subbacultchas Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 1 minute ago, Joshex said: situational (locale) context. it's the same with "pop" in the UK they have no clue what you mean, you have to say "soda" or "juice", oddly enough juice has a completely different meaning in the states. even so, you will find communities who use it in one specific way. CoH qualifies as a community, here we don't have any official texts to denote the meaning of DPS, so it's technically not a phrase with any other meaning than as an acronym. To suggest otherwise is merely to (as stated); create confusion as to the meaning. CoH doesn't have 1 or a few "DPS" ATs all ATs can be DPS built, so to use it in this context here.. makes no sense and has too many meanings. I was around when it came into being, and I was on hiatus in online gaming when it "evolved". I only came back for CoH. been years. 1985 if you must know, my first game system I can remember was a green/yellow pixel dot matrix gameboy, before that I played mainly atari and NES at a friends house. Arcades and cardgames such as MTG were a fun past time. I find fault with the term as used for the reasons stated, it would need to be more clear. and I know that DMG predates it. so there is no need to use DPS in this manner. I am not talking about DMG, talking about DPS. Not sure the timeline matters much, but I like to be exact-ish? Regardless this isn't a stance that's going to get you anywhere. It doesn't matter that the term has many meanings to different people, language is generally like that. Do you generally understand what the other person means when they ask for a DPS? Can you gather it from context if not? Then the message was recieved and it's good enough, and we don't actually need a strong prescriptivist meaning to the term before we can consider this communication. This is not a case in which a dictionary or even an etymology timeline is going to help you, what you want is what they "mean" by it, and I think you've got that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troo Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 4 minutes ago, Joshex said: CoH qualifies as a community, here we don't have any official texts to denote the meaning of DPS, so it's technically not a phrase with any other meaning than as an acronym. To suggest otherwise is merely to (as stated); create confusion as to the meaning. Apologies for not seeing this sooner (and I have not read the entire thread). Abbreviations are defined at: https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Category:Definition DPS specifically at: https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/DPS Previously they were available at: https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Category:Definition 2 "Homecoming is not perfect but it is still better than the alternative.. at least so far" - Unknown (Wise words Unknown!) Si vis pacem, para bellum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshex Posted June 4, 2020 Author Share Posted June 4, 2020 7 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said: Wow... Just wow... No offense Joshex, but you're taking this a bit too seriously. no, I was prepared to just give up on trying to change their viewpoints if that was the case, then just proceed to use it correctly from my end and ignore incorrect usages of it in chat, not ignoring users, but rather ignoring their implications.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subbacultchas Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 23 minutes ago, Joshex said: 1: the point of this thread is to clarify my position, and attempt to enlighten people with it, and if that failed I'd just write them off as obviously emotionally drawn to the new usage and thus theres no saving them.. 2: It was an English lesson. in this case the main point of it was not the words with which you find fault but instead the acronym with which this thread is named after. By explaining that acronym's meaning and explaining why it cannot be correctly understood when used in the "new way" due to meaning conflicts, I have succeeded in making this an English lesson on that one core topic. which was the point. 3: Chinglish was appropriate in this context and was not used in a derogatory manner, the English training school I work for is in fact a chinese company in china, many times they make thier own lesson power-points and specifically ask us to look for errors and list "chinglish" in that exact terminology as one of the things to look for, because they know English isn't their primary language. Chinglish has become a term in the teaching community that is not offensive or derogatory but rather to point out when grammar or other language attributes a student or material may insist are correct are not and that it is due to their own language's attributes not English. 4: You can't nullify future arguments that have yet to happen. 5: language, as a set of signals must be clear and concise. regardless if you and someone else agree on a meaning for a term, if others in the same context agree that it means something different, then theres a communication problem by having multiple meanings and it needs to default to the original meaning. 6: English as a language is primarily rooted in latin, with a secondary germanification, and a tertiary french inclusion of vowel use. it is not an abstract language based on thought. Each word can be traced to a latin meaning by dissecting and comparing parts of the word and degermanifying the word. 7:the sentence structure was more akin to ancient anglosaxon languages such as Gallic, No, the majority of the language is not composed of slang, it is composed of germanified Latin. thereby it's not slang at all. to call english "mostly slang" would be to call german "entirely latin slang" which would be incorrect and offensive, just as it's incorrect and offensive to insinuate that English is "mostly slang". 8:The change and discarding of the meaning of a word in English must be complete and total to happen at all. there can for instance be two words in English with the same spelling and pronunciation but different meanings. the catch is that they must be used with-in a grammatical context otherwise you are left asking which one they mean. one of the strong points of English is that context means we never have to ask which meaning they meant. D.P.S. as a class or AT or role does not pass this test, thus it is disqualified. 9: your 9th argument is negated by my 8th. DPS as a class noun has 4 meanings that all could be interpreted in the same context. it wouldn't matter if you made it into another meaning IF it was clear what you meant by it to everyone. lacking that clarity and allowing 4 different meanings in the same context is not valid, even for slang. 10: again languages are ONLY what we make them IF what we make them is clear and concise and obeys the rules of the language set before hand, in this case the grammar rules are not being followed and the meaning of the word is up for debate.. so no. Language isn't just a free for all. there is such a thing as language abuse and this is a perfect example of it. DPS is a word now, it means Damage Per Second. it's a gaming term to describe the average number of damage you can deal over time. due to ambiguity in the class/role noun, the meaning of such cannot be concretely gleaned so it does not meet the criteria for a new English word.. Context and concrete meanings are key aspects of a real word. lets make a silly example: "iftsx" (good luck pronouncing that one.) lets say I say the meaning is "1 person" but someone else feels it should mean "1 anything", then someone else thinks it should mean "1 man" and another thinks it should mean "1 woman", there is now a conflict in the infancy of the word. That conflict will have to be fixed before it can be a valid language article. DPS has that conflict in the "new meaning". and getting everyone to come to the same conclusion about it's meaning when it is "open to individual interpretation" is very unlikely. So that being said, it does not fall under the same rules as "gay" or "queer" which have concrete meanings in their new intended usage. I'd just like to point out to onlookers, that what he's describing here is a particular philosophical view of language called prescription or prescriptivism, and these are rules laid out within that school on how language "ought" to be. These are not the rules of language and communication, but the rules put forward by a specific model of language. I'm of an opposite school called description or descriptivism, which is more concerned with what words mean, how they change and language evolves. Neither are inherently right, even though we both like to think we are probably 🙂 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshex Posted June 4, 2020 Author Share Posted June 4, 2020 7 minutes ago, subbacultchas said: I am not talking about DMG, talking about DPS. Not sure the timeline matters much, but I like to be exact-ish? Regardless this isn't a stance that's going to get you anywhere. It doesn't matter that the term has many meanings to different people, language is generally like that. Do you generally understand what the other person means when they ask for a DPS? Can you gather it from context if not? Then the message was recieved and it's good enough, and we don't actually need a strong prescriptivist meaning to the term before we can consider this communication. This is not a case in which a dictionary or even an etymology timeline is going to help you, what you want is what they "mean" by it, and I think you've got that. no, I don't understand I would have to ask if my blaster or tank is OK. I can generally think they might need some sort of damage, but what they mean exactly is not clear sheerly because it's all upto the person who typed DPS to define what they mean. 8 minutes ago, Troo said: Apologies for not seeing this sooner (and I have not read the entire thread). Abbreviations are defined at: https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Category:Definition DPS specifically at: https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/DPS Previously they were available at: https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Category:Definition thankyou for that, see, we rarely use it in game, but I was not aware there was an official list of meanings. I am familiar with all 3. this is what I encountered as well. there is no listing for "a type of playstyle/class/role or at". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subbacultchas Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 1 minute ago, Joshex said: no, I don't understand I would have to ask if my blaster or tank is OK. I can generally think they might need some sort of damage, but what they mean exactly is not clear sheerly because it's all upto the person who typed DPS to define what they mean. thankyou for that, see, we rarely use it in game, but I was not aware there was an official list of meanings. I am familiar with all 3. this is what I encountered as well. there is no listing for "a type of playstyle/class/role or at". If asked, and the thing is you could ask them, right? But their answer may or may not fit in the box you've shaped for meaning there. I think reasonably, most of us here do know what they mean, and the issues is your preconceived notion of how they ought be using the word that trips you up. In a split second decision, I bet you'd come roughly to their meaning as well when not given time to over-analyze it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subbacultchas Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 Anyways this is going nowhere fast, and I don't want to be the last word if and when this gets locked. Good luck you on defining a lexicon for this, and I hope you find the audience you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshex Posted June 4, 2020 Author Share Posted June 4, 2020 2 minutes ago, subbacultchas said: I'd just like to point out to onlookers, that what he's describing here is a particular philosophical view of language called prescription or prescriptivism, and these are rules laid out within that school on how language "ought" to be. These are not the rules of language and communication, but the rules put forward by a specific model of language. I'm of an opposite school called description or descriptivism, which is more concerned with what words mean, how they change and language evolves. Neither are inherently right, even though we both like to think we are probably 🙂 There are even rules for how languages can change and evolve, one such rule is the new language term has to be 1: accepted and know to everyone (check), 2: have a clear meaning within context that cannot be misconstrued to mean something else (the word cannot be open to interpretation during use) (rule not met.). 1 minute ago, subbacultchas said: If asked, and the thing is you could ask them, right? But their answer may or may not fit in the box you've shaped for meaning there. I think reasonably, most of us here do know what they mean, and the issues is your preconceived notion of how they ought be using the word that trips you up. In a split second decision, I bet you'd come roughly to their meaning as well when not given time to over-analyze it. nope. I have clearly laid out the 4 meanings they have implied as I have seen them. "any thing to add to team damage is ok" "must also have the ability to survive with damage" "must be a damage centric at" "can be anything built for damage" it's unclear, you cannot call something a valid language article if it only explains part of it's own meaning, the only thing DPS implies in this context is "Damage" which is only the D in DPS. the rest is open to interpretation and needs to be clarified to be valid. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshex Posted June 4, 2020 Author Share Posted June 4, 2020 also the point of a word in a language, is that if you know a word you shouldn't have to ask what someone means when they use it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subbacultchas Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 Can, have, and will and feel as comfortable as Wittgenstein's beetle. Have a good one Josh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazl Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 On 6/4/2020 at 3:32 PM, Joshex said: also the point of a word in a language, is that if you know a word you shouldn't have to ask what someone means when they use it. You seem to be the only person who doesn't know what it means. No amount of opining or detailed English theory is going to change the fact that the horse left the barn a long time ago. DPS means damage dealers to most people. Maybe a new hobby might be less stressful. Dazl - Excelsior Grav/Kinetic Controller (SG - Cosmic Council) | Dazl - Everlasting & Torchbearer Grav/Energy Dominator Shadowspawn - Excelsior Dark/Dark Stalker | Pyro Kinetic -Everlasting Fire/Kinetic Corrupter | Nova Pyre - Everlasting Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster (OMG) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MunkiLord Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 On 6/3/2020 at 8:28 AM, EmmySky said: I am from Texas. I use a lot of words differently than my friends in other regions might. For example, "I'm fixin' to go to the store for a coke, you want anything?" Fixin' to means about to in this case and coke means carbonated beverage regardless of the name on the label. My nephew, who was raised in Washington and California then attended college in New York had quite a learning curve when he moved down here. I've lived in Texas my whole life(DFW) and the coke thing is something I've heard people say a lot, but I've never noticed it being used that way. I've heard this enough that I don't doubt you, just that it's not my experience. Maybe it's like that more in other parts of the state? Though when I worked at Applebee's in my 20s, lots of people would get pissed we had Pepsi lol. The Trevor Project Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aracknight Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 DMG? Mine has the Efreeti on the front cover. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twisted Toon Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 5 hours ago, MunkiLord said: I've lived in Texas my whole life(DFW) and the coke thing is something I've heard people say a lot, but I've never noticed it being used that way. I've heard this enough that I don't doubt you, just that it's not my experience. Maybe it's like that more in other parts of the state? Though when I worked at Applebee's in my 20s, lots of people would get pissed we had Pepsi lol. I was born in Oklahoma. I've I heard the Coke thing. Also know that it's called Soda in California, and Pop in some other parts of the country. Same with Highway, Freeway, and Parkway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MunkiLord Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 19 minutes ago, Twisted Toon said: I was born in Oklahoma. I've I heard the Coke thing. Also know that it's called Soda in California, and Pop in some other parts of the country. Same with Highway, Freeway, and Parkway. Pop is a weird yankee thing to say. My mom's side of the family is from Ohio and they all moved to Texas before I was born, so I'd here it from time to time growing up. The Trevor Project Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmmySky Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, MunkiLord said: I've lived in Texas my whole life(DFW) and the coke thing is something I've heard people say a lot, but I've never noticed it being used that way. I've heard this enough that I don't doubt you, just that it's not my experience. Maybe it's like that more in other parts of the state? Though when I worked at Applebee's in my 20s, lots of people would get pissed we had Pepsi lol. I am in DFW too (lifer). Honestly I think I picked that up in college way back in the 90s. That was down in central Texas. Edit: is Munki my neighbor? Edited June 6, 2020 by EmmySky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MunkiLord Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 32 minutes ago, EmmySky said: I am in DFW too (lifer). Honestly I think I picked that up in college way back in the 90s. That was down in central Texas. Edit: is Munki my neighbor? Maybe? I live in Hurst, for now. I'll hopefully be back in North Fort Worth by August. The Trevor Project Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmmySky Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 7 hours ago, MunkiLord said: Maybe? I live in Hurst, for now. I'll hopefully be back in North Fort Worth by August. You are my neighbor! I am in Hurst, for the last 22 yrs. My, my, my, what a small world! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomguide2005 Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 O.o Think I'll call myself an FM next time I'm asked in chat. Wut? Force Multiplier 😁 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twisted Toon Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 5 hours ago, EmmySky said: You are my neighbor! I am in Hurst, for the last 22 yrs. My, my, my, what a small world! You do realize that in this neck of the woods, people that live 150 miles away are also neighbors...just distant neighbors. Of course, I think that is more relevant to the size of the municipality you live in most likely. Hello neighbor. (Mena Arkansas here) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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