No IO's Solo MoITF Completed (using just Single Origin & Hami's)

[Dr Causality]

Hey just finished the final and posted in the MM forums.   But I'm wondering what other 'No IO' (SO/Hami only) builds or AT's people think could Solo MoITF at +1/+8 or higher?     (Or hell even +0/+8.)

 

 

 

The biggest challenge to 'No IO' builds for most AT's is probably the lack of Endurance Recovery.  Having Performance Shifter, Panacea, Miracle and Numina's, plus Recovery set bonuses makes a huge difference.   You could use Ageless to fill, but again without set bonuses many AT's will need Barrier for survavibility.   So maybe the ideal AT is one that needs Ageless for Recovery and +Rech, but has survivability covered on their own.  But no idea what that would be.    Beyond that, ,

 

• Blaster?   I was thinking maybe a ranged blaster could maybe do the last two AV fights since they can Hover Blast and out range the AVs.    But would they have enough DPS without IO's for procs and set bonuses.   And they'd have no chance of keeping the Lore pets alive.    And Blaster with No IO's would struggle badly in the early cave missions, where they wouldn't be able to effectively Hover Blast, nor would have +Def and +Res from IOs....
• Corruptor? or Defender?  Using the same ranged Hover Blast plan, but maybe Debuff some -Regen or -REs and could keep Lore pets alive?    Also, the Buff set could make the cave missions much more viable.
• Sentinel?
• Melee AT's?   I'm thinking all Melee will struggle without IO's. 
• Dom will not have Perma Dom with the IO Rech bonuses.  
• Or what am I missing?

 

If you had to do an 'IO-less' SO and Hami build, solo,  MoITF run, what AT and build would you try?

 

Edited May 26, 2020 by Dr Causality

[Troo]

Illusion/Traps maybe would be my first thought..

[nihilii]

On 5/26/2020 at 5:31 AM, Dr Causality said:

You could use Ageless to fill, but again without set bonuses many AT's will need Barrier for survavibility.

I think with your specified limitations (which I'm very fond of, btw - insp management and insp usage is a fun part of the game, but email cheese destroys any challenge and adds prep time that isn't properly accounted for), one could convert all insps to purples for survivability and rely on Ageless this way.

 

This is the approach I would take if I were to attempt this on my Fire/Rad sentinel, anyway. Great challenge idea and I'm not sure if I even want to theorycraft anymore, instead I might just try to follow your footsteps first and see what happens!

Edit: I took a stab at it and won, in just under 2 hours. Some thoughts here (a lot of it is related to Sentinels):

It turns out Sentinels have enough damage, so Blasters definitely have more than enough damage. Insp use should carry them through caves; perhaps shoot for some build alternating Rune of Protection, Hybrid Melee and Barrier to stay near capped S/L res most of the time and with decent defense.

Meleers I feel shouldn't have too many issues (except Stalkers; survivability in melee range might be tight there), although not all choices are created equal. TW/bio would likely perform as outrageously well as it does in the IO world: include Defensive Sweep in the attack chain and use it as much as possible for defense, toy with Defensive Adaptation and Efficient Adaptation as needed,

Edited May 28, 2020 by nihilii

[Dr Causality]

16 hours ago, nihilii said:

[...] in just under 2 hours.]

You did it in less than half the time it took my MM!

 

• How much of difference do you think the +0/+8 vs +1/+8 makes?     
• How high could you crank the dial up on your Sentinel and still be able to finish the hardest parts?

Edited May 29, 2020 by Dr Causality

[nihilii]

3 hours ago, Dr Causality said:

How much of difference do you think the +0/+8 vs +1/+8 makes?

I've only ever done the ITF on +0 or +4.

 

(...Ok, I probably have done it on other settings, but with friends and I don't pay enough attention.)

So I'll have to rely on your knowledge here: do the AVs that spawn as level 51s on +0 start spawning as level 52s on +1, or do they remain as level 51s?

If they remain lvl 51s, +1/x8 probably wouldn't change much. There would be added threat from other spawns, but there was enough leeway we're still well within the realm of what is possible.

Now, level 52 AVs or above... This is where damage output might not be enough. Unless we make some clever use of Lore, which afterall I used rather poorly. I suppose I could also make a HO build rather than SO. Slapping res/end everywhere a res SO is ought to help, ditto with acc/dam instead of plain acc (allowing for more end or rech slotting)... and even dam/range to replace dam SOs, to exploit hoverblasting further.

It is rather cool to think about these things. The IO space is objectively the most interesting, but we've treaded in those lands for so long a lot of optimization has been done. On the other hand, trying to minmax a SO/HO build is something that hasn't been done since the game was very different from what it is now. SO/HO + Incarnates synergies are radically new if nothing else.

3 hours ago, Dr Causality said:

You did it in less than half the time it took my MM!

Amusingly, I read that part of your original post diagonally and thought you took 1 hour to do the whole thing. I was in awe. 😄 Doing it at all on +1/x8 is a massive achievement, in any case, and what a cool idea.

[Dr Causality]

11 hours ago, nihilii said:

 

So I'll have to rely on your knowledge here: do the AVs that spawn as level 51s on +0 start spawning as level 52s on +1, or do they remain as level 51s?

If they remain lvl 51s, +1/x8 probably wouldn't change much. There would be added threat from other spawns, but there was enough leeway we're still well within the realm of what is possible.

Now, level 52 AVs or above... This is where damage output might not be enough. Unless we make some clever use of Lore, which afterall I used rather poorly. I suppose I could also make a HO build rather than SO. Slapping res/end everywhere a res SO is ought to help, ditto with acc/dam instead of plain acc (allowing for more end or rech slotting)... and even dam/range to replace dam SOs, to exploit hoverblasting further.

 

In my recent runs even resetting a handful of times, AVs have always spawned at +1 to the difficulty settings (up to max of +4).  So running at +1 got me all lvl 52 AVs.    And when I attempted at +2, I got lvl 53.  

 
 

Quote

 

It is rather cool to think about these things. The IO space is objectively the most interesting, but we've treaded in those lands for so long a lot of optimization has been done. On the other hand, trying to minmax a SO/HO build is something that hasn't been done since the game was very different from what it is now. SO/HO + Incarnates synergies are radically new if nothing else.

 

 

Yeah it was mind bending trying to think through an SO / Hami build.   I originally started trying to do a pure SO build, but once I realized how much effort it would take to optimize power slot allocation, I decided Hami's would be just fine.  🙂

 

Quote

Amusingly, I read that part of your original post diagonally and thought you took 1 hour to do the whole thing. I was in awe. 😄 Doing it at all on +1/x8 is a massive achievement, in any case, and what a cool idea.

 

Lol no it took me an average of an hour per mission, for a bit over four hours total.   Most of that was just the Crystal mission, which at +1/+8 took almost as long as you did the entire ITF.  The Crystal mish an absolute nightmare on Masterminds with melee pets.    Most of your DPS is from pets, but the PBaoe damage Crystal Cysts exploding has a good chance to kill most of your pets.    The real problem being that your pets are also part of your defense, so Cysts kills the pets and the Ambush then also happens to spawn right on top of you it has decent odds of nearly instakilling you.     So basically on a Master run you have no chance of running through just killing crystals.    You have to slowly and carefully take out each crystal.    And it's also by far safest to deal with each ambush before moving on...because with pets it's very difficult to safely run away from or past the ambushes....

 

[Dr Causality]

On 5/25/2020 at 9:07 PM, Troo said:

Illusion/Traps maybe would be my first thought..

 

I've never played Illusion that didn't have full perma PA from set bonuses.   😋     I guess I just imagined Illusion wasn't viable for soloing AV's unless you built for Perma PA.      

 

Running some quick and dirty math it looks like best case scenario of using Ageless combined with either Alpha Spiritual or Agility to boost Rech slotting past ED,

 

• 4-slotted Hasten will still be down > 22s in Mid's   (which since Hasten reduces it's own cooldown when up, means it will actually be down for something like 33s...)
• Even when Hasten is up PA would still be down about 17s  
• But for that 33s where Hasten is down, PA will be down for much much longer.   (most likely in the low 30's downtime when Hasten is also down...but really depends on what stage of Ageless wearing off you're at...)
• The Hasten downtime, combined with the Ageless buffs tapering down will make create enough variability that it will be difficult know how much downtime you'll be dealing with at each summon. 

 

How do handle the AV fights with those significant gaps before PA is up again?      

 

 

 

• Really good insp management?  
• Or do you think maybe if you take Aid Other, combined with Triage Beacon, debuffs and FFG you might be able to keep the Lore Pet alive during the PA downtime gaps, and let Lore tank the AV?
• Assuming you can keep the Lore pet alive during the gaps, then that would give you 5mins plus at least one 60s PA cycle to take out the AVs.   Probably doable given /Traps debuffs.

If you can't keep the Lore pet alive, then Controller /Traps without set bonuses will definitely not be enough to keep your Controller alive on it's own.   Especially against the all the Def debuffs.   So maybe you could try using Barrier to help buff the Lore pets, to fill some of the gaps.   Ageless is only providing an extra 25% Recharge during the PA summon in the first have of Ageless, and  then just 15% effective global Rech during the 2nd half, so maybe it wouldn't be that big a loss.  

 

 

 

 

 

[Frostweaver]

I have an oldschool build for my ill/traps that could do it pretty handily on +0/1.

[Frostweaver]

BTW, doms can still have perma-dom if you allow hasten and incarnates. spiritual+hasten+ageless provides some sick recharge. In fact, with those 3, domination recharges in 83 seconds.... which means perma dom!

 

But with traps, you may not NEED perma-PA since mines will clear out most spawns before PA is gone, and AV's will beat on traps and your phantasm in between PA spawns just as happily as they will you.

 

just checked, and with ageless+spiritual, hasten with 3 recharges is 122 seconds (2 seconds away from perma) Phantom army with 3 recharges is 65 seconds, which means 5 seconds of downtime. On traps, you can retreat easily for that 5 seconds while the AV beats on your pets and traps. On time or rad, that gap is disappeared completely. On dark or poison or nature, well.... get ready to do some jousting unless your phantasm gets really lucky (with nature that Phantasm just might be able to survive until your PA respawn)

Illusion is just that good.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Frostweaver

[Dr Causality]

10 hours ago, Frostweaver said:

BTW, doms can still have perma-dom if you allow hasten and incarnates. spiritual+hasten+ageless provides some sick recharge. In fact, with those 3, domination recharges in 83 seconds.... which means perma dom!

 

But with traps, you may not NEED perma-PA since mines will clear out most spawns before PA is gone, and AV's will beat on traps and your phantasm in between PA spawns just as happily as they will you.

 

just checked, and with ageless+spiritual, hasten with 3 recharges is 122 seconds (2 seconds away from perma) Phantom army with 3 recharges is 65 seconds, which means 5 seconds of downtime. On traps, you can retreat easily for that 5 seconds while the AV beats on your pets and traps. On time or rad, that gap is disappeared completely. On dark or poison or nature, well.... get ready to do some jousting unless your phantasm gets really lucky (with nature that Phantasm just might be able to survive until your PA respawn)

Illusion is just that good.

 

Unless I'm missing something Ageless won't help enough:     Doms and ILL controllers using only SO's, so missing out on +Rech bonuses from IO's sets, will have to deal with significant downtime gaps in either Domination or PA.

 

How or where are you calculating those cool down times?       I'm asking because Mid's is bugged, in that uses the max +Rech bonus from Ageless as though it were up permanently, even though that full bonus actually lasts for just 10s.    Napkin math leads to think the expected global Recharge impact for T4 Ageless should actually be around  21% over the entire 120s duration.      I tend to round that down to 20% for simplicity and also give a nod to the inevitable tiny gaps between activating either Ageless or Hasten.  (Even this is very optimistic because you can't have them both on auto, and even on auto another power with a long activation time can easily delay the auto-activation couple seconds.)

 

So for simplicity plugging in two extra Purple sets in Mid's will give a good best case estimate of what Ageless will contribute to cool downs of other powers.   

 

Based on that with just Hasten and Ageless (no other +Rech bonuses or buffs)  that would put:

 

• 3 slotted w/ +3 SO's Hasten 36.7s short of being perma.  Losing Hasten's 70% recharge for those 36.7s means the other cooldown numbers shown in Mid's will actually be higher...
• But Domination is already 15.3s short of perma when Hasten is up perma....so the real downtime amount is actually worse.
• PA is an even higher bar, so three slotted with 3 x 38% SO's it has downtime of 23.56s, which will again actually be worse because of the 36s Hasten will be down...

 

So what if we also use the Alpha Spiritual for the 45% Recharge bonus part of which goes past ED?   Might as well 6-slot Hasten while we're at it...

 

• 6-Slotted w/ Spiritual Core Paragon, Hasten still has a downtime of 14.3s.  

 

But once every long while the additional 60s of 100% Recharge bonus from 'Gees of the Kind' plus Ageless seems like it would still let you chain together Dominations or w/ Alpha Spiritual two PA's.     So you if you can finish AV off in two back to backs, then maybe you're still fine?

[fitzsimmons]

Do it without incarnates slotted.

[Dr Causality]

18 hours ago, fitzsimmons said:

Do it without incarnates slotted.

 

That was part of point of me doing this.   Everyone seems to immediately accept how powerful IO's w/ set bonuses are.     But when discussing re-balancing, it seems common to head straight to nerfing "overperforming" sets with no mentions of the Incarnate elephant in the room.    Incarnate powers, particularly with the level shift are nearly as massive a powerboost as IO's, and nerfing over performing sets is not going to magically rebalance pre-incarnate PVE content. 

 

 

 

As for doing this without Incarnates.   It's probably possible at +0/+4 or lower, but would be very tough at even +0/+8.

 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Dr Causality