Mastermind End Penalties Discussion

[seresibyl2]

14 hours ago, StrikerFox said:

I rarely ever find endurance being an issue on an MM. My only MM that had a problem was /Storm but was able to fix it with IOs/slotting. And the only reason it had an issue is because Gale is kept on auto, firing every 3 seconds. Otherwise it would have been fine.

 

Powers like Gang War and Hell on Earth shouldn't be a significant factor. The average Demon/Thug builds, GW/HoE will have about 160s downtime, with a cost of 10ish endurance to cast. They're not spammable powers and they're end use works out to around 0.06 e/s. Which is less end than Combat Jump. A +2.5% recovery, IO set bonus would probably cover their cost.

Oh come on. No problems at all? I think it's just an annoyingly frustrating part of the game that doesn't really need to be THIS bad.

 

The first end bar is endurance after casting all zombies + the 2 buffs

 

The 2nd is after 2 minutes of just standing there (to take these screenshots) where the end is with toggles. 

 

The 3rd is after 4 minutes of just standing there (to take these screenshots) where the end is with toggles... still not 100%. And that's without doing anything - summoning, attacks, traveling, etc. Just standing around...  

 

Granted, this is level 41 with 3x lv35 IOs slotted into end for stam/dispersion/disruption - but if the gameplay was supposed to be balanced around SO-level enhancements, this isn't a fun time lol. 

[Coyote]

9 hours ago, JayboH said:

You should be: it's designed to be worse, on purpose, and if it isn't, you've just discovered a bug. 

 

I don't know if it's because of the secondaries that I've been using, but as I said, I have not noticed real problems with my MMs being worse off than other ATs.

 

It's not because they can do the same things as other ATs... if they could, they would be broken. I mean, you can't throw out two AoE attacks at the start of every fight, then have a full attack chain. If you could, it would be too much both in damage and for the Endurance bar. The reason why they feel fine is exactly that, even if you take and use your attacks, you don't have a full attack chain to use.

Necro can have a full single-target chain, but without AoEs it doesn't run through Endurance as badly as a Blaster mixing AoEs and single target. Plus, hehe, Theft of Essence solves its Endurance issues.

Demons and Beasts are likely to use their attacks a lot, but have to pause in their single-target attack cycle, and have only one AoE instead of the usual 2-3 that real blast classes have.

 

It's not that they can throw out the same powers and have the same drain from usage, it's that they don't end up throwing out as many attacks. With the busy secondaries, Kinetics solves its own problems at the end, and my NinKin is so far fine (but he mixes Provoke into the cycle, which has no End drain, and he uses melee attacks, where you usually end up with a bit of a gap as you run to the target or maneuver to set up Cross Punch). EA solves its End problems early. So that leaves us, IMO, with TA... and I haven't run one of those yet to see how its End issues are.

 

Basically, it's the limited attack cycle that prevents MMs from really bottoming out their Endurance early, and Endurance issues can largely be solved by the 40s if not the 30s.

[Coyote]

34 minutes ago, seresibyl2 said:

Granted, this is level 41 with 3x lv35 IOs slotted into end for stam/dispersion/disruption - but if the gameplay was supposed to be balanced around SO-level enhancements, this isn't a fun time lol. 

 

I usually use set IOs in the pets that include End Reduction, since many tiers will drain their own Endurance. So this also helps with summons costs. And I shut off toggles like Maneuvers if I'm going to do a full summons at the start of a mission or in such situations. So I can't recall seeing any of my MMs drop their End bar like that with a full set of summons. Actually, the Demons and the Robots end up full or nearly full after doing everything. That's because Demons summons are so darn slow, and because the Robots follows up with the EA buffs that include a +Endurance at the end. But, for whatever reasons, I don't crash the bar like that on a full summons set.

 

Also, "balanced around SO-level enhancements" DOES mean Endurance problems for almost everybody. I can tell you, my Stalker, who DOES use sets, and Panacea, and Numina, etc... had to take breaks every few fights well into the 30s. That's with using sets and special IOs. If I didn't use those, I can definitely see the problems continuing into the 40s, or else having to slot a lot of End Reduction into the attacks. "Balanced around SOs" doesn't mean "no endurance problems when fully slotted out with SOs", because characters were originally intended to HAVE endurance problems. I can recall how happy teams were to see Empathy and Kinetics sets, and it wasn't so much for the Defense or +Recharge (granted, Fulcrum Shift...). It was mostly for the "Yay, now I have no Endurance problems for a while". This WAS life on SOs for everyone, not only MMs.

[seresibyl2]

29 minutes ago, Coyote said:

 

I usually use set IOs in the pets that include End Reduction, since many tiers will drain their own Endurance. So this also helps with summons costs. And I shut off toggles like Maneuvers if I'm going to do a full summons at the start of a mission or in such situations. So I can't recall seeing any of my MMs drop their End bar like that with a full set of summons. Actually, the Demons and the Robots end up full or nearly full after doing everything. That's because Demons summons are so darn slow, and because the Robots follows up with the EA buffs that include a +Endurance at the end. But, for whatever reasons, I don't crash the bar like that on a full summons set.

 

Also, "balanced around SO-level enhancements" DOES mean Endurance problems for almost everybody. I can tell you, my Stalker, who DOES use sets, and Panacea, and Numina, etc... had to take breaks every few fights well into the 30s. That's with using sets and special IOs. If I didn't use those, I can definitely see the problems continuing into the 40s, or else having to slot a lot of End Reduction into the attacks. "Balanced around SOs" doesn't mean "no endurance problems when fully slotted out with SOs", because characters were originally intended to HAVE endurance problems. I can recall how happy teams were to see Empathy and Kinetics sets, and it wasn't so much for the Defense or +Recharge (granted, Fulcrum Shift...). It was mostly for the "Yay, now I have no Endurance problems for a while". This WAS life on SOs for everyone, not only MMs.

Not disagreeing - as of late I have a habit for grinding a character to level 40 in a single AE farm and then using the 40 million from that farm to gear it up with lv30/35 IOs + the4 slots for health/stamina with Numinas/performance shifter etc  - just to test out different specs before investing and they all have end problems (well, less a few of my stalkers)

 

They all don't end up with a zero end bar though (except that darn /cold corruptor with fog lol) just from existing 😛 

 

[Crysis]

2 hours ago, seresibyl2 said:

 

This is every /Storm MM I play.  

 

First is me 5 seconds into a spawn.

 

Second is me just standing in Atlas /emoting.

 

Third is me with all toggles turned off and just getting penalized for having the audacity to take /Storm as a MM secondary.  

 

I wish I was exaggerating.  And on every /Storm MM I play, 3 slotted Health with Panacea, Numina and Miracle +Recovery procs, and 3 slotted Stamina with Perf Shifter and Two 50+5 End Mods.

[StrikerFox]

None unless hit by a Malta Sapper or something similar. I think almost all ATs have end problems built on SOs. Few outliers would be sets with powers to mitigate it. Like Quick Recovery, Power Sink, Energy Drain etc. If you have other characters with influence or Reward Merits, buy these IOs ahead of time and email them to yourself.

 

Panacea can be slotted at level 10 (?).
Miracle can be slotted at level 17.
Performance Shifter can be slot at level 18.
Numina's can be slotted at level 27.

 

Here's some screenshots of how much end Panacea and Performance Shifter provides. It works out to around 38 end/min.

 

8:59 - 30.63 end/min
9:00 - 52.89 end/min
9:01 - 33.40 end/min
9:02 - 36.19 end/min
9:03 - 66.82 end/min
9:04 - 50.12 end/min
9:05 - 25.05 end/min
9:06 - 44.54 end/min
9:07 - 27.84 end/min
9:08 - 41.75 end/min
9:09 - 30.63 end/min
9:10 - 16.70 end/min

 

[Maxzero]

2 hours ago, Coyote said:

 

I mean, you can't throw out two AoE attacks at the start of every fight, then have a full attack chain. If you could, it would be too much both in damage and for the Endurance bar. The reason why they feel fine is exactly that, even if you take and use your attacks, you don't have a full attack chain to use.

 

 

Well some of my MM builds do throw out 2 AoEs at the start of every fight...

 

Of course I am hooked up to Ageless or Heat loss like some sort of junkie.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Maxzero

[Dixa]

23 hours ago, Apparition said:

IMO, the endurance is fine.  I have and mained a Thugs/Sonic Resonance MM for the first several months of Homecoming.   Masterminds have an endurance penalty because, outside of summoning, equipping, and upgrading their pets, they really shouldn't be using anything from their primary.  They don't (or shouldn't be), using attacks to spend endurance on, so the endurance usage elsewhere is increased to compensate.

that's not a valid argument. not all secondaries just run toggles, some are very active. 

 

the base damage on the mm attacks is too low given their end costs. i'm ok with the damage being low because the pets are a constant DoT, but the end costs should be addressed.

 

this game has and continues to have little to no concept on balance between the AT's let alone between powersets. don't make excuses or forgive it just because that's the way it always was. This is one of the weakest AT's in incarnate and +4 content by design, it does not need to continue to be crippled in other areas as well.

[Riverdusk]

11 hours ago, BGSacho said:

 

MMs certainly have their weak points - for example, the slowness of resummoning, issues with pet durability/damage due to purple patch, lack of mez resistance, pets following too slowly, and so on. These are all also design decisions made by the dev team, and I think all of them are much, much worse for the balance and overall enjoyment of the MM AT than the endurance penalty. 

 

 

I'd say a lot of those design decisions made were more based on flavor than anything (just like they originally did with animation times on attacks).  Zombies have to be slow moving because they're zombies right?!  I think that's about as much thought as went into that one honestly and I'd love to see them get a movement speed boost.  Same with the summoning differences with demons and others as mentioned.  Basically they wanted to make a cool looking demon summon animation and thugs are pretty straightforward in comparison.

[JayboH]

Yeah summoning speed is certainly an issue, and they can get hit during that animation time (if I recall,) yet you cannot train them during that animation time or buff them individually or heal them without an AOE.

 

Those mentioning the idea that things are this way because MMs don't spend endurance to do the majority of their damage couldn't have read the thread or even the OP.  😐

[tidge]

18 hours ago, Crysis said:

But I have to do ALL of those things to stay powered up.  Demons is hardest because the Lash attacks do significant -RES, which is actually one of your key debuffs. 

 

I run a Bots/Traps MM, also using powers & attacks (primary, secondary, patron) to contribute -Res (and control, via knockdown). This is the only one of my post level-50 toons for which I have to take breathers (or macro inspirations into blues!) in order to keep up the pace.

 

If I want to be much more passive (and let the bots & traps do the work) the blue bar would be fine, but it would be far less effective to defeat enemies.

[Crysis]

1 hour ago, JayboH said:

Yeah summoning speed is certainly an issue, and they can get hit during that animation time (if I recall,) yet you cannot train them during that animation time or buff them individually or heal them without an AOE.

 

Those mentioning the idea that things are this way because MMs don't spend endurance to do the majority of their damage couldn't have read the thread or even the OP.  😐

Hey I’m all for taking away some of MM’s “ridonkulous” penalties but having builds now that can easily and safely do sub-100 second Pylon times I DO think the Devs were looking to balance things.

 

Unfortunately they balanced against extremes and not the norm.  They have had a history of doing that.

[Dixa]

2 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

I'd say a lot of those design decisions made were more based on flavor than anything (just like they originally did with animation times on attacks).  Zombies have to be slow moving because they're zombies right?!  I think that's about as much thought as went into that one honestly and I'd love to see them get a movement speed boost.  Same with the summoning differences with demons and others as mentioned.  Basically they wanted to make a cool looking demon summon animation and thugs are pretty straightforward in comparison.

it's ok to have flavor, if you balance it

 

slow moving zombies better hit like a truck when they catch you. 

[Dixa]

22 minutes ago, Crysis said:

Hey I’m all for taking away some of MM’s “ridonkulous” penalties but having builds now that can easily and safely do sub-100 second Pylon times I DO think the Devs were looking to balance things.

 

Unfortunately they balanced against extremes and not the norm.  They have had a history of doing that.

the pylon is nothing. it doesn't have tohit buffs, it doesn't have ground targeted aoe patches. it's so large the melee mm's can all attack it at the same time.

 

the pylon is the literal vacuum people are trying to base balance on. it's not the actual game. 

[JayboH]

Yeah and again stressing SO balance to boot.

 

I don't think the whole 'pets do everything' argument holds any weight at all in today's game for the multiple reasons given here.  I'm not sure how common Ageless is for MMs, but I'm sure they figured most would go for Support Core Hybrid.  Max level that's only a 10% end reduction

[JayboH]

Whip attacks debuff resistance by less than 9.4% each by the way.

 

Corruption costs 6.5 end, 1.23 seconds

Lash is 10.66 end, 1.8 seconds

Crack Whip is 17.94 end, 2.33 seconds

 

That's 35.1 endurance out of 100 to debuff a target's resistance by 28.125% which takes 5.36 seconds to cast if done back to back allowing 4.64 seconds for other incoming damage to take advantage before the resist debuff gets weaker.  Naturally 35.1 endurance isn't going to recover naturally during that 4.64 seconds and of course we are doing it in a vacuum by dismissing tohit checks and end cost enhancements (and recharge) and also dismissing the damage the attacks do to the target.  I guess primaries can keep their end cost penalties, but why does everything else have to have it too?

 

The leadership discussion is an interesting one.  It would be kind of neat to allow MMs to have defender-strength leadership IMO - their secondary sets would stay weaker than defender's, they don't get the cool inherent properties defender's do with increased damage and end cost reduction that vary depending on team size and health.  Leadership you would think should be amazing lore-wise on MMs. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by JayboH

[Galaxy Brain]

 

More details here, but recently eyeballing the primary attacks show that they cost about 1.31x more end than they "should". The end penalty extends to their secondary powers (likely not to the same extent, but it is anywhere between 1.2 - 1.3x more expensive than on other AT's). Sure, they should have a balancing factor but that just is not fun.

[JayboH]

2 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

More details here, but recently eyeballing the primary attacks show that they cost about 1.31x more end than they "should". The end penalty extends to their secondary powers (likely not to the same extent, but it is anywhere between 1.2 - 1.3x more expensive than on other AT's). Sure, they should have a balancing factor but that just is not fun.

Oh wow, I have some reading to do.  Cool.

[Galaxy Brain]

2 minutes ago, JayboH said:

Oh wow, I have some reading to do.  Cool.

@Monos King and I have taken a dive into MM's recently and are trying to come up with fun, targeted improvements 🙂

 

 

[JayboH]

4 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

@Monos King and I have taken a dive into MM's recently and are trying to come up with fun, targeted improvements 🙂

 

 

I have my hands into a little bit of everything the last couple of days so I will check it out in a day or two; I can only imagine the mountain of discussion that is Mercenaries...

[Monos King]

24 minutes ago, JayboH said:

I have my hands into a little bit of everything the last couple of days so I will check it out in a day or two; I can only imagine the mountain of discussion that is Mercenaries...

There has actually been precious little discussion there (because our proposals were so perfect?) so that'd be cool to see.

[JayboH]

9 hours ago, Monos King said:

There has actually been precious little discussion there (because our proposals were so perfect?) so that'd be cool to see.

...I mean, they have to be the absolute worst primary right?

[Monos King]

34 minutes ago, JayboH said:

...I mean, they have to be the absolute worst primary right?

Between them and bots, yeah. And bots have the potential to be pretty good once you've got the full upgrades anyway.

[JayboH]

2 hours ago, Monos King said:

Between them and bots, yeah. And bots have the potential to be pretty good once you've got the full upgrades anyway.

Never really heard too much bad about bots, but I understand they would be vastly worse if they didn't have their regen debuff or something like that

[Galaxy Brain]

4 hours ago, JayboH said:

Never really heard too much bad about bots, but I understand they would be vastly worse if they didn't have their regen debuff or something like that

Pretty much this. 

 

Bots can put out INSANE -Regen (-1000%) which allow them to cheese tough fights despite having the worst ST output, and like with their AoE the set leans incredibly hard on the Assault Bot for this with it's Plasma Blasts. I can confidently say that Bots would be worse than Mercs by a good margin if it weren't for the Assault Bot carrying the team.

 

They have a very odd dynamic where they can blow away trash mobs with missiles, but then spend the next 5 minutes lasering stragglers. A boss fight can be either a slog or done in record time depending on if they have a ton of HP or not which is kind of backwards as well.