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Killawar

Arena Settings Options

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So I was looking at all the settings you could alter in Arena today and was wondering what it'd take to, say, slap an option in there to shut off things like "PvP effects" and Archetype bonuses (basically revert it back to pre-issue 13 through arena). I know and have talked to quite a few people in-game that don't care for I13 and onward PvP (I don't myself). It'd be cool if there could be a setting (at least in arena) for people like us. 

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11 hours ago, Killawar said:

So I was looking at all the settings you could alter in Arena today and was wondering what it'd take to, say, slap an option in there to shut off things like "PvP effects" and Archetype bonuses (basically revert it back to pre-issue 13 through arena). I know and have talked to quite a few people in-game that don't care for I13 and onward PvP (I don't myself). It'd be cool if there could be a setting (at least in arena) for people like us. 

I don't think it's possible given the way PvP values work since self-affecting powers use the type of zone you're in to determine their effects, and if you disable the "PvP" flag, well... you wouldn't be able to PvP.


@macskull/@Not Mac

Proc information and chance calculator spreadsheet (last updated 25JUL20)

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7 hours ago, macskull said:

I don't think it's possible given the way PvP values work since self-affecting powers use the type of zone you're in to determine their effects, and if you disable the "PvP" flag, well... you wouldn't be able to PvP.

Then could a flashback system for PvP zones be implemented? For instance, old Sirens Call - with the pre-issue 13 balancing? If it's purely zone-based, couldn't there just be a different 'zone' added? 

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the problem we have here is that really, only the devs can say how much work it is

 

the rest of us would just be speculating 

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4 hours ago, MJB said:

the problem we have here is that really, only the devs can say how much work it is

 

the rest of us would just be speculating 

WTB dev comment pst

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1 hour ago, Killawar said:

WTB dev comment pst

You won’t get one.

 

they don’t care.

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Posted (edited)

I think another important thing to remember is that considering all the changes that have gone into the game in the 11.5 years since I13 dropped, even under the old rules the game wouldn't be the same anymore - there's been powerset proliferation, new powersets, new mechanics, and new IO sets. My earlier point re: PvP zones - currently the game uses the zone you're in to determine how self-affecting powers work and the target of your powers to determine how ally- or enemy-affecting powers work. It's probably possible to get the game to ignore the "target is player" flag but you'd have to balance every single power against that otherwise you'd end up with weird cases like taunt being autohit and a base 75% chance to hit instead of 50%. Even if you do manage to get that work, some of the pre-I13 mechanics wouldn't exist anymore because the powers definitions associated with them were removed (things like unresisted Scourge, unresisted crits, 11% of Blaster damage being unresisted, Defender debuffs being unresisted, etc.).

 

Those that played pre-I13 will remember how you got kills when everyone was at the resist cap - blueside you leaned on unresisted Defender debuffs and unresisted Blaster damage, and redside you leaned on unresisted AS crits and unresisted Scourge. Take away unresisted debuffs and damage and you're back to the current system with DR off, and I am probably not the only one who remembers the "knockback or TK into double/triple AS spikes" 8v8 meta that was probably the most un-fun PvP has ever been in this game.

Edited by macskull

@macskull/@Not Mac

Proc information and chance calculator spreadsheet (last updated 25JUL20)

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, macskull said:

I think another important thing to remember is that considering all the changes that have gone into the game in the 11.5 years since I13 dropped, even under the old rules the game wouldn't be the same anymore - there's been powerset proliferation, new powersets, new mechanics, and new IO sets. My earlier point re: PvP zones - currently the game uses the zone you're in to determine how self-affecting powers work and the target of your powers to determine how ally- or enemy-affecting powers work. It's probably possible to get the game to ignore the "target is player" flag but you'd have to balance every single power against that otherwise you'd end up with weird cases like taunt being autohit and a base 75% chance to hit instead of 50%. Even if you do manage to get that work, some of the pre-I13 mechanics wouldn't exist anymore because the powers definitions associated with them were removed (things like unresisted Scourge, unresisted crits, 11% of Blaster damage being unresisted, Defender debuffs being unresisted, etc.).

 

Those that played pre-I13 will remember how you got kills when everyone was at the resist cap - blueside you leaned on unresisted Defender debuffs and unresisted Blaster damage, and redside you leaned on unresisted AS crits and unresisted Scourge. Take away unresisted debuffs and damage and you're back to the current system with DR off, and I am probably not the only one who remembers the "knockback or TK into double/triple AS spikes" 8v8 meta that was probably the most un-fun PvP has ever been in this game.

Power prolif isn't really a point against going back to a better version of PvP - or at least giving other people the option to play the game in a different way. Willpower was broken across the board when it came out and was adjusted accordingly. Bio and Rad are already pushing things a bit over the top and likely need adjustments in general too; proliferation has never been a problem in PvP, it's always been the fact that sets themselves have been overtuned (new sets, not proliferated ones). Speaking all the hypotheticals of what 'could' be broken is nothing more than that - hypothetical, and a 'potentially broken' powerset is still a heck of a lot better than what we're dealing with now. Never in my years have I heard of an AT limit in 8v8 until Issue 13 hit.

 

Powers working the same as they did in PvE was pretty much how it worked beforehand, so the "balance every single power" is pretty moot too (especially since the "balance every single power" is what we're working with right now and it was a terrible idea ('PvP Effects' - no)). The only thing that would be inconsistent is the 75% - > 50% base hit chance, which, yeah, that'd need to be adjusted and would probably take some time. 

 

As far as I know things like crits and scourge are resisted now by NPC characters as well (Assass Strike an Unstopped Minotaur in ITF and it gets reduced appropriately). 

 

TK was always unfun in general and should've been able to be mitigated like normal CC (classified as a hold, etc). That would've solved it. Everything being resistable and stacking res with AS and whatnot not being resistable? Easy fix: Find an appropriate amount of resistance for, if needed, crits/AS to ignore. Besides, with the way it is now (toggles being suppressed, not shut off when CC'd) you could just do setups with CC and burst someone down like that. It'd certainly be a lot more interactive than 8v8 kickballs now where it's a game of "3...2...1..." countdowns and PPM RNG salads.

 

If you reverted it back and people stacked res's to cap, even still, they couldn't cover all their bases. What, are you going to stack teams of X AT's that boost resistances so that you're capped on everything, then get CC'd and blown up because you have a measly 1660 HP cap? Even 25% damage - especially now - is still a lot (stalkers hit upwards of 1k with AS/3 - 4 damage procs), you could still kill someone like that. It also wouldn't be the 'current system with DR off' since players wouldn't be fed a ton of free resistances with the AT-zone bonuses and other hidden 'pvp effects' and stats; people would have to work to get those resistances by targeting different IO sets and likely have to sacrifice a lot of the proc enhancements that make current PvP little more than RNG-proc salads. 

 

Besides, I'm not saying "change the entirety of PvP", I'm saying give the people who don't like awful I-13 a chance to play another way. As it stands, CoH is still the alt-grind, and without the OG's (Paragon Studios) cranking out new story content and whatnot, the alt-game is gonna get stale. PvP is pretty much an endless resource, and giving people different ways to play it would make the game hold a lot more attention anyway. Most of the people I talk to in-game dislike I-13 and don't play PvP because of it. You could have all those people back in the fold with just a simple flashback map to old SC (and patch) without disrupting the current PvPers who like to play their 8v8 3 blaster "because they're too broken" limit. 

Edited by Killawar

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1 hour ago, Killawar said:

Power prolif isn't really a point against going back to a better version of PvP - or at least giving other people the option to play the game in a different way. Willpower was broken across the board when it came out and was adjusted accordingly. Bio and Rad are already pushing things a bit over the top and likely need adjustments in general too; proliferation has never been a problem in PvP, it's always been the fact that sets themselves have been overtuned (new sets, not proliferated ones). Speaking all the hypotheticals of what 'could' be broken is nothing more than that - hypothetical, and a 'potentially broken' powerset is still a heck of a lot better than what we're dealing with now. Never in my years have I heard of an AT limit in 8v8 until Issue 13 hit.

I don't think anyone here is pretending that the current system is better than the old system - it's different for sure, and the team diversity you see is smaller, but it's not a bad system. I'm not saying that powerset proliferation, etc. is a reason to not go back to the old system, but all the changes since I13 mean even pre-I13-style PvP wouldn't be quite the same as you remember it. As an example, look at what happened with I12 - Psi Blasters changed the meta heroside and Fortunatas completely broke the redside meta. Re: the AT limit, it didn't exist before I13 because a portion of your team was dedicated to buffers to ensure people didn't explode (Sonics, Therms) and could move around unsuppressed (Kins) and debuffers to cut through the 75% resistance everyone had (Rads heroside, mostly). Under the current system an AT limit exists because while the high damage output is still there there is no way to appreciably increase survivability to counter it since damage resistance and defense DR so harshly.

1 hour ago, Killawar said:

Powers working the same as they did in PvE was pretty much how it worked beforehand, so the "balance every single power" is pretty moot too (especially since the "balance every single power" is what we're working with right now and it was a terrible idea ('PvP Effects' - no)). The only thing that would be inconsistent is the 75% - > 50% base hit chance, which, yeah, that'd need to be adjusted and would probably take some time. 

(Almost) every single power was rebalanced for the I13 rules including new power definitions and effects. It's not as simple as flipping a switch to going back to the old system, you'd have to undo all the I13 changes and put the pre-I13 values back in. It would absolutely take some time, and that's where it becomes a question of "is the amount of developer time and resources it would take to do this worth the results" and I'm reasonably certain that the answer is no. This is why the PvP community is asking for smaller, more incremental changes, because those are less likely to get dismissed outright.

1 hour ago, Killawar said:

As far as I know things like crits and scourge are resisted now by NPC characters as well (Assass Strike an Unstopped Minotaur in ITF and it gets reduced appropriately). 

Unresisted damage and debuffs (where they existed) were only ever a thing in PvP, outside of a few bugged powers that were corrected pretty rapidly.

1 hour ago, Killawar said:

TK was always unfun in general and should've been able to be mitigated like normal CC (classified as a hold, etc). That would've solved it. Everything being resistable and stacking res with AS and whatnot not being resistable? Easy fix: Find an appropriate amount of resistance for, if needed, crits/AS to ignore. Besides, with the way it is now (toggles being suppressed, not shut off when CC'd) you could just do setups with CC and burst someone down like that. It'd certainly be a lot more interactive than 8v8 kickballs now where it's a game of "3...2...1..." countdowns and PPM RNG salads.

I'm starting to think at this point that you haven't seriously PvP'd in the post-I13 environment that you'd bring up TK like that. TK in pre-I13 PvP worked just like it did in PvE, but you could basically ignore it as long as you had a couple Breakfrees running or were teamed with a Kin. Post-I13 TK works completely differently - there's no repel and the hold (which there is no protection against) lasts until you take damage or TK detoggles. Mez spikes can be (and are) a thing under the current ruleset but it still requires coordination since the hold duration is only a few seconds tops. I'm not sure what game you were playing but the "3 2 1 spike" countdown has been a thing since long before I13.

1 hour ago, Killawar said:

If you reverted it back and people stacked res's to cap, even still, they couldn't cover all their bases. What, are you going to stack teams of X AT's that boost resistances so that you're capped on everything, then get CC'd and blown up because you have a measly 1660 HP cap? Even 25% damage - especially now - is still a lot (stalkers hit upwards of 1k with AS/3 - 4 damage procs), you could still kill someone like that. It also wouldn't be the 'current system with DR off' since players wouldn't be fed a ton of free resistances with the AT-zone bonuses and other hidden 'pvp effects' and stats; people would have to work to get those resistances by targeting different IO sets and likely have to sacrifice a lot of the proc enhancements that make current PvP little more than RNG-proc salads. 

I'm very confused now. If you eliminate DR and free base resistances teams start running Sonics/Therms again which means everyone gets to the resistance cap anyways except there's no longer unresisted damage or debuffs (aside from AS crit damage) so the only way you will get kills against a competent team is mez or knockback spikes coupled with a pair of Stalkers. It's basically what happened in the I13-I15 timeframe and that was some of the worst PvP this game has ever had. It's like you're pretending team play doesn't exist. This is why I'm saying that you can't really pick and choose which parts of the old system to bring back - everything is tied together and if you only partially implement things you will get unpredictable results.

1 hour ago, Killawar said:

Besides, I'm not saying "change the entirety of PvP", I'm saying give the people who don't like awful I-13 a chance to play another way. As it stands, CoH is still the alt-grind, and without the OG's (Paragon Studios) cranking out new story content and whatnot, the alt-game is gonna get stale. PvP is pretty much an endless resource, and giving people different ways to play it would make the game hold a lot more attention anyway. Most of the people I talk to in-game dislike I-13 and don't play PvP because of it. You could have all those people back in the fold with just a simple flashback map to old SC (and patch) without disrupting the current PvPers who like to play their 8v8 3 blaster "because they're too broken" limit. 

I think most of the current PvP community would prefer to go back to the pre-I13 ruleset if it were an option (even though there'd be a steep learning curve for many of them). You seem to think it's as easy as adding a flashback map and small patch and boom we have pre-I13 PvP again, but I'm reasonably sure that if it were so simple it would've been done during the private server years.

 

TL;DR: Most PvPers would probably prefer the pre-I13 system to the current one but even if it were magically changed overnight PvP now wouldn't be the same as it was then, and in reality it's not as simple as flipping a switch so it would require significant developer time and resources for little benefit to the game as a whole, so a wholesale reversion of the I13 changes is highly unlikely.


@macskull/@Not Mac

Proc information and chance calculator spreadsheet (last updated 25JUL20)

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, macskull said:

I don't think anyone here is pretending that the current system is better than the old system - it's different for sure, and the team diversity you see is smaller, but it's not a bad system. I'm not saying that powerset proliferation, etc. is a reason to not go back to the old system, but all the changes since I13 mean even pre-I13-style PvP wouldn't be quite the same as you remember it. As an example, look at what happened with I12 - Psi Blasters changed the meta heroside and Fortunatas completely broke the redside meta. Re: the AT limit, it didn't exist before I13 because a portion of your team was dedicated to buffers to ensure people didn't explode (Sonics, Therms) and could move around unsuppressed (Kins) and debuffers to cut through the 75% resistance everyone had (Rads heroside, mostly). Under the current system an AT limit exists because while the high damage output is still there there is no way to appreciably increase survivability to counter it since damage resistance and defense DR so harshly.

Yes, 'different' in a bad way. The diversity is smaller (in both builds and viable ATs/powersets) - that's bad. The balance is worse (evidenced by the former) - that's bad. I don't really care if it's "the same" (though, honestly, anything that's not Incarnate-level stuff would be similar enough, that's for sure, as I expect Siren's Call would be pretty much the same), and it's not like I'm suggesting a total overhaul, just the option for people who don't like the current system (which is, I'd venture to say, most people) to be able to go back and play how they want to. As for Psis and Forts, simple fix: Psi-resist builds, stacking to-hit. Not just that, now you have IO sets that give resistances (because that used to be a very rare thing before the PTR update before Live went down), so you can build against problematic sets (like Psis back then, for instance) in both the resistance department and the -recharge department (with recharge resistance). If anything, the current system - without the Issue 13 stuff - would be a better playing ground for balance given that people could then build specifically against the things they do not like dealing with. There're more options now, and without Issue-13 people wouldn't be locked to playing a specific way just because of an AT choice.

 

The AT limit didn't exist because a portion of your team was dedicated to doing something, meaning you built your team in a specified way - that was your choice - and so could play the game that way. Now we have a SINGLE AT that is solely responsible for altering the structure of a team, which, if I'm not mistaken, is what is often known as 'broken'. Resistance and defense DR'ing so harshly doesn't just kill Sonics/Therms, it also kills every other AT that functions defensively (Brutes, Tanks, etc.). If you wish to get literal, the Issue-13 system is worse than the old one, as it has far less people being able to play the game how they'd like to.

15 hours ago, macskull said:

(Almost) every single power was rebalanced for the I13 rules including new power definitions and effects. It's not as simple as flipping a switch to going back to the old system, you'd have to undo all the I13 changes and put the pre-I13 values back in. It would absolutely take some time, and that's where it becomes a question of "is the amount of developer time and resources it would take to do this worth the results" and I'm reasonably certain that the answer is no. This is why the PvP community is asking for smaller, more incremental changes, because those are less likely to get dismissed outright.

But you already have a basic template for how powers should work (since it's the PvE version of the game). No, it's not flipping a switch, but it's not working from scratch either. Yes, it'd take some time, but 'small incremental changes' won't fix the problem since the problem isn't 'small and incremental'. Asking the devs for small changes to fix the issue is in retrospect just asking them to waste their time - since none of what is being changed will alter the game in the drastic way it was - that essentially ruined PvP. 

 

15 hours ago, macskull said:

Unresisted damage and debuffs (where they existed) were only ever a thing in PvP, outside of a few bugged powers that were corrected pretty rapidly.

AStrike wasn't resisted before in PvE by mobs. Scourge was.

 

15 hours ago, macskull said:

I'm starting to think at this point that you haven't seriously PvP'd in the post-I13 environment that you'd bring up TK like that. TK in pre-I13 PvP worked just like it did in PvE, but you could basically ignore it as long as you had a couple Breakfrees running or were teamed with a Kin. Post-I13 TK works completely differently - there's no repel and the hold (which there is no protection against) lasts until you take damage or TK detoggles. Mez spikes can be (and are) a thing under the current ruleset but it still requires coordination since the hold duration is only a few seconds tops. I'm not sure what game you were playing but the "3 2 1 spike" countdown has been a thing since long before I13.

Countdowns were harder to pull off given that:

Melees weren't invalid, meaning you either could be dealing with someone with a higher HP/resist pool

Could be getting taunted off targets yourself.

Could be getting hard-cc'd (Seismic ate Acrobatics and without an extra Mag protection (like CM, etc) you'd be getting held). Same w/ KOB and the like (if you weren't running Acro/had team prot).

 

Now, it's much more 'preschool countdown', far less setup.

 

15 hours ago, macskull said:

I'm very confused now. If you eliminate DR and free base resistances teams start running Sonics/Therms again which means everyone gets to the resistance cap anyways except there's no longer unresisted damage or debuffs (aside from AS crit damage) so the only way you will get kills against a competent team is mez or knockback spikes coupled with a pair of Stalkers. It's basically what happened in the I13-I15 timeframe and that was some of the worst PvP this game has ever had. It's like you're pretending team play doesn't exist. This is why I'm saying that you can't really pick and choose which parts of the old system to bring back - everything is tied together and if you only partially implement things you will get unpredictable results.

How can you compare eliminating DR's to two issues where DR's existed? "Resistance and defense powers have greater diminishing returns when stacked than in PvE, and lower caps." - that's from the I-13 patch notes (meaning DR's existed). This means your comparison of I-13/15 is moot, since DR's actually did exist there. It's funny that you're stating the "worst pvp to ever exist" is literally the issue I'm saying we should revert. That aside, if the game functioned like it used to, what's the hole in Sonics/Therm? Or, in other words, what's the damage type that they don't give resistance to? Psis? Thanks to prolif, there's a lot more of those running around (Psi melee, you still have Forts, other ranged sources of Psi damage). It's like you're pretending that sonics/therm gives every type of resistance in the game - and it doesn't, there's a hole there. So, if everyone's running something that isn't resistant to one thing, why aren't you then running that one thing if your'e sick of seeing it? Of course you can't 'pick and choose' what parts to bring back, but the old system tied together is still better than what we have now. And no, you can certainly predict what would happen - and sometimes be accurate in those assumptions. If you couldn't even remotely accurately predict what would happen, then every balance patch in every game would look like a mess, but that's not the case. Some patches are far better than others. 

 

Eliminating DR is just one part (because Issue 8 PvP and the like didn't have those), you know that. Secondly, the most popular versions of the game never were 8v8's (or Areans for that matter), it was mostly zone PvP anyway, so why are you trying to suggest that the game remain exclusively suited for the niche groups of people when most of the people played Zone games?

15 hours ago, macskull said:

I think most of the current PvP community would prefer to go back to the pre-I13 ruleset if it were an option (even though there'd be a steep learning curve for many of them). You seem to think it's as easy as adding a flashback map and small patch and boom we have pre-I13 PvP again, but I'm reasonably sure that if it were so simple it would've been done during the private server years.

Not necessarily if the Devs in question either liked the current PvP system or just didn't care about it enough to change it in any meaningful way. I'm not sure a learning curve would be that big of a thing either considering it would function like the actual game does now (that's one of the cons of the current system in that it's totally alien to new players who are already trying to understand the base game. Throwing a bunch of DR's, hidden stats, "PvP effects" and whatnot at them is only serving to dissuade them from PvP'ing in the first place).

 

15 hours ago, macskull said:

Most PvPers would probably prefer the pre-I13 system to the current one but even if it were magically changed overnight PvP now wouldn't be the same as it was then, and in reality it's not as simple as flipping a switch so it would require significant developer time and resources for little benefit to the game as a whole, so a wholesale reversion of the I13 changes is highly unlikely.

Of course it wouldn't be the same, but I don't think anyone is asking it to be 'the same', just better - and functioning like the "PvE" (actual) side of the game does so that it makes sense.

 

As far as benefiting the game very little as a whole, I don't think that's even close to an accurate statement. Look at WoW, look at League, DotA, Overwatch - a ton of games, really, and the thing that they all have in common is that they, comparatively to CoH, didn't treat their PvP community as third-class citizens (more like second-class, but that's another threat all together). Back in Wrath of the Lich King, for instance, PvP was what brought WoW a ton of added interest (with 3's matches and the like). League is purely a PvP game and nearly infinitely renewable because of it (because PvP is one of the most efficient uses of renewable content, as it's nearly a guarantee to be introduced into a different enough situation to feel novel or at the very least interesting). If CoH could get PvP back into its old line of interest (i-8 or sooner, when things still made sense) then it would not only hold interest and likely gain some as a result (permanently, since that's the nature of alluring PvP), but it would also take some pressure off the Devs in the future since they wouldn't be the only reliable thing to keep interest in the game, they'd have a renewable interest-resource of PvP to hold people's attention - and time played. There'd be less pressure on them to push new stuff, and there'd be more people that could get into the game. The Devs would win and so would the community, the only problem, as you've mentioned, is that, in the present, nobody would win since the Devs would have to spend resources fixing it and the game would have a slow period of development because of it. 

 

But, long-term, it'd definitely be a good investment (there are still Wrath of the Lich King purely PvP private servers to this day because the balance was good enough to hold interest, and Wrath was, what, ten years ago?). We have a ton of other games that prove it. Games with bad PvP don't last as long on average, and those that do retain far less interest than the games that have decent/good PvP. 

Edited by Killawar

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Posted (edited)

I'm not going to quote everything you said point-by-point because a lot of what you're saying is wrong:

  • If you think you can build for meaningful psi resist while still hitting the other requirements for a PvP build you're woefully unfamiliar with building characters for PvP
  • The current 8v8 AT limit isn't solely due to Blasters, it also stops people from running wacky things like teams full of Tanks/Brutes/Stalkers/Masterminds
  • Scourge has never been unresisted outside of PvP
  • I feel like your discussion about spikes/countdowns is coming from somewhere other than team arena matches which doesn't make sense because that's pretty much the only place those happen and none of the points you raised make sense anyways
  • There are several different types of PvP in this game - 1v1, team arena matches, zone... 1v1s have always been rock/paper/scissors and the very nature of zone PvP makes it impossible to balance so that pretty much leaves team arena matches. Good balance should promote and revolve around teamwork because this is (and has always been) a team-oriented game, both in PvE and PvP
  • Until options to disable travel suppression and heal decay in the arena were added (I think it was I15?) the only way to turn those off was to turn off diminishing returns which resulted in the situation I described

It's time for a reality check here. I'll restate what I said earlier - most PvPers would probably prefer to go back to the old system but it's not going to happen here because it would be a huge chunk of developer time and resources for little overall benefit. Even when PvP was at its peak the PvP population made up a small fraction of the game's subscriber base and it's probably even smaller now. This game has never catered to PvPers and the casual-friendly nature of the game as a whole means most players just aren't interested in PvP in the first place. It makes no sense from a development standpoint to overhaul the PvP system when there is no guarantee of benefit and when most development efforts are focused around retaining the playerbase the game already has. That being said, the I25 code base is out there - if you're really interested in this being a thing and you have some coding knowledge and time on your hands, go wild.

 

I'm out, enjoy the rest of your weekend.

Edited by macskull
  • Like 1

@macskull/@Not Mac

Proc information and chance calculator spreadsheet (last updated 25JUL20)

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4 hours ago, macskull said:

If you think you can build for meaningful psi resist while still hitting the other requirements for a PvP build you're woefully unfamiliar with building characters for PvP

In the current system, yes, because of all the DR's/etc. If you're stating that you couldn't fit in anything meaningful, then that's flat-out incorrect. There are plenty of sets that give both Psi/toxic (a lot of the purple sets, actually). If you're stating that it would be 'impossible' because you don't want to give up stats in other areas then that'd be your personal issue. You only need to hit 60-90% recharge in the current system which is nowhere near perma hasten, There are single enhancements (Aegis, Imp. A.) that give flat-out psi res. Saying you couldn't switch out four enhancements (both those, and assuming you go for purples, finish out just two sets) for roughly 15-20% res right there is either incorrect, or you're just admitting to wanting to keep a greedy build against what you stated as previously problematic damage types. TLDR: Yes, you could, you just don't want to.

 

4 hours ago, macskull said:

The current 8v8 AT limit isn't solely due to Blasters, it also stops people from running wacky things like teams full of Tanks/Brutes/Stalkers/Masterminds

And my point is: When were their team limits back in the day? Because I haven't heard of any at all. The more artificial restrictions there are the worse the actual balance is. Artificial restrictions are pure indications of poor balance, plain and simple.

 

4 hours ago, macskull said:

Scourge has never been unresisted outside of PvP

That's what I said. I stated Astrike wasn't at one point. It is now - in both cases.

 

4 hours ago, macskull said:

I feel like your discussion about spikes/countdowns is coming from somewhere other than team arena matches which doesn't make sense because that's pretty much the only place those happen and none of the points you raised make sense anyways

So you point out "the other points" but these points you just describe as 'not making sense'. So you forfeit elaborating because you can't? Ok. 

 

4 hours ago, macskull said:

There are several different types of PvP in this game - 1v1, team arena matches, zone... 1v1s have always been rock/paper/scissors and the very nature of zone PvP makes it impossible to balance so that pretty much leaves team arena matches. Good balance should promote and revolve around teamwork because this is (and has always been) a team-oriented game, both in PvE and PvP

You're assuming there's no teamwork in zone pvp which is flat-out incorrect (or are you one of the people who didn't join teams in SC/RV back in the day and coordinate with random people to cap nods/win hot spots?) Yes, there's coordination in zones, it seems you weren't the person to go into them however and just stuck with arena. You seem to think 'balance' = ability, and that's not how things work. Disregarding other mediums for PvP is what got the system dealt the current hand it has, stating that things should continue on this way is both ignorant and insane. So because it's easier, it should be the primary focus? That's lazy game design, and clearly it hasn't worked out before, not to mention that route is the least enjoyable for the majority of the player base as 8v8s compared to Zone PvP or even 1v1s was the minority. You claiming that you should get the attention because your bracket is the lowest hanging fruit is ridiculous. 

 

And furthermore, no, it hasn't been a game about 'teamwork' and the like; you can certainly play on a team, but if this game actually was a game based around teamwork then I wouldn't be able to solo content that's made for eight people/solo AVs (which are the equal of raid bosses) by myself. This game has always been about everyone doing their thing the way they want to, and the majority of everyone was not 8v8, it was zone & smaller bracket Arena pvp.

4 hours ago, macskull said:

Until options to disable travel suppression and heal decay in the arena were added (I think it was I15?) the only way to turn those off was to turn off diminishing returns which resulted in the situation I described

No DR's with templates is obviously not the same as no DR's without them. Or, in other words, 'No DR's Issue 13" is not the same as PvE rules.

 

4 hours ago, macskull said:

most PvPers would probably prefer to go back to the old system

Yes

 

4 hours ago, macskull said:

it would be a huge chunk of developer time and resources for little overall benefit.

No, as stated above. Every single video game that remotely took care of its PvP had a vastly longer shelf life to the point that there are even private servers of better managed PvP versions of various games still running today, years later. It would be a huge chunk of resources, but it would be for a great benefit down the road.

 

4 hours ago, macskull said:

This game has never catered to PvPers and the casual-friendly nature of the game as a whole means most players just aren't interested in PvP in the first place.

Pre issue 13 was a casual version of PvP - that's what made it alluring to newer people. They don't get into it now because issue 13 is essentially an entirely different game from the one they're playing. You don't get new people with a system like that. Siren's Call was absolutely packed before Issue 13. Afterward? Nope. Even the big names like Hyper AI quit PvP'ing due to it.

 

4 hours ago, macskull said:

It makes no sense from a development standpoint to overhaul the PvP system when there is no guarantee of benefit and when most development efforts are focused around retaining the playerbase the game already has.

It certainly does when evidence shows that video games which have fun PvP retain more of their player base over time. History pretty much shows us that, yes, it's guaranteed that you will keep more people if there are more aspects of the game available. Right now, PvP is not available to most people due to the giant gap between game mechanics (PvE vs PvP).

 

It's not about being a dev, it's about making a suggestion, one that wouldn't even disrupt the issue 13 game that you (apparently?) don't want to give the alternative for. "Small fixes" won't make it any better for you since a "small problem" wasn't the thing that wrecked it. As I've said before, you're basically asking the devs to waste their time on "small fixes" because those fixes won't solve the problem. 

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On 4/19/2020 at 7:36 PM, Killawar said:

Pre issue 13 was a casual version of PvP - that's what made it alluring to newer people. They don't get into it now because issue 13 is essentially an entirely different game from the one they're playing. You don't get new people with a system like that. Siren's Call was absolutely packed before Issue 13. Afterward? Nope. Even the big names like Hyper AI quit PvP'ing due to it.

AHAHAHAHAHA on many counts.

 

1. PVP at the higher-end has never been extremely casual friendly. Teams that had access to leveling exploits had a huge advantage over teams that didn't, and a lot of what is seen as "X was viable" pre-i13 was just people making due with what they had and a higher skill-cap than what we have now.

2. A big reason for Siren's not being packed is that in this game, the market is pretty damn reasonable, and getting to 50 is pretty trivial. There is very little incentive to play at less-than-full strength - especially with Base TP, base buffs and t3's being a thing.

3. lolhyperai. Big name in a deadish game?

 

Finally, I do generally agree with you that artificial restrictions indicate bad balance, but the fact is that we've always had those. Veng stacking pre-i13, stalags and poisonous ray in the first post-i13 league, blaster and poison limits now (which are only a problem in the light of having no mitigation against those - blaster damage in a 1v1 environment is a lot closer to pre-i13 than it was on live). But those rules are also a reflection of how fast we're exploring the "meta" this time around. You have 6 teams (rare, rng, vori, inc, ggz and gboti) that are constantly exploring possible viable comps at what is an insanely fast clip, especially compared to what it could have been pre-i13. There are more rules now because we have explored more permutations of possible team comps. This time around, I don't think it has much to do with an indication of improper balance - it's more just that the ease of leveling has created an disincentive for forbearance and incentivized the exploration of the meta a lot more than pre-homecoming. That has probably kept teams a bit more interested in the game than they would have otherwise been.

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3 hours ago, barrier said:

You have 6 teams (rare, rng, vori, inc, ggz and gboti) that are constantly exploring possible viable comps at what is an insanely fast clip, especially compared to what it could have been pre-i13. 

Sloth says hello.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, barrier said:

1. PVP at the higher-end has never been extremely casual friendly. Teams that had access to leveling exploits had a huge advantage over teams that didn't, and a lot of what is seen as "X was viable" pre-i13 was just people making due with what they had and a higher skill-cap than what we have now.

You're talking as if most of the community competitively PvP'd, much less competitively PvP'd in Arena. The majority of PvP was zone, and the 8v8 bracket was the least popular (as is with every higher player-count bracket in the vast majority of MMOs). Casual-friendly is relative here, and relatively speaking, yes, it was far more casual-friendly than the other patches I-13 and onward due to a much worse learning curve (as the game hardly functions as it does in PvE, meaning there are far more mechanics to learn - a lot of which affect builds, which would then mean changing one's build to match it). Post-i13, there's a ton more investment, time, and effort that it takes to get over the curve as opposed to the patches before. 

5 hours ago, barrier said:

A big reason for Siren's not being packed is that in this game, the market is pretty damn reasonable, and getting to 50 is pretty trivial. There is very little incentive to play at less-than-full strength - especially with Base TP, base buffs and t3's being a thing.

You go watch some SC old videos. The people that play there all have their accolades and IOs. It's not a 'full power' issue, it was the opposite; SC offered a way to play that was moderate. Nobody had all their powers, meaning fights were far less exhausting/lengthy, and the fights themselves were more 'balanced'.

 

5 hours ago, barrier said:

3. lolhyperai. Big name in a deadish game?

And? The guy was one of the top PvP'ers on Freedom. How does his criticism of I-13 and the like bear any less validity because of the game's age? 

 

  

5 hours ago, barrier said:

But those rules are also a reflection of how fast we're exploring the "meta" this time around. You have 6 teams (rare, rng, vori, inc, ggz and gboti) that are constantly exploring possible viable comps at what is an insanely fast clip, especially compared to what it could have been pre-i13. There are more rules now because we have explored more permutations of possible team comps.

 

It is impossible for a team of 6 to 'out-discover' an entire alive community. Despite its unpopularity, the game still had more people PvP'ing (much more playing) than we have now. All that is discovered was already discovered, it's just that this community now is more tight-knit than it was before, so these 'discoveries' are conveyed at a faster rate. There are more rules because balance is an issue, and the issue we have here is the one called 13.

 

  

5 hours ago, barrier said:

This time around, I don't think it has much to do with an indication of improper balance - it's more just that the ease of leveling has created an disincentive for forbearance and incentivized the exploration of the meta a lot more than pre-homecoming. That has probably kept teams a bit more interested in the game than they would have otherwise been.

 

Ease of leveling has nothing to do with game balance. Again, look at WotLK Arena private servers, they've been around for years - and every class is viable there. Perhaps not every spec, but even still that's a far better environment than what we have. There's no "Mage" limit in a 5v5, there's no 'pvp effects' on powers, there's merely just a stat - that you have the choice to attain or not. Leveling speed plays a part in development, sure, but to state that we have more high level toons than Live did is inaccurate. What we didn't have was a community that was this tight-knit (albiet tight-knit compared to other games, but not to the point that it is now). Artificial rules have always been an indicator of imbalance, and Issue-13 has a ton of them. Any time the functionality of the game has to change, it's a bad sign. The only thing in an LK server that changes - and isn't even forced upon you - is a stat, found on gear, that you can equip. In I-13 there is no choice, which is merely why I'm suggesting that, at some point, people get the option to play on an Issue-8 style (or sooner, whichever) version of PvP maps as a flashback. People could keep their i-13 metas that way, and other people could play the game closer to what it actually is. 

Edited by Killawar

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On 4/19/2020 at 7:17 PM, Waypoint said:

Hey, are you the same Killawar from Virtue? Glad to see you're back man!

Nah, I'm a different guy. I was on Freedom. 

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