Mastermind End Penalties Discussion

[JayboH]

Does this make sense in real-world play?  Does the argument that Masterminds sit around not using endurance the majority of the time back from CoV's launch actually hold weight in today's game?  It's not like a corruptor/controller have gobs of endurance if they just focus on keeping a team alive with their secondary spam, and since MMs can try to keep a team alive and their own pets too with their secondaries I wondered if any discussion can be had about them having to spend more endurance than any other archetype/class in the entire game for the same powers.

 

Toggle-heavy sets like Sonic/Rad/Storm seems unsustainable when you consider it's supposed to be balanced around Single Origin Enhancements unless you forego enhancing anything beyond end cost.  Pet summons and training are heavy end drains as well.

 

Just curious what the general consensus is.

Edited May 18, 2020 by JayboH

[Apparition]

IMO, the endurance is fine.  I have and mained a Thugs/Sonic Resonance MM for the first several months of Homecoming.   Masterminds have an endurance penalty because, outside of summoning, equipping, and upgrading their pets, they really shouldn't be using anything from their primary.  They don't (or shouldn't be), using attacks to spend endurance on, so the endurance usage elsewhere is increased to compensate.

[JayboH]

35 minutes ago, Apparition said:

Masterminds have an endurance penalty because, outside of summoning, equipping, and upgrading their pets, they really shouldn't be using anything from their primary. 

This is even more reason to not have endurance penalties.  I am positive that having a design doc for masterminds wouldn't say anything about making throwaway abilities they should never take on purpose.

 

I tend to not take them myself (like most players I'd guess) however that may be partially due to the penalties.

[tjknight]

 I mean if you think about it,  the MM's primary is basically free damage with no endurance cost to the MM. Every other class pays for their damage with an appropriate endurance cost.  Even with the penalty it's a darned good trade off. 

[Riverdusk]

55 minutes ago, Apparition said:

IMO, the endurance is fine.  I have and mained a Thugs/Sonic Resonance MM for the first several months of Homecoming.   Masterminds have an endurance penalty because, outside of summoning, equipping, and upgrading their pets, they really shouldn't be using anything from their primary.  They don't (or shouldn't be), using attacks to spend endurance on, so the endurance usage elsewhere is increased to compensate.

A design philosophy that the devs would make a bunch of powers they didn't expect their players to actually use doesn't make sense to me.  I fully believe devs thought most MM's would take and use their attacks, just that they weren't as critical to be constantly spamming them since they have other (endurance free) attacks through their pets.  Therefore, to balance out their (endurance free pet attacks), their direct attacks were made to cost more.  That doesn't account for the cost of needing to resummon pets of course (which is when you can run into trouble).

 

On my necro/sonic (who's attacks are actually decent and quick and one of the MM's I DO take and use the attacks), I use gloom and lifedrain (my only heal), constantly.  Necro also needs to use the extra damage of the attacks imo being on the lighter side of the relative MM damage scale. 

 

And yes this combo takes a TON of endurance and I've had to IO a lot for recovery and +end and use the SG base empowerment +recovery (great overlooked buff there btw) to make it work.  Recovery serums from P2W are nice as well in a pinch.   Definitely the roughest of any MM combo I've tried when it comes to managing endurance.  I certainly wouldn't look away from having some endurance costs cut, but I think the bigger culprit is the /sonic side.  I could see the argument for cutting the endurance costs for every AT for that set.

 

[JayboH]

15 minutes ago, tjknight said:

 I mean if you think about it,  the MM's primary is basically free damage with no endurance cost to the MM. Every other class pays for their damage with an appropriate endurance cost.  Even with the penalty it's a darned good trade off. 

I addressed this in the OP - but also when did summons, training, and attacks become free?

 

I actually addressed this twice with the secondaries bit.

[JayboH]

9 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

A design philosophy that the devs would make a bunch of powers they didn't expect their players to actually use doesn't make sense to me.  I fully believe devs thought most MM's would take and use their attacks, just that they weren't as critical to be constantly spamming them since they have other (endurance free) attacks through their pets.  Therefore, to balance out their (endurance free pet attacks), their direct attacks were made to cost more.  That doesn't account for the cost of needing to resummon pets of course (which is when you can run into trouble).

 

On my necro/sonic (who's attacks are actually decent and quick and one of the MM's I DO take and use the attacks), I use gloom and lifedrain (my only heal), constantly.  Necro also needs to use the extra damage of the attacks imo being on the lighter side of the relative MM damage scale. 

 

And yes this combo takes a TON of endurance and I've had to IO a lot for recovery and +end and use the SG base empowerment +recovery (great overlooked buff there btw) to make it work.  Recovery serums from P2W are nice as well in a pinch.   Definitely the roughest of any MM combo I've tried when it comes to managing endurance.  I certainly wouldn't look away from having some endurance costs cut, but I think the bigger culprit is the /sonic side.  I could see the argument for cutting the endurance costs for every AT for that set.

 

Well that's the thing: the end costs on everything for MMs is higher - sonic costs more on MM than any other AT just like every secondary for MM (and pools etc)

[War_L0ck]

2 hours ago, Apparition said:

 they really shouldn't be using anything from their primary. 

This seems like a really bad idea if playing Beasts (Pack Mentality). And Demons are going to use want to the primary also.

[JayboH]

Beasts for sure, and there is also Gang War and Hell on Earth which are decent abilities I thought anyway.

[Redlynne]

5 hours ago, JayboH said:

Does the argument that Masterminds sit around not using endurance the majority of the time back from CoV's launch actually hold weight in today's game?

No.

[JayboH]

31 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

No.

Yeah I didn't think so.  It was never right in my eyes but hindsight they say is 20/20.

[StrikerFox]

3 hours ago, JayboH said:

Beasts for sure, and there is also Gang War and Hell on Earth which are decent abilities I thought anyway.

I rarely ever find endurance being an issue on an MM. My only MM that had a problem was /Storm but was able to fix it with IOs/slotting. And the only reason it had an issue is because Gale is kept on auto, firing every 3 seconds. Otherwise it would have been fine.

 

Powers like Gang War and Hell on Earth shouldn't be a significant factor. The average Demon/Thug builds, GW/HoE will have about 160s downtime, with a cost of 10ish endurance to cast. They're not spammable powers and they're end use works out to around 0.06 e/s. Which is less end than Combat Jump. A +2.5% recovery, IO set bonus would probably cover their cost.

[JayboH]

3 minutes ago, StrikerFox said:

I rarely ever find endurance being an issue on an MM. My only MM that had a problem was /Storm but was able to fix it with IOs/slotting.

 

That's exactly why I specified SOs above.  Even if we ignore that, it's still a penalty vs other ATs that can also benefit from those same IOs.

Edited May 18, 2020 by JayboH

[StrikerFox]

11 minutes ago, JayboH said:

That's exactly why I specified SOs above.

I don't get it. Other ATs have no end problems when built on SOs? I recommend devoting an extra slot to end redux for each power.

[JayboH]

41 minutes ago, StrikerFox said:

I don't get it. Other ATs have no end problems when built on SOs? I recommend devoting an extra slot to end redux for each power.

I said even if we ignore that (as in, your IO slotting to resolve this penalty.)  Also, if you are asking about SOs, are you stating their power's strength needs to not be as high due to having to slot more end reduction SOs than other classes?  Is that the idea?

Edited May 19, 2020 by JayboH

[StrikerFox]

I'm saying MM is a strong class. The average MM can out-damage the average melee character. MMs can be a stronger tank than 70-80% of the other ATs. MMs can be a better support than 70% of the ATs. The trade-off is a higher end cost for a good portion of their powers and a smaller modifier for buffs, debuffs, heals etc.

 

I'm also saying if an MM needs to slot an additional end redux in their powers to make it work, other ATs would likely need to do the same when they're built on SOs, as well. All my Stalkers, Scrapper, Brutes and Blasters have end problems until IO'd with Miracle, Numina, Performance Shifter and Panacea.

[Crysis]

I play Bots/, Demon/ and Thugs/Storm primarily.  Endurance has and remains a massive hassle for me but thanks to HC I’ve managed to get it mostly under control even before things like Cardiac and Ageless.

 

-Recovery serum from P2W vendor

-The Survival Amplifier from P2W vendor

-The Recovery amplifier from base buff generator 

-Victory Rush from Leadership Pool (actually works damn well properly slotted)

-the +Recovery Accolades

 

But I have to do ALL of those things to stay powered up.  Demons is hardest because the Lash attacks do significant -RES, which is actually one of your key debuffs.  
 

I understand why this END penalty exists because if you build your MM’s for high +Recharge your DPS skyrockets.  But it still sucks I have to wait for Incarnates to quit worrying about END management.

[Talionis]

I think the issue may be more with Sonic than Masterminds.  Sonic has endurance issues in every primary and it’s generally considered weak as well.  
 

Mastermind endurance issues are not a bug.  It’s a trade off for cast and forget damage.  But some of the individual sets do have issues and Sonic’s already bad endurance issues are exacerbated by Masterminds endurance issues.  
 

 

[Coyote]

I run some kind of attacks on all of my MMs, with the only one that has almost no attacks being Bots/EA (because EA is so busy).

But I don't have much End problems, frankly. I don't mean that I can't blow down the Endurance bar, but... if you're constantly attacking while running toggle debuffs or buffs, you probably SHOULD have End problems at level 28, for example. I think my Ele/Shield Stalker had worse problems than any of the MMs.

Even Necro/Rad doesn't have a problem running the Rad toggles and spamming attacks, as long as AM is up.

 

The thing is this: you have to use sets relatively early to get both some minor +Recovery bonuses, and some End Reduction in there, or if you just use IOs then you need to put some End Red IOs somewhere. Not necessarily every power needs End Reduction, but you do need to stick some in there. And you do need to put some slots into Stamina, and get Panacea (and probably Numina) when they become level available. This does mean needing a higher alt to toss down some millions at character start.

 

With that, you can still run dry, and have some bad levels where you just picked up some costly power and haven't slotted it yet. But overall, you should be more okay than not, and no worse than many other ATs. Not everyone gets a Sustain power or Quick Recovery. My worst AT for End problems when soloing feels like it's Controllers, which makes sense since they do the lowest DPE. MMs may do the lowest DPE with their personal attacks, but they're free to NOT run them constantly. Throw them at the beginning of fights where you have to lower the enemy numbers fast to lower incoming damage, but let the pets finish off the stragglers so your end bar recovers for the next fight. Running a full-speed combat sprint through the entire map will drain you, but it will do that to almost any other AT if the powerset doesn't have good End management powers.

[JayboH]

2 hours ago, Talionis said:

 

Mastermind endurance issues are not a bug.

 

That's the first time I've ever seen anyone mention 'bug' with the endurance penalty.  I don't think anyone has ever thought it was a bug...?

[JayboH]

16 minutes ago, Coyote said:

But overall, you should be more okay than not, and no worse than many other ATs.

You should be: it's designed to be worse, on purpose, and if it isn't, you've just discovered a bug.  That's what I am questioning - I explained spamming secondaries contrasting to other ATs that may be played the same way like controllers and corruptors, and also SO usage intentionally.

 

We all know things can be overcome with proper IO slotting or at least by giving up power strength for more end cost, which is why I am asking about this under those specific (and correct) views.  We should be examining how it compares to those other classes, as you are using the same secondaries to not only take care of your team but your individual pets as well, and consider it makes no sense that the devs want us to purposely ignore attacks during the creation of this class, and also remember the game is and should always be balanced around SO slotting.

[Maxzero]

 

As a player who like to push archetypes to their limit yes the end costs are a pain but an understandable one.

 

While it is annoying to be pigeon holed into Ageless or /Cold (Heat Loss) to manage end issues MMs highend output is so stupidly high you need to at least have a token mechanic to try and reign them in.

 

Basically I would prefer to fly under the rader and let other players think that end issues are somehow balancing MMs.

[Clave Dark 5]

Mastermind's don't get a lot of exercise, what with having minions around to do everything for them.  When they have to expend themselves to fling that bubble or Sonic attack or pull out that rifle, man, they just don't have the same stamina a normal, actual hero or villain does, you know?

[BGSacho]

I don't think it's really interesting to discuss whether the devs had the correct design philosophy when creating MMs. From what I've heard, they also thought leadership was better on MMs than other ATs because it affects all the pets. You can have incorrect justifications and still arrive at a good place for balance. MMs are in a good place - unlike other ATs, we can still output most of our damage without using endurance, so the rest becomes a balancing act. Sometimes, you need to make decisions which toggles to run and which skills to use - I'd call that good gameplay, rather than being able to mash everything like resource costs don't exist at all.

 

MMs certainly have their weak points - for example, the slowness of resummoning, issues with pet durability/damage due to purple patch, lack of mez resistance, pets following too slowly, and so on. These are all also design decisions made by the dev team, and I think all of them are much, much worse for the balance and overall enjoyment of the MM AT than the endurance penalty. The endurance penalty is a balancing factor(e.g. use less skills -> less problems with endurance), and I think it leaves MMs at an acceptable power level.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by BGSacho

[Maxzero]

33 minutes ago, BGSacho said:

I don't think it's really interesting to discuss whether the devs had the correct design philosophy when creating MMs. From what I've heard, they also thought leadership was better on MMs than other ATs because it affects all the pets. You can have incorrect justifications and still arrive at a good place for balance. MMs are in a good place - unlike other ATs, we can still output most of our damage without using endurance, so the rest becomes a balancing act. Sometimes, you need to make decisions which toggles to run and which skills to use - I'd call that good gameplay, rather than being able to mash everything like resource costs don't exist at all.

 

MMs certainly have their weak points - for example, the slowness of resummoning, issues with pet durability/damage due to purple patch, lack of mez resistance, pets following too slowly, and so on. These are all also design decisions made by the dev team, and I think all of them are much, much worse for the balance and overall enjoyment of the MM class than the endurance penalty. The endurance penalty is a balancing factor(e.g. use less skills -> less problems with endurance), and I think it leaves MMs at an acceptable power level.

 

 

 

The summoning speed issue also varies a lot between primaries. The summoning speed for Thugs has never been an issue for me. Three quick whistles and your up and going. Compared that to Demon Summoning which is extremely slow. I honestly feel that summoning Demons takes 2 to 3 times longer then Thugs.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Maxzero