Mastermind End Penalties Discussion

[Coyote]

Bots really benefit from the Force of Will pool. It helps with single-target debuffing and damage to finish off the Bosses, which otherwise take a really, very, seriously long time to finish off with underpowered "pew pew" laser blasts that could safely be used in a game of Laser Tag as long as your kids wear eye protection.

[plainguy]

I get why they gave Masterminds an endurance hit. Their balance or fear was that a Mastermind would take his pets and a bunch of attacks and be out DPS'ing everyone. 

Again also the crunch to put something out there and fix/tweak it later.

 

This why they limited base storage because back then server storage was expensive.  Today it isn't. 

 

I just don't see the MIDs math adding up when I look at powers. 

 

BGSacho pretty much said it much better than I just did as I scroll up and look..

It is like they did some sort of in house testing against some static mob for DPS and realized a week before release Masterminds were crushing it so they dropped the endurance hammer on them.  Again under the guise of " You have pets.. your job is to micro manage your pets. and squeak off a Pew Pew every once in a while."

 

[TheSpiritFox]

I don't use the shit primary attacks MMs get (they really are garbage) but without those MMs in my experience are pretty end light generally. Depends on the secondary, storm fucks us like it fucks everyone else who tries it with high recharge, /time by comparison it can be hard to run yourself out of endurance with even a moderate IO build. 

[Dixa]

12 hours ago, JayboH said:

Never really heard too much bad about bots, but I understand they would be vastly worse if they didn't have their regen debuff or something like that

bots were overblown on the old servers, much of it being hyperbole that carried over from before the assault bot was nerfed but nobody could be bothered to run any actual numbers and continued to use anectdotes

 

they are very weak single target even with the -regen on the assault bot and their aoe damage is not as good as people make it out to be for a few reasons: the aoes are in the tier 1 and tier 3, the tier 1 aoe is not only weak it takes 2342927507qw03423472047 seconds to animate, the tier 2 bot does pretty much no damage and it also spends a lot of animation time on casting and recasting bubbles as an example. 

[Dixa]

1 hour ago, TheSpiritFox said:

I don't use the shit primary attacks MMs get (they really are garbage) but without those MMs in my experience are pretty end light generally. Depends on the secondary, storm fucks us like it fucks everyone else who tries it with high recharge, /time by comparison it can be hard to run yourself out of endurance with even a moderate IO build. 

this varies set by set, but mm do pay more for end for the same powers than other at's. I actually do run out of end as time because I try to stack it's two weak -regen when I can on bosses and av's. I also only fight at +4, so ymmv if you are playing at a lower difficulty. 

 

another server has fixed mm end costs and brought them in line with other at's and while it's noticeable, it didn't make them suddenly overpowered. not even a little bit. but because it was done on that other server if it was to be done here now the usual politics would jump into play so it's unlikely to happen here. 

[Redlynne]

4 minutes ago, Dixa said:

another server has fixed mm end costs and brought them in line with other at's and while it's noticeable, it didn't make them suddenly overpowered. not even a little bit. but because it was done on that other server if it was to be done here now the usual politics would jump into play so it's unlikely to happen here. 

What?  It was successfully done somewhere else?  Well then that OBVIOUSLY means it can't be done here!

 

/sarcasm

[tidge]

21 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

They have a very odd dynamic where they can blow away trash mobs with missiles, but then spend the next 5 minutes lasering stragglers. A boss fight can be either a slog or done in record time depending on if they have a ton of HP or not which is kind of backwards as well.

My bots trying to take down the last couple rando mobs:

 

[MoisesG]

20 hours ago, Dixa said:

another server has fixed mm end costs and brought them in line with other at's and while it's noticeable, it didn't make them suddenly overpowered. not even a little bit. but because it was done on that other server if it was to be done here now the usual politics would jump into play so it's unlikely to happen here. 

We dont have to copy what someone else has done, i'm sure that our crew of Devs can come up with different ways to improve MMs. It is just a question of time, resources and how high of a priority addressing MMs is. I personally hope they address it soon so i can make a bunch of MMs. 🙂

[Crysis]

I still find myself at times during very busy missions just standing there with my Demons/Storm because I’ve gotten two out of everything from Tornado, LS and FR and my Demons are just doing their thing while I stand in middle of spawn, occasionally throwing out a Lash.  END burn hurts but there is a point in every battle where I compare myself to my other alts and think “being a boss is fine!”

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by Crysis

[Dixa]

On 5/20/2020 at 5:11 PM, Redlynne said:

What?  It was successfully done somewhere else?  Well then that OBVIOUSLY means it can't be done here!

 

/sarcasm

there are unfortunately a lot of politics and petty bickering between the various teams that is actually hurting the community at large. balance decisions are both being made in spite of, or not being made due to some other server doing it first. it's irritating and irrational but given how people behave anymore I guess I shouldn't be shocked.

[Dixa]

4 hours ago, MoisesG said:

We dont have to copy what someone else has done...

this right here is the kind of partisan thinking i'm talking about that is ruining the community. if another server team fixed it and it works, there is no reason not to adopt it elsewhere unless you really don't want to fix it ie. mercs horrible damage, standardizing end costs across at's, balancing damage vs. animation time vs. recharge time, etc.

 

no, lets not have fixed sets or parity between sets so that when you make a thematic decision you don't also gimp yourself in some way, because one of our competitors that we don't like on a personal level did it first. 

 

i'm not saying I agree with all of the changes the various servers made, but there is only one server that has gone to great lengths to address the massive power set balance issues and defensive and QoL issues that the AT has, and it's not this one. 

[Crysis]

You sound like dev direction here on HC is based more on ego and “personal passion” than actual game improvement/balance?

 

But of course it is....it’s a volunteer effort and very few chosen volunteers have access to even change/improve the code.  It’s not a truly open source project.

[JayboH]

On 5/20/2020 at 5:48 PM, TheSpiritFox said:

I don't use the shit primary attacks MMs get (they really are garbage) but without those MMs in my experience are pretty end light generally. Depends on the secondary, storm fucks us like it fucks everyone else who tries it with high recharge, /time by comparison it can be hard to run yourself out of endurance with even a moderate IO build. 

We've addressed this in the thread, and secondaries and so on cost more than any other AT in the game with access to the same secondaries, and we've addressed why the IO argument isn't valid

[Bill Z Bubba]

I've got 3 MMs that are languishing and damn near close to deletion. Part of the issue is that I can't use the 3 attacks I'm given, or the others I take from power pools without bottoming out on end even with 4 perfshifters in stamina on all 3 and proper end-red in each of the attacks.

 

I could do what others suggest and sit back idle while my pets do the work but then I get bored and if I'm bored with a character it has no reason to exist.

 

Remove the end penalty, please. Return MMs to the normal end usage equations.

[Bill Z Bubba]

23 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I've got 3 MMs that are languishing and damn near close to deletion.

They're gone. Replaced by a single demon/kin who is now 34 and pretty heavily IOed. I don't think MMs are for me regardless of any possible changes.

[JayboH]

On 5/27/2020 at 11:11 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

They're gone. Replaced by a single demon/kin who is now 34 and pretty heavily IOed. I don't think MMs are for me regardless of any possible changes.

Well, you can make what is it, 5000 characters on Homecoming alone if you don't count the beta server?  Could have kept them I'm sure

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 hours ago, JayboH said:

Well, you can make what is it, 5000 characters on Homecoming alone if you don't count the beta server?  Could have kept them I'm sure

Nah. I don't keep what I don't play. I'm not a fan of clutter.

[Dixa]

On 5/26/2020 at 9:58 AM, Bill Z Bubba said:

I've got 3 MMs that are languishing and damn near close to deletion. Part of the issue is that I can't use the 3 attacks I'm given, or the others I take from power pools without bottoming out on end even with 4 perfshifters in stamina on all 3 and proper end-red in each of the attacks.

 

I could do what others suggest and sit back idle while my pets do the work but then I get bored and if I'm bored with a character it has no reason to exist.

 

Remove the end penalty, please. Return MMs to the normal end usage equations.

the problem is you've tried to approach this AT like it was a bloody scrapper, without realizing that 3 of the usually max 5 attacks in a typical scrapper/tanker/blaster/defender/etc. rotation are - for you - always on DoTs. you only have room for 2 spammable abilities unless you plan to 100% ignore your secondary, and only tankers/brutes/scrappers/stalkers (unless they are click heavy like bio) have that luxury. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

13 hours ago, Dixa said:

the problem is you've tried to approach this AT like it was a bloody scrapper, without realizing that 3 of the usually max 5 attacks in a typical scrapper/tanker/blaster/defender/etc. rotation are - for you - always on DoTs. you only have room for 2 spammable abilities unless you plan to 100% ignore your secondary, and only tankers/brutes/scrappers/stalkers (unless they are click heavy like bio) have that luxury. 

While I would never deny that scrapperlock is real regardless of what AT I'm on at any given moment, this statement is false.

 

My demon/kin's secondary is my primary focus because it has to be so that my demons remain buffed and healed and semi-useful.

[JayboH]

It's also not common to have end-granting abilities in most secondaries

[Crysis]

I just finished up my latest Demon/Storm MM.  I had one years ago on Live but built this one for all out carnage.  As typical, /Storm is merciless on your END bar.  And because I’m averaging over 230% Recharge in most missions I’m burning END like crazy.

 

But really there’s no reason to suffer like this on HC.  I routinely ran the Survival Amplifier temp power from the P2W vendor, carried several dozen charges of the Recovery temp also from the P2W vendor and also used the base amplifier for the +Recovery temp.  Was this a hassle to keep all these temps running?  Yup it was.  Was it worth the effort?  Absolutely, at least until I got Ageless.  And it beats carrying a tray of blues.

 

I do support adjusting MM End penalties.  But it’s so much easier to work around these penalties now vs back on Live.  As such I’m not sure I’d support spending dev time on this versus a number of other more game breaking issues.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Deleted demon/kin. AT just ain't for me. Like stalkers. No biggee. Love what ya love and all that.

[JayboH]

4 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Deleted demon/kin. AT just ain't for me. Like stalkers. No biggee. Love what ya love and all that.

Odd, stalkers play exactly like scrappers nowadays only with more critting.  Do you rehide and placate and all that still?

[Dixa]

11 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

While I would never deny that scrapperlock is real regardless of what AT I'm on at any given moment, this statement is false.

 

My demon/kin's secondary is my primary focus because it has to be so that my demons remain buffed and healed and semi-useful.

this is exactly what I said. the secondary's are too busy to take more than one or two attacks - if any. and that only a few at's can Ron Popeil their secondary. 

[Crysis]

On 6/4/2020 at 8:32 PM, Dixa said:

this is exactly what I said. the secondary's are too busy to take more than one or two attacks - if any. and that only a few at's can Ron Popeil their secondary. 

Somewhat depends on secondary.

 

My /Storm MM’s and /Time MM’s only have 4-5 click powers from secondary, and two of those are long duration cooldowns.  So plenty of room to take primary attacks and/or pool attacks and proc those out.

 

Web Cocoon fully procc’ed out does pretty decent damage for a MM.  I can one shot a +1 minion given all my other -Res I’m throwing around.