Should Entrapment be against the EULA?

[Sovera]

5 hours ago, Solarverse said:

So we see it all of the time on forums throughout the galaxy; player A: says something snide underhanded to Player B. Player B in turn says something back to Player A and crosses a line by insulting Player A for Player A's underhanded snide comment.

I've had that here. We were talking about the base macro and his whole answer to my post was 'alright, cheater' or something like it. I called him an idiot, post got purged, got a warning, his post calling me a cheater is still there 😄

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Here is the issue OP, what your basically complaining about is someone being disagreeable, perhaps dismissive, or willfully obtuse, but not actually being uncivil or out and out rude, which is what poster B in your scenerio usually has done to warrant an infraction.

 

Yes there is obvious baiting, easy enough to ignore or knowingly engage to kill some time. But what you seem to be complaining about here is basically someone who knows the rules and doesnt break them, and that somehow makes them deserving of punishment why exactly?

 

As someone who frequently has people here on this forum making snide little remarks in a clear effort to try and push my buttons I do get what your saying, but I find it better to be the civil one, and inevitably they will indeed cross the line and lack adequate civility in their posts and end up the one removed from the forum society.

 

There are lines for a reason, as long as someone doesnt cross them, even if its a dareful dance in debate trying to draw the other off balance, then so be it.

 

Like if person A says dismissively " I think everything you say and your position are invalid and only a fool would argue from it"

Then person B says in a moment of heated passion " No sir you are the fool, a terrible fool that has no value, and offers nothing to the discussion or the world in general"

 

Person A in the above was certainly unkind, but not making a direct insult towards person B. Person B in the above on the other hand is making a personal attack. If the above scenerio is basically what your on about OP, then nope cant say I feel more draconian forum rules that would make person A the bad guy for speaking in a civil manner just because it can be viewed as passive aggressive, is insane.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

22 minutes ago, Sovera said:

I've had that here. We were talking about the base macro and his whole answer to my post was 'alright, cheater' or something like it. I called him an idiot, post got purged, got a warning, his post calling me a cheater is still there 😄

Sadly the HC dev team have stated it is not a legit player command for us to be using under any circumstance and really would prefer us not to use it at all. As such even if it feels like an insult calling us exploiter or cheater for using it, isnt seen as wrong by the HC team from what I can tell.

[Solarverse]

11 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Here is the issue OP, what your basically complaining about is someone being disagreeable, perhaps dismissive, or willfully obtuse, but not actually being uncivil or out and out rude, which is what poster B in your scenerio usually has done to warrant an infraction.

 

Yes there is obvious baiting, easy enough to ignore or knowingly engage to kill some time. But what you seem to be complaining about here is basically someone who knows the rules and doesnt break them, and that somehow makes them deserving of punishment why exactly?

 

As someone who frequently has people here on this forum making snide little remarks in a clear effort to try and push my buttons I do get what your saying, but I find it better to be the civil one, and inevitably they will indeed cross the line and lack adequate civility in their posts and end up the one removed from the forum society.

 

There are lines for a reason, as long as someone doesnt cross them, even if its a dareful dance in debate trying to draw the other off balance, then so be it.

 

Like if person A says dismissively " I think everything you say and your position are invalid and only a fool would argue from it"

Then person B says in a moment of heated passion " No sir you are the fool, a terrible fool that has no value, and offers nothing to the discussion or the world in general"

 

Person A in the above was certainly unkind, but not making a direct insult towards person B. Person B in the above on the other hand is making a personal attack. If the above scenerio is basically what your on about OP, then nope cant say I feel more draconian forum rules that would make person A the bad guy for speaking in a civil manner just because it can be viewed as passive aggressive, is insane.

I agree with most of what you say here. Except for one thing. I'm not complaining. To be more specific, I agree with how to handle it, not that I agree that person A should not also be held accountable.  🙂

Edited May 30, 2020 by Solarverse

[Frostbiter]

I completely disagree with your A/B example Bentley. Insinuating someone is a fool is the same as calling them one, it provokes the same response. Allow me to demonstrate: you're a fool if you think otherwise.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Frostbiter

[Solarverse]

4 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

I completely disagree with your A/B example Bentley. Insinuating someone is a fool is the same as calling them one. Allow me to demonstrate: you're a fool if you think otherwise.

Person B would most likely see this as, "Well then you are calling me a fool, because this is what I believe."

Which me personally, I would not get too offended by that, but that is typically what leads to players goading others into crossing the line. Player A in this situation took the first step in to entrapping player B.

It is clear that people are split on this though. I guess the real debate at this point is, is the line drawn where it needs to stay, and how far do we move that line before we cross a line on giving the GM's too much power in our conversations? Would it be worth it, or would it be giving up too much of our freedom of speech to grant them the power to punish those who give underhanded insults?

[Frostbiter]

I'm sincerely sorry to Bentley Berkley for that but I wanted to make my point. It's extremely hard to respond to something like that and not come out worse for it. The whole entire purpose of saying something like that is to demean and undermine someone.

[Peacemoon]

The best answer is always to ignore and move on. There are billions of people on this planet and it’s not worth wasting valuable time on getting het up about unfair comments. Even on these forums, people reading the threads are not stupid, and if someone is rude or insulting, chances are most people will come to the same conclusion anyway, whether you respond or not.

 
End of the day holding onto anger is like grasping hot coal with the intent of throwing it, you are the one that gets burned. 
 

And no one is perfect, and sometimes we all lose our cool, but it is in these moments we should pause and try reflect on this wisdom. 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

37 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

I completely disagree with your A/B example Bentley. Insinuating someone is a fool is the same as calling them one, it provokes the same response. Allow me to demonstrate: you're a fool if you think otherwise.

But you see its not, right? Language is a tool, it has clear rules and structure, and there is a difference between a direct statement made as fact, and a suggestion or insinuation.

 

Backhanded insults may be insults, but we call them backhanded for a reason because they are garbed in the skin of social etiquette and are said in a way as to be acceptable even in the most social and civil settings. Hell its basically an art form and could tell you a story involving a 70+ year old english noblewoman and nazi occupation of her little island, and how she used such to keep them off balance and her people safe for the duration of the occupation.

 

Keeping ones temper held in check, and tongue on a leash are seen as positive qualities traditionally. Im not sure what your goal is but it sounds an aweful lot like its to say losing ones tempwer, flying off the handle, and being angry and rude, is not much worse then the other.

[Frostbiter]

No, I don't see that its not. I said what I said and I assure you, I believe it. And no, I don't see a difference between underhanded rudeness and rudeness.

[Ukase]

The truth is ...it doesn't matter really what anyone says/writes to you in a forum or in player chat. They don't know you personally, so it's not a personal attack. Surely, there's time to spend doing something more meaningful, isn't there? 

Some people aren't happy unless they are complaining about something - whether it be something HC added, or didn't add, that the player knew full well about before they even made their first character or, soon thereafter. 

Some people have such low self-esteem, they can only go about their day unless they belittle someone else - whether it be cleverly worded or not. These people do us all a favor by letting us know they're not open to teaming with us. This is why the /gignore feature is a thing. Use it, and move forward in your day. 

[Frostbiter]

10 minutes ago, Ukase said:

The truth is ...it doesn't matter really what anyone says/writes to you in a forum or in player chat. They don't know you personally, so it's not a personal attack. Surely, there's time to spend doing something more meaningful, isn't there? 

Some people aren't happy unless they are complaining about something - whether it be something HC added, or didn't add, that the player knew full well about before they even made their first character or, soon thereafter. 

Some people have such low self-esteem, they can only go about their day unless they belittle someone else - whether it be cleverly worded or not. These people do us all a favor by letting us know they're not open to teaming with us. This is why the /gignore feature is a thing. Use it, and move forward in your day. 

I believe that it does matter. We're all real people (as far as I know) on the other side of these keyboards and how we treat and talk to each other has real effects in peoples lives.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Frostbiter

[Grouchybeast]

I think punishing both parties is a fine idea when you're wrangling two kids under ten in the back of a car on a long journey.

 

I think with adults the onus is on them to use the block facilities available on the forums and in-game to manage their own online experience.

[Solarverse]

18 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

I think punishing both parties is a fine idea when you're wrangling two kids under ten in the back of a car on a long journey.

I think a lot of people use the internet in a way that they would not behave in every day life. For an example, in every day life, there can be real life consequences for acting the way that some people do on forums. So people are more conscious not to behave badly when they are interacting with people outside of being online. However, science has proven that people will act in a completely different way online because they have anonymity to protect them.  So although they may very well be decent people, being online has a way to allow people to behave in a way that would normally be out of character for them. Online, there can be more kids in the back of a car that are well over the age of 18.  😄

18 minutes ago, Grouchybeast said:

I think with adults the onus is on them to use the block facilities available on the forums and in-game to manage their own online experience.

This is true, however, in my experience this is only a temporary solution...as they are still there, still bashing your posts and making snide comments even though you cannot see them doing so. For an example, I had a toxic forum poster on these very boards on ignore for a very long time, in fact, this person is still on ignore to this very day. However, I have noticed that this person would still have a very negative impact on my threads by being a sort of gateway to toxic behavior. The toxic behavior doesn't stop, you just can't see it anymore.

However, I am kind of beyond this point, as now I am questioning if a rule being implemented into the EULA that would punish those who instigate the fights, would not infringe upon our freedom of speech...at which point this becomes and ethical conversation.  Does the means to an end outweigh the negative impact passive aggressive people have on forums? Or does this cross the line of freedom of speech which can have an even worse outcome than the toxicity of these forum posters?

I'm not so sure it would be worth it, personally. I am at a point to where I think (at this time) that it would cause more problems than it would fix.

[Jimmy]

Something that's incredibly important to point out is that you do not see warnings issued to other users.

 

Another person being an asshole does not excuse your behaviour. If you stoop to their level, both of you will get actioned - you just won't see the warning the other user gets. As a matter of policy, we do not discuss disciplinary actions involving individual users unless they decide to discuss it publicly.

 

If you have a concern about a specific incident, please raise a support ticket and we'll investigate.

[Frostbiter]

Its fine not to discuss it but you also leave a lot out there for everyone to see at the same time. Maybe you should consider addressing certain things more publicly.,

[Solarverse]

33 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Something that's incredibly important to point out is that you do not see warnings issued to other users.

 

Another person being an asshole does not excuse your behaviour. If you stoop to their level, both of you will get actioned - you just won't see the warning the other user gets. As a matter of policy, we do not discuss disciplinary actions involving individual users unless they decide to discuss it publicly.

 

If you have a concern about a specific incident, please raise a support ticket and we'll investigate.

No specific incident. It's been a good long while since I have had any issues at all with anyone in the community. I pretty much respect everyone who posts these days. We have grown to...tolerate one another.  😄 Thank you very much for chiming in, @Jimmy!

[Omega-202]

24 minutes ago, Frostbiter said:

Its fine not to discuss it but you also leave a lot out there for everyone to see at the same time. Maybe you should consider addressing certain things more publicly.,

...Or, in my experience, these forums have been pretty well behaved and, in-game, 99% of people are fine and publicly addressing the fringe cases would just needlessly amplify their reach.  

 

I agree with the earlier posters: water off the duck.  Not every asshole will be punished, and if they are, its not really any of your business.  Why do you care to find out if they're punished and how?  If you do care, it starts shifting from "justice" to "revenge", or at least "schadenfreude".

[Frostbiter]

I don't care if I find out they were punished or not. My suggestion was more about cleaning up and removing arguments that get out of line. Thanks for asking me to clarify and not making a bunch of assumptions. Sort of.

[Ukase]

4 hours ago, Frostbiter said:

I believe that it does matter. We're all real people (as far as I know) on the other side of these keyboards and how we treat and talk to each other has real effects in peoples lives.

I completely understand people shouldn't be rude to each other. But - if I call someone stupid in game...it's completely meaningless and reflects more on my immaturity than the other person's intellect. It's not like I can sell that opinion for any money. It's not like I actually know the person in real life. The game is just a bunch of pixels. Completely meaningless. 

If the opinion of some clown behind an avatar whom you've never met has an impact on your feelings, I'm really sorry about that - because they shouldn't. Why would anyone let the comments of a random stranger impact their day? That doesn't make sense to me. In person, sure, I can see that. They're people we probably deal with regularly. But in game? Nah. You just /gignore and the problem is solved. 

[Vanden]

37 minutes ago, Ukase said:

If the opinion of some clown behind an avatar whom you've never met has an impact on your feelings, I'm really sorry about that - because they shouldn't. Why would anyone let the comments of a random stranger impact their day? That doesn't make sense to me. In person, sure, I can see that. They're people we probably deal with regularly. But in game? Nah. You just /gignore and the problem is solved. 

Most people aren't zen monks who've mastered their emotions. Emotions are the polar opposite of logic, and you can reason that "oh, it's some random stranger, I shouldn't care what they think or say," all you want, but their words can still have an effect. "Words will never hurt me" isn't a statement of fact, it's a mantra one repeats to try to master one's feelings in the face of such abuse. So you can confidently state that it doesn't make sense to you that people are upset by strangers' words, but that doesn't change the fact that they are, and you shouldn't consider such dismissal the final word on the subject.

[SwitchFade]

6 hours ago, Frostbiter said:

I'm sincerely sorry to Bentley Berkley for that but I wanted to make my point. It's extremely hard to respond to something like that and not come out worse for it. The whole entire purpose of saying something like that is to demean and undermine someone.

It's extremely easy to react to your example in a civil, smart and manner. For example,

 

"I often think otherwise. It's healthy to question everything."

 

"The only foolish behavior is an insuistance that all opinions that conflict with mine are foolish."

 

"A fool and his delusions are good company. Sadly, I find myself alone."

 

"Courtly, the fool goeth. I thank you for your respect."

 

Not hard at all. There's a difference between responding to someone and attacking them.

[Redlynne]

9 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

There's a difference between responding to someone and attacking them.

There's also a common saying that common sense is often in short supply.

[SwitchFade]

5 hours ago, Frostbiter said:

Its fine not to discuss it but you also leave a lot out there for everyone to see at the same time. Maybe you should consider addressing certain things more publicly.,

It's fairy conclusive that publicly reprimanding an individual does not lead to positive behavioral modification. Overwhelmingly, it leads to resentment, anger, divisiveness and future escalation. It reenforces the exact behavior it was intending to ameliorate, eroding any possible successful positive change.

 

Sociologically, in every well structured scientific study, humans have never responded positively to punishment, be it actual or perceived.

 

Positive behavioral change, by and large, does not occur when an individual is in a distressed emotional state. Thus, in private, an individual may not feel attacked, defensive or otherwise unable to process information.

 

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by SwitchFade

[Frostbiter]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

I completely understand people shouldn't be rude to each other. But - if I call someone stupid in game...it's completely meaningless and reflects more on my immaturity than the other person's intellect. It's not like I can sell that opinion for any money. It's not like I actually know the person in real life. The game is just a bunch of pixels. Completely meaningless. 

If the opinion of some clown behind an avatar whom you've never met has an impact on your feelings, I'm really sorry about that - because they shouldn't. Why would anyone let the comments of a random stranger impact their day? That doesn't make sense to me. In person, sure, I can see that. They're people we probably deal with regularly. But in game? Nah. You just /gignore and the problem is solved. 

Theres no need to feel sorry for me. I don't really know any clowns.