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ATO procs: Bring non Scrapper/Stalkers up to par


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For those two classes, their ATOs (Crit Hit bonus/Crit Chance Up proc for Scrappers, Build Up Refresh/Hide chance for Stalkers) are heads and shoulders above every single other class's ATOs, they're just complete game changers that catapult those classes well beyond performance without them. 

 

Dom/Controller's Firey Orb/Energy Font are basically useless, they die in content about as easily as those veteran shield pets. Dom's chance for +DMG is also pretty anemic, eating a small red is arguably twice as good. If Stalkers are over here getting free crits and build up refreshes, the +DMG on Dom should be on par with hitting build up. Controllers get a damage proc, which, y'know, alright, I guess. I feel like ATOs should do more than that given how tailor-made for the AT the Scrapper/Stalker ones are, maybe the ATO giving a bigger bonus to Containment hits would be better. Doms are a little harder, since it's a case of have vs have nots (Regular Dom vs. Permadom). The +DMG should definitely be higher, maybe a global damage proc more like the SoAs get would be better for the Firey Orb ATO. I would say a chance to proc to fill up a chunk of Domination, but, again, that'd be mostly useless for Permadoms.

 

Corruptors get +Health/+End on one of their procs, but Defenders just get +Health on their equivalent version, for unclear reasons. I'd like for Defenders to get the same Health/End at the least. Corruptors get a fire damage proc which is nice (not as nice as Stalker/Scrapper procs, but, still nice) where as Defenders get a PBAoE absorb shield. At the very least, I'd like for there to be another minor trait on that absorb shield to boost up the team, maybe a Absorb/minor End discount in a PBAoE. For Corruptors... maybe their damage ATO could globally increase the HP% range that Scourge will kick in at? That sounds like it'd be obnoxious as hell to code, though. 

 

MM's I can't really speak on because I've only (ever) gotten one to 50, but, I understand that their ATOs are pretty viable to pet durability, so, probably should leave those be (or give them higher values, even).

 

Tankers get a +Res(All) proc, and then +Res(Most) on their 6 slotted sets. Maybe a small +Def(All) proc would be nice as a counterpart to the +Res to benefit sets that are already heavy resist sets versus an absorb shield? This one I could see people complaining about, so maybe a +Def down the line for a new ATO set would be a better idea in this instance, I dunno.

 

SoAs, the -Dmg/Terrorize is an odd bit of extraordinarily minor soft control in a AT that doesn't really warrant it. Although, from a thematic standpoint, I'm sure it's neat. An ATO that functions as a mini-Leadership that applies smaller buffs in a smaller radius might be more on brand with how they work, but, again, that sounds obnoxious to code.

 

Kheldians, well, if you're monoform, form empowerment isn't exactly great. Global heal proc is... okay, I guess. It's not really needed at all on a well built Kheld given all the survival tools they already have. Maybe another form empowerment where it shores up the form's weaknesses, opposite of the first one. So humanform +DMG, squid +DEF, dwarf +DMG? That does again have the issue where it's a thumb to the eyes of monoform khelds, but, on the other hand, you don't use 2/3rds of the powerset, then, y'know, you don't get 2/3rds of the effect, I guess.

 

Blaster's status protection chance is another proc that is just completely outclassed by eating an inspiration. A proc that gives them a low chance to globally crit on blast attacks replacing it would likely be better.

Brute's procs are alright, I think. Not as big a game changer as the Stalker/Scrapper ones, but the +Fury is nice, and +Regen/+End is also pretty decent while leveling. Maybe just up the potency a little. I'm not 100% sold on them, but I feel like they're good for what you think about when it comes to playing the AT: Being a ball that just rolls over mobs.

 

This is mostly just shooting from the hip, I'd welcome any other suggestions.

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For Blasters, something that truly screamed "Defiance!" would fit. To keep it somewhat in tune with what's already there, I'd say that the proc should have a chance to trigger when a mez is applied, and if it triggers, it applies a short (2-3 second) break free effect and apply a strong +damage for the same duration.

Another Blaster option would be to put a passive effect on the slotted power, allowing it to be used while mezzed, just like the low level powers.

 

For Brutes, I'd say a useful effect would be achance for a short buff that prevents Fury from degrading.

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1 hour ago, Indystruck said:

For those two classes, their ATOs (Crit Hit bonus/Crit Chance Up proc for Scrappers, Build Up Refresh/Hide chance for Stalkers) are heads and shoulders above every single other class's ATOs, they're just complete game changers that catapult those classes well beyond performance without them. 

I agree with you, but many may argue the opposite: that they're overpowered. They should be nerfed and everything else shouldn't be buffed. I don't advocate for that, but many will not reach the same conclusion, but I think if you want changes to happen, you should expect and appease your oppositions.

 

Also, some people may really like how the ATOs are now and don't want the change. I think instead of "replacing" existing ATOs, we should just add more. However, give a stipulation that you may *only choose to slot in two full sets* of ATOs, so that there is a choice between two ATO sets instead of being able to slot in 3 different huge ATO bonus sets.

1 hour ago, Indystruck said:

Dom/Controller's Firey Orb/Energy Font are basically useless, they die in content about as easily as those veteran shield pets. Dom's chance for +DMG is also pretty anemic, eating a small red is arguably twice as good. If Stalkers are over here getting free crits and build up refreshes, the +DMG on Dom should be on par with hitting build up. Controllers get a damage proc, which, y'know, alright, I guess. I feel like ATOs should do more than that given how tailor-made for the AT the Scrapper/Stalker ones are, maybe the ATO giving a bigger bonus to Containment hits would be better. Doms are a little harder, since it's a case of have vs have nots (Regular Dom vs. Permadom). The +DMG should definitely be higher, maybe a global damage proc more like the SoAs get would be better for the Firey Orb ATO. I would say a chance to proc to fill up a chunk of Domination, but, again, that'd be mostly useless for Permadoms.

I 100% agree here. The Dominator/Controller Fiery Orb ATOs are almost entirely useless. The proc is nice on the Controllers' side, but IMO, not competitive with what it could/should be. I agree with the global damage proc idea as well to help out the AT with damage, personally I had an idea that you had a Controller ATO and for one particular power you get its magnitude doubled, like Domination, but for only one particular power, making them much more equivalent in terms of lockdown capability. Dominators IMO, are just way better at lockdown because of Domination, giving Controllers this ability on just one serious ability would make them more competitive. 

 

This is where I 100% believe they should throw a lot more boons, currently these two ATs are struggling to keep up with teams and are often being overlooked. 

1 hour ago, Indystruck said:

Corruptors get +Health/+End on one of their procs, but Defenders just get +Health on their equivalent version, for unclear reasons. I'd like for Defenders to get the same Health/End at the least. Corruptors get a fire damage proc which is nice (not as nice as Stalker/Scrapper procs, but, still nice) where as Defenders get a PBAoE absorb shield. At the very least, I'd like for there to be another minor trait on that absorb shield to boost up the team, maybe a Absorb/minor End discount in a PBAoE. For Corruptors... maybe their damage ATO could globally increase the HP% range that Scourge will kick in at? That sounds like it'd be obnoxious as hell to code, though. 

Defenders get Vigilance which reduces their end costs, giving one more boon to Defenders vs Corruptors is a bit of a "slight." Defenders get so many distinct building advantages now over Corruptors that I can see why Corruptors are given the endurance help here. 

 

I'm all for the Scourge idea, love it actually. It would give a huge boon to pick Corruptor over Defender instead of Defenders right now just getting many default advantages in terms of building and performance overall.

1 hour ago, Indystruck said:

MM's I can't really speak on because I've only (ever) gotten one to 50, but, I understand that their ATOs are pretty viable to pet durability, so, probably should leave those be (or give them higher values, even).

MM's have very good ATOs! I personally would not want them to change. 

1 hour ago, Indystruck said:

Tankers get a +Res(All) proc, and then +Res(Most) on their 6 slotted sets. Maybe a small +Def(All) proc would be nice as a counterpart to the +Res to benefit sets that are already heavy resist sets versus an absorb shield? This one I could see people complaining about, so maybe a +Def down the line for a new ATO set would be a better idea in this instance, I dunno.

I don't really feel like they need it, Tankers are just very well off at the moment. 

1 hour ago, Indystruck said:

SoAs, the -Dmg/Terrorize is an odd bit of extraordinarily minor soft control in a AT that doesn't really warrant it. Although, from a thematic standpoint, I'm sure it's neat. An ATO that functions as a mini-Leadership that applies smaller buffs in a smaller radius might be more on brand with how they work, but, again, that sounds obnoxious to code.

What SoA's need are specialized ATO's for their given career paths (4) which would come out to 8, rather than a measely 2. I'd very much settle just for 2 more ATO's to help out, I don't really think Fortunata/Crab really need more help and are already fairly strong.

 

What I think Night Widow/Bane need are replicas of the "re-hide" ATO for Stalkers. This would greatly boost the AT's damage output, make them much more competitive and a much more viable pick than how they currently are. Stalkers get high damage, AS, more variety to choose from, more exotic damage types, high base HP, etc. the only thing Night Widow/Bane have atm is their party buffs which just aren't cutting it when teams already have Maneuvers going around.

 

Even as well off as Fortunata/Crab are, I could see some ATOs to slightly boost their performance overall, but honestly even if there was nothing for them, I think they're still very well off.

1 hour ago, Indystruck said:

Kheldians, well, if you're monoform, form empowerment isn't exactly great. Global heal proc is... okay, I guess. It's not really needed at all on a well built Kheld given all the survival tools they already have. Maybe another form empowerment where it shores up the form's weaknesses, opposite of the first one. So humanform +DMG, squid +DEF, dwarf +DMG? That does again have the issue where it's a thumb to the eyes of monoform khelds, but, on the other hand, you don't use 2/3rds of the powerset, then, y'know, you don't get 2/3rds of the effect, I guess.

/shrug

 

I don't know where to begin with Khelds, they just are not competitive at ST damage at all unfortunately, they have a tougher time than most AT's building defense, the forms shut off human form toggles, they're a complicated AT, with very complicated fixes that would be needed. I really don't know what to do for them as ATOs, they really need a multi-step approached buff before an ATO is really a consideration for them. I can definitely agree though, that the ATOs currently given to them are somewhere between "useful sometimes" to "totally worthless" depending a lot on context/setting.

1 hour ago, Indystruck said:

Blaster's status protection chance is another proc that is just completely outclassed by eating an inspiration. A proc that gives them a low chance to globally crit on blast attacks replacing it would likely be better.

Oh this interests me! And... interestingly enough... I don't even know if I think it should be a *low* chance really when talking about this AT's balancing! There is going to be some hot debate on this one, but IMO if you traded both a defense set, support, pets, and control ALL for straight up damage/small utility, you should be GREATLY rewarded as the glass cannon AT, IMO, Stalkers/Scrappers are "overpowered" in that they deal higher ST damage than Blasters, have a harder-hitting more consistent AoE (not talking about Blaster nukes here) and all without trading ANY defenses.

 

Blasters should be the absolute #1 winner for damage period for what they've had to sacrifice. Yes, improvements have lead Blasters to become better and more survivable, so there needs to obviously be some balancing without making Blasters just absurd, but there is no reason that Blasters should be doing less than Scrapper/Stalker.

 

Obviously, T9 "nukes" shouldn't be able to be crit, but everything else is completely fair game IMO.

 

About Defiance... Yeah I'm sorry I'm just not interested. I have other ways to deal with mezzes, I just don't care for others' ideas/solutions about it, it sucks. No, I do not want to waste slotting opportunities or whatever to gain a very small "break free." No Thank you, I have Clarion, Acrobaits, Break Frees, etc. to mitigate this, I'd much rather Blasters get their AT's standout which is extreme damage. It should be there for those who want it, but another much more viable/damaging option should be available to Blaster.

1 hour ago, Indystruck said:

Brute's procs are alright, I think. Not as big a game changer as the Stalker/Scrapper ones, but the +Fury is nice, and +Regen/+End is also pretty decent while leveling. Maybe just up the potency a little. I'm not 100% sold on them, but I feel like they're good for what you think about when it comes to playing the AT: Being a ball that just rolls over mobs.

I also agree this one is fine. I don't really see Brutes needing a ton right now. 

Edited by Zeraphia
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44 minutes ago, Zeraphia said:

Defenders get Vigilance which reduces their end costs, giving one more boon to Defenders vs Corruptors is a bit of a "slight." Defenders get so many distinct building advantages now over Corruptors that I can see why Corruptors are given the endurance help here. 

I should point out here that Vigilance gives Defenders an end discount based on how hard their team is taking it in the shorts -- if the team isn't badly beat up, Vigilance doesn't do squat.

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5 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

I should point out here that Vigilance gives Defenders an end discount based on how hard their team is taking it in the shorts -- if the team isn't badly beat up, Vigilance doesn't do squat.

You are right, but that's still a *form* of endurance control/modification. Defenders get higher endurance on their bases (Transference, all Elec powers, etc.), in addition to the Vigilance when gravely needed, Corruptors do not get these novelties. In general, Defenders have a much easier time on Endurance than Corruptors.

 

I'm not against Defenders really getting it, I just think that if you want to give it to them, Corruptors should be getting something pretty cool too in order to make them distinct.

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2 hours ago, Indystruck said:

ATO. I would say a chance to proc to fill up a chunk of Domination, but, again, that'd be mostly useless for Permadoms.

 

Corruptors... maybe their damage ATO could globally increase the HP% range that Scourge will kick in at?

 

Your Dom suggestion is interesting, it wouldn't really help Permadoms, but would definitely help Junior Dom's out quite a bit get back into Domination, as they have to refill the meter. What about procing more recharge, so Junior Dom's and Permadoms can perma dom easier allowing for more build variation?

 

 

I really like the scourge range extender idea for corruptors.

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2 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Tank ATOs are very powerful. It's quite easy to stack 10-15% resist. I'm at 80-90% resist all on my invuln tank while attacking. No change needed.

 

The issue is a resist heavy tank set needs less of what they're offering. It's not TOO bad for an Invlun, but Inv is hybrid Res/Def, and it would be nice to have the option to choose either.

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The orb ones for both control ATs are the worst, especially controller since at least dom's other proc is really good.

 

I'd probably suggest something that boosts overpower's chance to fire off, maybe have the psi proc be global like the SoA one.

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The +DMG is less than a red insp (+14% dmg vs +25% dmg), and for less duration. Hell, looking at it, I think I have a problem with the whole Dominator ATO set from a enhancement level too.

 

Doms are the Control/Damage class, but none of their ATOs actually have any damage values on them. With Domination, you keep everything locked down, essentially until it is dead. Which renders all the +Control in the enhancement set and the enhancement set bonuses pretty redundant. It's pretty clear that this was essentially developed thinking "Oh, they're the parallel to controllers, so, give them the controller-y set enhancements" and not "This is a assault class, so give it the appropriate values." Maybe split the difference if someone wants a controller set and someone wants an assault set, leave these as is and any new ATO sets for Doms can have a damage focus. Well, not entirely as is, that Firey Orb has goooot to goooo.

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I wish Sentinel Procs were just Damage Procs myself.

 

I'd replace the PBAOE +END with another Damage Proc or Gain Scourge Quicker IO

 

Defenders I wish just got Damage Procs.  Those would help a Defender's damage.  I don't need more help defending.  I need more damage, especially solo!

 

I actually like my Tank's +Resist, but I could do with a simple Damage Proc (or even a -Resist Proc) instead.

 

 

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Oh, right... Sentinels... knew I forgot something.

 

The +Absorb is superfluous (the other classes that have +Absorb procs: The Tank, and the Defender) for the AT's role, and... well, I guess +Opportunity is... fitting the "ATOs need to do a better job of leaning into their class" thing. The +Range bonuses from 2/3 slotting them, however, I think is a smart choice that works well. As "meh" as I am on damage procs, Sentinel having one instead of +Absorb would probably be a good play in the damage department to shore them up.

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On 4/24/2020 at 8:03 AM, Indystruck said:

Blaster's status protection chance is another proc that is just completely outclassed by eating an inspiration. A proc that gives them a low chance to globally crit on blast attacks replacing it would likely be better.

Honestly, Blasters' is a great idea, it's just really...underpowered.  Can only proc from one power, and only gives mag 1 protection when most controls are mag 3 (I believe that applies to enemies the same it does to players, at least).  Honestly, just changing it to work like Stalkers' chance-for-buildup would probably work pretty well with a high enough proc rate.  Basically, the blaster keeps protected as long as they keep blasting.  Feels very "defiant" to me.

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17 hours ago, ScarySai said:

The orb ones for both control ATs are the worst, especially controller since at least dom's other proc is really good.

 

I'd probably suggest something that boosts overpower's chance to fire off, maybe have the psi proc be global like the SoA one.

Talking about the energy font?

 

I dunno I kinda like it, put that set in a power like chain fences and I've had 5 of them out at once.

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9 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

Honestly, Blasters' is a great idea, it's just really...underpowered.  Can only proc from one power, and only gives mag 1 protection when most controls are mag 3 (I believe that applies to enemies the same it does to players, at least).  Honestly, just changing it to work like Stalkers' chance-for-buildup would probably work pretty well with a high enough proc rate.  Basically, the blaster keeps protected as long as they keep blasting.  Feels very "defiant" to me.

Stacked with acro... Mag 3-4 pretty consistent...

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10 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Talking about the energy font?

 

I dunno I kinda like it, put that set in a power like chain fences and I've had 5 of them out at once.

Agreed, rock cages, usually have 3 up most of the time. The damage and aggro distraction really adds up

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8 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Talking about the energy font?

 

I dunno I kinda like it, put that set in a power like chain fences and I've had 5 of them out at once.

For what, damage? I only really get use out of them as meat shields. I'd rather have something to increase my control potency. The damage is basically zero.

 

I know they have a stun pulse, but it's yet to provide a notable difference to my grav/storm.

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On 4/25/2020 at 8:32 AM, ScarySai said:

The orb ones for both control ATs are the worst, especially controller since at least dom's other proc is really good.

 

I'd probably suggest something that boosts overpower's chance to fire off, maybe have the psi proc be global like the SoA one.

Those both sound like solid ideas to me.

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Doesn't energy font draw aggro? I haven't played with it much but I thought it did unless I was imagining things. My biggest issue with both the orbs is they are concept limiting. I have one controller that the font fits perfectly but the others not so much. If all pseudopets and other proc effects could be customised that would be great.

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