Armour Set T9s. A Discussion Of Their Design

[marcussmythe]

3 hours ago, Nanolathe said:

IO set bonus stacking is out of control. Damage Procs are harmful to build diversity. Global Recharge is a mistake.

You said the quiet part loud.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 5/20/2020 at 10:23 AM, Replacement said:

Eh.

Blaster Sustains were very successful.

Giving Stalkers Assassin's Focus, and quick AS before that, was very successful.

The introduction of Inherents at all was successful.

 

These were all "broad strokes" answers to problems.

 

The Blaster Sustain example is actually the most relevant: the broad strokes was "add the ability for Blasters to keep up the pressure (Recovery) and improve their survival in skirmishes without allowing them to just become tanky bricks."

 

Each set has its own manifestation of what this means. +Regeneration and Absorb allow you to get back into the fight faster, but still see you crumpling under sustained fire. While most sets got +recovery, Energy Manipulation instead had its Endurance discount improved.  At the end of the day, Paragon Studios started with broad strokes, aka "design guidelines" and made compelling specifics.

The blaster sustain wasnt the product of some random braod brush. It was the product of players like me using drain psyche and even the heal pool to make atypical blasters that could self sustain and then campaigned on the forums that blasters as a warrior AT deserved some self sustain in more sets in some form.  And each 2ndarys self sustain we did get was pretty personalized.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

6 hours ago, Snowdaze said:

Gunna have to go for comment of the day on this one, our focus might have been to narrow. Ultimately these T9's are infrequently being used. No one really looks forward to them, they are just there. Maybe going the individual AT route and have them something exciting and something people want to get is the way to go. Sure some of them could stay as survivability buffs, but not all the armor sets are focused on survivability and some of them even have great themes to play off of: Elec, Fire (I know it's a res, but it's also infrequently  taken), SR, etc... they are are different and fantastic. We all acknowledge the issue, but what we really lack is coherence on a course of action. But we all know what we DON'T like about these things: Crash that will kill you, redundancy.

This seems a vague concept, I got the just of it, but due to it's terminology, it made it difficult. Not everyone, my self as an example, has watched HunterXHunter, and thus not sure what Nen is exactly.

While ive never watched the anime referenced i totally got the gist of what they were saying i think.

 

dating back to 2nd edition D&D and the optional Skills and Powers rules, the idea of taking flaws to add further bonuses to a character or specific abilities/spells. Its how in most of the Hero based PNP systems you create something akin to superman. You take a power, flight, attach a flaw that disables it like a rare element, something not common but accessible to those in the know roughly a mid tier flaw. But when you take that flaw over and over, for every power, some very cheap so the flaw actually pays for the power and gives back points, a creative and skilled character builder will be able to have power with no rival but with the risk of a single magic bullet being able to take them down.

 

CoH did try this with the Kheldians and Quantum energy,but Khelds really dont get enough extra power to feel special, and Qs tend to just get stealth insta killed now days. Almost every PB I know said they used invis while leveling to negate the threat of Qs such as it is.

[Razor Cure]

Would DA or FA have T9s added?

FA is one of the most squishy sets, out of the box.

DA has lotsa tools, but end issues galore.

If every other set is getting these toggle tier9s..seems a bit unfair.

 

The end cost would have to be a totally stupid increase after that 60 secs grace period. With all the +recovery out there, with IOs, end red procs and Incarnates, people could really extend their use beyond what is intended.

Just copying what you said in the OP..

'Trying to break it. Trying to get their recovery to a point where they can sustain this new T9 power for far longer than is usually possible. '

 

IS that a good thing? Is it needed? ED came along and got rid of perma everything, then IOs came and let us re-perma some of those. I am not sure its really fair that someone with every recovery IO, a end red alpha, ageless AND maybe an sb buff bot can basically run their t9 far far longer than anyone else.

 

Also, while I rarely take t9 powers (MoG if any), I for one LIKE the theme of a panic button. Especially in MoGs case, it totally feels right and fits the theme. Would MoG suddenly become a toggle?

 

I'd much prefer the various T9s were looked at, 1 by 1, in view of teh REST of the set. In the same way MoG is utterly amazing in regen, or Icy Bastion is a great tier9 for Ice Armour. Similar to Rad and Bio (with unique mechanics).

Making every set have a toggle with identical behaviour (but different stats obviously) just seems as boring as they are currently, but if a different way. Also, just cause I can't resist bringing it up, weren't you recently bemoaning a LACK of diversity in sets?

Lets give them all something unique.

[Naraka]

5 hours ago, Nanolathe said:

Wanna talk about more trash ideas to pass the time though?

😁

You didn't have to go that deep, as I got your drift around the 1st or so paragraph.  I was already willing to discuss the shifts to toggles but might have been trying to get across that both removing the crash *and* lowering the recharge while also making it a toggle might be a bit much though.

 

That out of the way, I believe I was talking about someone else's suggestion in another thread about tier 9s giving extra powers using the temp power tray.  That might be something to consider when giving some utility that varies between each of these tier 9s.  Although that would also require making new powers which is likely a huge workload to the HC team, especially if there were more than 1 of these temp powers.

[Razor Cure]

1 hour ago, America's Angel said:

If an idea is good it will withstand scrutiny.

Will it? Why? A good idea doesnt mean people will like it. There was a thread recently about improving the KB prot in Grounded, on Elec Armour. A LOT of people said no, for the 'reason' that it went against theme and made sets to samey. It was not a 'good' idea for them, but others thought it was. How do you decide which is right?

1 hour ago, America's Angel said:

The objective of the suggestion forum is to improve the game.

Again..how do you pick? Something that is a clear improvement will be seen by others as a bad idea, a nerf, or power creep.

 

 

[Naraka]

1 hour ago, Razor Cure said:

Will it? Why? A good idea doesnt mean people will like it. There was a thread recently about improving the KB prot in Grounded, on Elec Armour. A LOT of people said no, for the 'reason' that it went against theme and made sets to samey. It was not a 'good' idea for them, but others thought it was. How do you decide which is right?

Eh, there was more to the argument than that though.

 

One side pointed to the lack of KB resist, the other pointed to it's 5pt higher KB protection (10vs15).

One side pointed to its nullification while in the air, the other pointed to it's passive nature and it always being active.

One side pointed to its stifling nature in funneling you into certain travel powers, the other pointed to it being a flavor aspect of the concept.

 

I feel both sides seemed pretty even.  I never heard any compromises, like lowering the KB protection to 10 and putting it into Static Shield or anything.  Why should Elec get passive comprehensive KB protection, exactly?  I guess you could point to Scrapper Ninjutsu which I feel is kind of a cop out but it also gets lower value KB protection and resistance for being passive.  Neither side budged on what they wanted.

[marcussmythe]

Making changes/suggestions at this late stage is very difficult, as everyone is pretty deeply invested in the way things are.  Any change to a powerset of a beloved character creates labor for the player, as they juggle and readjust - unless it is not just positive, but seamlessly so, without tradeoffs.  And we in general react poorly to labor in our fun.

 

Similarly, a certain type of player perceives any positive change in a powerset/AT not his own as a threat to the viability of their preferred character and playstyle.

 

So it is thus far easier, and likely far more emotionally rewarding, to tear down others ideas than propose ones own.  Something something Theodore Roosevelt.

 

So, to the OP - a brilliant idea, and it deserves to be explored further and written up into formal proposals.  The fact that these proposals will be widely panned by those invested in the way things are, and then utterly ignored by everyone with the power to do anything about them, is unfortunate and discouraging, but that never stopped us.

 

Postscript: One wonders if the reason we see such remorseless power creep is because the developers were learning to do it better, but its easier to make a new thing than fix an old thing? 

[Replacement]

18 hours ago, America's Angel said:

 

Eh, not really broad-strokes. Those were all AT-specific changes.

 

The suggestions in this thread are sweeping changes across four different archetypes, with no consideration for how each individual powerset operates. Had the original post suggested how the changes would play out at both the archetype and powerset basis, then I'd be more receptive. (Would the new tanker T9s help with aggro? Would the new scrapper T9s help with crits? Would the Tanker SR T9 give some sort of resistance or absorbtion? That sort of thing).

 

I distrust "ideas guys" so much when it comes to tweaking game design. Number crunchers are the only people who ever give good suggestions for balance tweaks, mainly because they have a greater understanding of how all the different parts of the game flow together. Like, my pet idea for fixing T9s is to just make them all Hibernate clones. But I have no idea how half the armour sets work so I'd never start a thread suggesting it. Especially when the dev team reading suggestions are volunteers/inexperienced. (AFAIK)

You're right about different ATs wanting different things out of their t9s.  You know who else mentioned that? The OP.

 

But the fact is, that's our status quo now.  Ice Armor is the only snowflake in the bunch that gets specific AT treatment. 

 

So if you want to say "it's important to me that any t9 overhaul uses the opportunity to diversify melee ATs," that is a fine goal.

If you say "it's a dumb idea because it failed to meet this criteria of AT differentiation" then you are simply wrong.  The precedent has been set time and time again to make powers perform identically across ATs. Unstoppable is more or less the same no matter which AT uses it. Same with Build Up. Same with Ball Lightning.

 

Those "ideas guys" you're so terrified made this game, you know.  

Numbers in a vacuum are worthless if you can't see the bigger picture. That's why the idea guys create design guides.

 

11 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

The blaster sustain wasnt the product of some random braod brush. It was the product of players like me using drain psyche and even the heal pool to make atypical blasters that could self sustain and then campaigned on the forums that blasters as a warrior AT deserved some self sustain in more sets in some form.  And each 2ndarys self sustain we did get was pretty personalized.

You do this thing where you word your posts as contrarian when your point isn't at all in opposition to me.

 

They're all very personalized and that's exactly the point. They're unique and interesting and not at all random and yet they are all clearly "Sustains." They all follow a design paradigm where on a high level, @America's Angel's "idea people" said they want all Blasters to have what Drain Psyche has, but to make sure it doesn't let them turn into tanks. Then the number people got into the weeds with the details and made really cool example powers.

 

@Nanolathe has simply suggested a similar paradigm for t9 armors: "Make these controlled crashes."

[SwitchFade]

Very good OP. While better than what most T9's are currently, I have come to view the mindset of standardized T9's on resist/defense as a rather bad idea post issue 4.

 

I'm thoroughly convinced, due to T9's like granite, lightning rod, and so on...

 

That each set should have its own t9, that complements the set. Should the t9 be more survivability, control, damage, Team support? This is where I think crafting really great suggestions and ideas would have the most effect.

 

Since issue, let's say 7, I do not take T9's on any resist/defense set, they're pointless. Making them a toggle, while better, is just better pointless addition. So many sets just don't need a T9 that adds more resist or defense to a set that didn't need it to begin with. Some may, but not all, thus the blanket approach being questionable.

 

What would be needed is something specific and different on a set by set basis. Just an opinion.

[Gobbledygook]

On 5/20/2020 at 11:20 AM, Galaxy Brain said:

This is an amazing proposal @Nanolathe! I think the switch to a toggle with very harsh costs is a great compromise.

 

Tossing this out there, but what if they were just incredibly expensive at all times? Instead of say, a 60 sec delay before it turns into a ~ 15sec timer (7%ish a sec drain), why not just have it cost a decent amount of end/sec out the gate? That way you can strive to build around it similar to how Stone handles Granite, and gives some amount of cost to stacking up such huge defenses. Not every T9 is Unstoppable levels of mitigation, but layered on the main set we'd see similar power levels. So, maybe even reduce the "extreme" values a bit, allow them to be used as long as you can maintain them with extreme costs, and I think they have a worthy trade off.

 

 

Toggle on T9 that has a heavy end cost?

Yes, make Instant Healing a toggle again, please.

Although I don't think six slotting stamina would be very helpful like it was back then.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

12 hours ago, Gobbledygook said:

Toggle on T9 that has a heavy end cost?

Yes, make Instant Healing a toggle again, please.

Although I don't think six slotting stamina would be very helpful like it was back then.

The problem with this idea/approach is it makes end sapping foes become significant in that they are the ultimate counter to the ultimate power. Not only that but again this one size fits all approach dismisses current players that enjoy the current approach.

 

I for one on SR users focus on global recharge in the extreme. So much so that Eludes now time ends up less then the time of a phase shift, allowing me to safely back out of combat till elude recharges. This becomes true perma elude when I team with any of my many global friends who main kins( and yes I buddy up with kins because I am a speed junkie;)) To change all T9s as your faction wish dismiss people like me and our current play preferences, simply because you want easy no thinking toggles that do all that you need and have a easy on/off switch rather then require abit of attention be paid to more then the enemy health bar during a fight.

 

The challenge/complexity/difficulty of coh really stems from having 3/6/9 power trays open, in the watching, activating, timing, and over all management of your character during the most stressful conditions. So when I see people start wanting mindless toggles to replace clicks that demand timing and attention I shift into thumbs down mode. And taht it seems is what this thread really is about, wanting uniform, easy to manage use toggle super defense modes.

 

And what about khelds and specifically PB hm? They can get perma end light form already and yet are really arleady in dire need of buffing simply because between blaster sustains, sentinels, and hell even tankers getting their dps upped abit, poor PBs really are feeling left out and indirectly nerfed over and over.

 

As your pro buff faction has even admitted. There is virtually no need to do this for scrappers/tanks/brutes/stalkers because their performance all already are among the top ATs of the game. They simply do not need broad sweeping buffs to the AT as a whole.  Yes certain powers, and certain power sets could use tweaking, and consideration for buffs when compared to modern sets. But those buffs should be subtle, tactful, and not radical changes that alter the power at a conceptual level less there is truly good reason to.

 

scrappers, stalkers, and brutes are among my most played ATs on live and now. And I am truly, utterly, vehemently opposed to just about every idea suggested here as described. I love these ATs, and how they work just damn fine as is and consider many already almost game breakingly OP inherently. I find the desire of others to take away what is, and works damn well for those who know the system, in the selfish quest of making a system that  for them is easier to use,or something, loathsome.

 

I like how while leveling we use the toggles, but at 38 can respec, dropping many, instead grabbing more fun flavorful, and utility powers to help allies, because now we can let the heavy lifting power carry the load. I doubt my current very fun PB for example could even remotely resemble his currently build if light form was turned into a toggle and I needed all the other toggles to for layers or whatever.

 

I love my regen and how it currently functions though I seem to be one of the few old school regeners that loved the changes back in the day.Id hate to see any of its powers changed beyond number tweaks at most. I love ninjitsu, and will power, and bio, and fire armor, and energy armor, and elec armor, all off the top of my head just damn fine as is. On a number of ATs. I will admit Ive never beena  big fan of aura sets that obscure my characters visuals too much so I tend to favor sets with less visual impact but thats an aesthetics thing.

 

So let me ask you all who want change. How do you change them in a way that does not impact or ruin a current build for someone who loves how they currently work/play? Because right now all your suggestions/changes seem to assume no one likes the current stuff as is and you can just throw out the bathwater without looking for a baby.

[tidge]

I want to congratulate @Nanolathe for doing a good job of summarize the 'feels' around the Armor T9s.

 

I can only write for myself, but here I go: The only times I've taken a T9 from an armor is to use it as a IO mule. I suspect someone is muttering"But power sets aren't balanced around IOs!"... I don't care. That is the only value I have ever gotten from them. At this point in the games lifecycle I don't understand the appeal of trying to re-jigger a T9 power as if we were going back to "Issue 0". We have IOs, we have teammates, and we have Incarnates. IMO the T9s should contribute to making the player more self-sustaining.

 

Improving the 'Panic Mode' utility of the T9 powers has no appeal to me. The Pool powers already include powers that can be used as 'Panic buttons' but with no downside (i.e. crash) other than the requirement to pick other other powers from the pool. I'm thinking Unrelenting, Rune of Protection and Epic/Patron powers such as Shadow Meld, Physical Perfection (not really a panic button, but I hope the point comes across), et al. T9s should not be less appealing than a second or third pick from a power pool.

Edited May 24, 2020 by tidge

[MoisesG]

I like the concept, I just think it just needs fine tuning for the individual armor sets. Great idea that makes the T9 useful while still retaining the risk/penalty.

[Nanolathe]

@Bentley Berkeley, I want change. (obviously)

 

I can only say that I despise Global Recharge, and what it has done to the game in terms of powers that can be made permanent, solo, without any real detriment to overall damage output or survivability (and in some cases it actively boosts those other values). If building enough global recharge actually came at a real cost beyond an in-game monetary one I could begrudgingly accept them. But they don't. So I can't. It just breaks the game. The builds you bring up are solely focused around that concept and I just can't bring myself to stifle my creative suggestions because a few min/maxers would be upset. I see the current implementation of IO set bonuses and Global Enhancements as the erasure of inter-archetype integration in pursuit of solo OMNI-Defences, not as a method to make soloing a bit more viable. The values are far too powerful if that was the original idea. Apologies, but there it is. You may tell me to take a hike because of this, and I accept that as the price of posting literally anything on these forums. Someone is always going to think I'm gunning for their build in particular. And there's always a reason that their build is sacrosanct and needs to be preserved at all costs.

 

I also am very much aware that this will probably not be changed. But again, I'm not going to stop suggesting things because it might make someone's current build less good, especially if it might make more people more interested in taking a previously terrible power, or set of powers as is the case here. Mix/Maxers gonna min/max. I'm sure they'll find a new build that's almost just as broken. As it stands there aren't any T9 Armour powers I think are anything beyond "Ok", and none I find interesting. That's what the OP suggestion was about.

 

@tidge, The changes as presented - without significant additional changes to either the core of the design ethos for defence sets, or a change in how players interact with the IO system - are pointless.

 

I will disagree with one point though, and that is that the changes I proposed would make having a team by your side much more appealing. With a team you could more effectively control your "crash" as they would have the time to provide the support you would need, rather than it all just happening in a split second. The current implementation of "The Crash" doesn't give the team any way to interact with it, other than healing for those that have a health crash. The -100% Endurance, 100% Resistance to Endurance, and -10000% recovery rate on some T9 powers are things that a team can't interact with. You're just out for 10 seconds. No ifs, ands or buts. Others may have slightly more lenient versions of this crash, but it's a much-of-a-muchness, really. They're all awful in their own unique ways.

 

Anyway, as the OP states, it was a thought experiment to really nail down what's ultimately wrong with the Pre-Fight Prep style T9s in the current game environment, and a suggestion that might make some people more interested in taking them for the extra challenge and dynamism it would bring. It has become clear that many people actually would be interested in such a design shift in their implementation, but correctly point out that it wouldn't really "fix" the problem. The problem for the T9s is more complicated than just the powers themselves. It is a broader issue that just affects them more than a lot of other powers. They're pointless as an increase to survivability. The only T9s that are viewed by the community at large as any good (outside of some very niche builds) are the ones that increase something more than just Def/Res numbers. They don't function as a capstone to an Armour Set, because 9/10 Armour Sets don't need more armour. As you say the current T9s are now less appealing than both some Patron/Ancillary Pools, and regular Power Pool picks to you (and no doubt others). This speaks volumes as to how the T9s have become completely obsolete, bar a very few exceptions. 

 

Mule, as a term to describe IO Enhancement slotting, is a concept I find very irksome. The powers that earn the dubious honour to have that epithet thrust upon them are deemed to have no intrinsic value, outside of slotting IOs. It is especially embarrassing for a T9 power to be brought so low. Primary and Secondary powers should have some kind of value as a basic expectation beyond a convenient place to put an IO.

 

This deserves to be fixed. It should be fixed, but I just can't bring myself to suggest the "easy way" out and simply rework them into +Damage or some other variant of offensive capability. In my opinion, the Armour sets equally should not be about giving you lots of extra damage. They're a defence set, not a fix-all tool to just give the character everything they need. By giving the T9s over to sustain, it would further add to damage classes' invalidation of a need to be supported by other classes for any reason, and we really don't need more of that to happen. Again, in my opinion.

[Galaxy Brain]

6 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

So let me ask you all who want change. How do you change them in a way that does not impact or ruin a current build for someone who loves how they currently work/play? Because right now all your suggestions/changes seem to assume no one likes the current stuff as is and you can just throw out the bathwater without looking for a baby.

Based on their reputation and how often they are picked, I would bet money that most people DO NOT like the current stuff as is.

[Razor Cure]

15 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

This becomes true perma elude when I team with any of my many global friends who main kins( and yes I buddy up with kins because I am a speed junkie;)) To change all T9s as your faction wish dismiss people like me and our current play preferences, simply because you want easy no thinking toggles that do all that you need and have a easy on/off switch rather then require abit of attention be paid to more then the enemy health bar during a fight.

lol, SR needing perma elude. Even more lol, SR with phase shift.

I see a LOT more SRs skipping elude entirely (cause really..unless your build is awful, you don't need it), so making T9s, and therefore Elude actually worth taking for the majority wouldn't be a bad thing.

 

15 hours ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

scrappers, stalkers, and brutes are among my most played ATs on live and now. And I am truly, utterly, vehemently opposed to just about every idea suggested here as described. I love these ATs, and how they work just damn fine as is and consider many already almost game breakingly OP inherently.

I do see your point there.

But aside from maybe..Sr/Invul/shield and Stone (which has its own issues), all the builds on those 3 ATs are only (or at least mostly) made OP because of IOs. For instance, I'd love, love to see a fire brute go out and fight +4 vanguard, without IOs. Because they would go splat. The only really OP power set on SOs is stone. And you cant move.

Claiming 3 ATs are totally fine because SOME combos, on IOs are awesome is..well..not strictly true. The ATs are fine, there are great, good and less good powersets (that can nearly all be made into great with IOs) but all the powersets with T9s have distinctly average at best powers (the T9) that rarely add anything meaningful to the set itself.

 

 

 

[BrandX]

I know it was never considered that great a t9, but I always liked WP's t9.  No real drawback to using it, but couldn't make it recharge faster.

 

I liked taking it on my WPs.