Did tanks get overbuffed?

[BZRKR]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

1 hour ago, Myrmidon said:

And yet another perspective.

Made doubly amusing since my *main* is the scrapper, seconded by the tank. I'm trying to determine why the brute exists.

I think the answer to this question is "Because CoV had different AT's than CoH at it's launch, and no one deleted any AT when Going Rogue came out."

 

However, I don't think that that's the (only) question(s) you've been asking for 8 pages. I hope you find what you are looking for, and that it doesn't get any AT nerfed 🙂

[marcussmythe]

Ive spent the last half our playing around in Mids (I will admit that Mids is not play, but I am at work).

 

I think I was wrong.  I owe BZB an apology.

 

At least for Claws.   If there are no buffs whatsoever, the 'Tanks do 90% of Brute Damage' absolutely holds true - and I think that is reasonable.  However much tougher tanks may or may not be, a 10% DPS advantage is non-trivial, ESPECIALLY when we are well past tough enough - the tanker additional toughness just does not matter.

 

However...

 

Once you layer on stacked Follow-Ups, start adding in Musculature and Assault Hybrid - if my math and mids are to be trusted, the Tank (at least the Claws Tank) eclipses the Brute (at least the claws brute).  Any reasonable level of buffing outside of base enhancements and fury and the tank starts to catch up.

 

I really did not expect that the higher base value would 'swamp' the 180% Fury buff, but it looks to me like it does.  Now, I can build a Claws/SR Brute that 'gets ahead' of BZBs SR/Claws Tank on offense, while still staying over softcap - but thats bending procs, etc.  If the Tank did the same thing, and sacrificed the headroom it has spent to get about 10% more DEF than the Brute into yet more damage bending - maybe Adrenaline Boost... then the Tank would (again by my math) come out ahead.

 

The Brute still gets the title back at full buffcap - but as BZB points out, we dont live there, and noone questions that a red-converting candy-popping farmer will do more damage with a brute than a tank.  But we create an odd situation were in generic game play/hard content, the Tank is a NOTABLY better soloist than the brute, as it is both tougher, and at least in some instances more damaging.

(hysterically, the Brute may be a better team player in some circumstances - as a heavy damage buffing team will send the Brute past the Tanks damage, and the same team buffs will make the brute no less unkillable than the tank)

 

I do not have a clear, simple solution, and my math and mids may both be wrong (The map is not the territory!).  But if Bill comes back with the Tank matching or out-performing the brute, I will not be surprised.

[Bopper]

8 minutes ago, marcussmythe said:

However...

Can you show what it is you're seeing that suggests a Tanker is over-taking the Brute? I would take Mids with a grain of salt, as there are bugs everywhere that require lots of man-hours to correct. Post your builds and I'll take a look at what you're seeing and I'll see if it's correct.

[drbuzzard]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

But I want to hit this specifically.

What happens if you build an elec/rad tank? All that extra effort you spent getting to those caps on the brute could instead be spent on increasing your damage output.

 

Edit: Let me put this another way. What happens to my SR tank's damage output when I build it to specifically to match the SR brute's current mitigation values? That leaves a WHOLE lotta build room to increase his kill speed.

It's a lot easier to boost defenses than damage. You can leverage procs, but really that is about it. Though procs really are rather broken.

 

I have both elec/claws and elec/fire tanks, but didn't want to make a mirror. Both do a good bit less damage than the brute in question. They also have better psi and neg energy resistance (capped, and 80ish then tanker proc). I admit I use the tanks for DA content instead of the brute because there's so many flavors of damage in there (certainly a lot of negative energy). If I could be sure of getting Tsoo missions every time, I'd use the brute always. He does kill faster.

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Can you show what it is you're seeing that suggests a Tanker is over-taking the Brute? I would take Mids with a grain of salt, as there are bugs everywhere that require lots of man-hours to correct. Post your builds and I'll take a look at what you're seeing and I'll see if it's correct.

I posted my new tank build, still well over regualr softcap and damn near incarnate softcap with vastly more +damage and more aoe attacks. Please take a look as you can. I'm about to start the 10 run testing with said new build.

[Myrmidon]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Made doubly amusing since my *main* is the scrapper, seconded by the tank. I'm trying to determine why the brute exists.

After all these years, the thought of a Scrapper holding up a “Will work for food” sign for Brutes might be the most hilarious thing that I have ever seen in the forums.

[Bopper]

8 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I posted my new tank build, still well over regualr softcap and damn near incarnate softcap with vastly more +damage and more aoe attacks. Please take a look as you can. I'm about to start the 10 run testing with said new build.

Copy, are you making a matching Brute build as well and testing it?

 

I looked at the damage buff from Follow Up, it is wrong in Mids for a Tanker, but I believe you noted that already.

[skoryy]

I can take my WP/MA tank into a fire farm and clear the map without breaking a sweat, or at least breaking fewer sweats than your typical fire armor brute build. I've actually done it and my guildie with the farm build noticed. But I know I'm not clearing that map faster than the brute.

[marcussmythe]

I do not have the Brute Clone of BZBs Tank handy - just walked out of work.  Ill try to get it to you tomorrow if the issue is still open.  If you feel like fiddling with it in the meantime, it was a very simple reverse clone of BZBs - same slotting, same powers, apples:apples.  Once I started turning on the incarnates and the Follow-Up Buff, the tank climbed.  It should be simple to replicate what I saw.. start out with no follow - up, and no incarnates, with the Brute at 90% Fury.  Brute ahead, no problem.  As I turn on Musculature Alpha, Follow Up, Interface... Tank starts catching up and eventually passed the Brute.

 

Im aware Mids has.. issues.. and I offer the curators no criticism.  It is rather a crying shame, however, that in a game where the math is as deeply obfuscated and impenetrably explained as CoH, the only tool we have for looking at these things (other than spending untold hours respeccing on Test) gives bad results so often.  My understanding is that the Mids team is doing the literal best they can with essentially zero resources.

 

Now, if Follow-Up gives a different buff for each AT (I did not know that!) thats going to offset some of the difference.  *sigh*  This is why BZB is doing the testing, I suppose.

Edited July 8, 2020 by marcussmythe

[Chance Jackson]

Let tanks keep their DMG bonus, just patch a bit of the weaknesses in Brute secondaries like Psi, Toxic & KB holes. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

6 minutes ago, Chance Jackson said:

Let tanks keep their DMG bonus, just patch a bit of the weaknesses in Brute secondaries like Psi, Toxic & KB holes. 

I want to go farther than that.

Set brute base mitigation values AND base HP to be 85% tank values and lower brute mitigation caps to 85% as well.

[Bill Z Bubba]

23 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Copy, are you making a matching Brute build as well and testing it?

 

I looked at the damage buff from Follow Up, it is wrong in Mids for a Tanker, but I believe you noted that already.

No, I'm not. I did it in mids and it wouldn't be a build I'd play because it's not even at the regular defense softcap.

[modest]

@Bill Z Bubba There are a few things working against your Brute. The first is that the power sets that you picked are optimal on Scrappers and Tankers.

 

Certain power sets favor some archetypes over others due to damage bonuses, differences in the powers, slotting options, ATOs, etc. Claws and Super Reflexes are both power sets that favor Scrappers and Tankers over Brutes and Stalkers.

 

The second issue is your slotting. Based on the screenshots that you provided, you are not slotting your characters optimally. It is your personal choice to slot your characters however you please, but your slotting has significantly lowered the survivability of your Brute and Scrapper.

 

In comparison, here are the totals of the Katana/Super Reflexes Scrapper that @Bopper and I designed for Pylon testing:

 

 

This Scrapper was able to achieve the fastest Pylon time for any Katana/ Scrapper that wasn't paired with Bio Armor. With Weave and Maneuvers, it reaches the incarnate cap. Without Weave and Maneuvers toggled on, here is what the totals look like:

 

 

These screenshots were taken without incarnates factored in. You can raise survivability even further by taking Destiny: Rebirth and/or Hybrid: Melee Core. Note that with proper slotting, this character is more durable than your Scrapper or your Brute. I am willing to bet that it also does more damage.

 

In short, your slotting will dramatically affect your perception of how these archetypes and power sets play.

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, modest said:

Build stuff

 

Irrelevant. Get the SR/Kat tank to those same mitigation values and see how much more +damage you can get into the build.

[modest]

11 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Irrelevant. Get the SR/Kat tank to those same mitigation values and see how much more +damage you can get into the build.

Why do you find it to be irrelevant? Your complaint is that the ratio of survivability to damage is skewed in favor of Tankers when compared to Brutes (and Scrappers). I am telling you that I, and others, have tested this extensively and found it not to be true. Your Brute feels less durable because of your build choices.

 

A group of HC players, including myself, have tested Tankers (and Scrappers, Brutes, etc.) fairly thoroughly on the test server. We share our results through Discord. 🙂 I'd be happy to share builds and help you work on your build if you are on the HC Discord.

[Sovera]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Made doubly amusing since my *main* is the scrapper, seconded by the tank. I'm trying to determine why the brute exists.

I've felt this way for a long time, before even the Tanker buffs.

 

Like most of us I had this passionate love affair with Brutes due to unmitigated re-rolling of alts where the pre-level 22 (before becoming all optimized with DFBs and Posis and etc made that fly) were a giggly delight at one or two shoting things.

 

Then after a while of this I eventually got into ATOs and cringed at the choices between crit, and then more crit if Scrapper, or... 10% regen and recovery and +fury (...?) if Brute. Then add the rush rush rush to keep Fury up and grumbling when the bar was empty (January's patch alleviated that).

 

When we look at Brutes in the Pylon thread they are invariably a fair bit slower than any other (melee damage oriented) AT. Usually one minute behind even when using TW (I believe I found -one- case of them matching a Scrapper and being -one- case I would call it an outlier). If we look at defense they don't get the defensive bonuses Tankers do so the same slotting between the three ATs in question will give the Tanker softcaps and the Brute Scrapper numbers.

 

That's when I reached the same opinion: what is the point of a Brute? Damage? Scrapper. Tanking? Tanker.

 

Except Tankers were pretty crap pre-January and there was only masochistic pleasure derived in whittling things with a lower damage, slower cooldowns, and being forced into picking offense skills much later in the leveling.

[Bill Z Bubba]

8 minutes ago, modest said:

Why do you find it to be irrelevant? Your complaint is that the ratio of survivability to damage is skewed in favor of Tankers when compared to Brutes (and Scrappers). I am telling you that I, and others, have tested this extensively and found it not to be true. Your Brute feels less durable because of your build choices.

 

A group of HC players, including myself, have tested Tankers (and Scrappers, Brutes, etc.) fairly thoroughly on the test server. We share our results through Discord. 🙂 I'd be happy to share builds and help you work on your build if you are on the HC Discord.

Ok. Fine. Show me the testing where these exact builds are utilized across all three ATs for their times as I have shown for claws/sr. I've been hoping others would hop in for this whole thread.

[marcussmythe]

2 hours ago, Bopper said:

Can you show what it is you're seeing that suggests a Tanker is over-taking the Brute? I would take Mids with a grain of salt, as there are bugs everywhere that require lots of man-hours to correct. Post your builds and I'll take a look at what you're seeing and I'll see if it's correct.

Home, and now have the time to recreate what I had at work, because this is bugging me.  Both builds attached below.

 

Tank:

Spoiler

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1529&c=714&a=1428&f=HEX&dc=78DA6593494F53611486BFDBDB4BB91D984A2953A52D60277A69010726491031023544D48589A9153EA0B181A617022EFD0B6A74638C1A17AEFC0FFE09C7A51B370C8ED185A9A7F7BCC186DEB47D4EDFEFBDE79C6FCAECCEB85F5FBC372514F7F942CE34B357731B776449CBE4D6F2CB821EF7F48DE9E065B913AC0C384808B0233B2357E586298DA5ED22FDBB22570B72579A2D18CDC8829406A5DC31856B7173B360CC16F26BEB5B4E2B5E2A4AB9E261B9A2E637D61AAD7F0B32B7224BE67ABEE8BB50CC2F1BD3A5ED2D99CD6C673339734B96EEB6530303F43DD3463F4AA5BFB226F65521D2BAB01D30ED87CCFAAFCCC16FE077E69388C053A60F3DE22C6553389BAACC22DB25649B43B679E6537A5BE5B7353562B3B4BA2818633AE3CC1309F00DD1AB8B31AAA3A1B21612D6988BD6D401CDD1CB5A98049DFB51F4046B4E708272B8D0ABAB49B134B7176C65267D4C85F27890DB63CDF41975DF88EE1B47B9BBA631709CD939C1EC9D04A778E6E354B9992BDB9A51B905155B5071943C5E78BCF0B4C2D30ACF24797CF0F8E06983A70D9EE7D4A75FB1597DFADF72FDF677E07B66E70766EF4766DFA70AEDE21CE5EFE0FCA2639CE050C50BCAD785797725795EDD0638885D4A31FBD2A0C179555AC500CE5AC04F414017C1211E0BFD007FE28CFD66A6FFE0F4D0BB3DD8AD1E27CF2DE8023DCC5003D690BC61EC5618A7E325F5DD8FBEFB87B8AF93C3E008788A19390D7EB65BBC452D44F95D35AA699616AB031DCC743D3347DE04BC097807E01D38E6D5A94F037D1AD82F416B9E8296FA2BAC35EAB61FBF6731FBD1AD2DC76B4653354ABA4619AE51466A94856A05FBBF684761D214CBA5371DDDE3F29EF3E8FE0B25C92B7FF05FD3943DDECD488819BFCEB38ECF1123B4425F584F5E637DBF3A5F94F31D56E7BBCF3BD5F0007CC88C3D62C61F3393BF7827E7BD04ACDBACFF7FFC2A5C89352B5E745AF3B5E29B5571AE2ABE5D15FF03EE58ECD2

 

Brute:

Spoiler

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1466&c=681&a=1362&f=HEX&dc=78DA6593CB4E135118C7CF746628D35228961690166811E9458616D044D19028D6083421125DB8A9150EB4A681A6031197BE821ADD7A4D5CF90EBE81771FC08D1B2E5EA30B53BF39DF3F42EC6426BF73FEF3DD674E616BA6EDC585DBD342F39FAB961CA778B6BEB921CD4269B5B2A40BBABCF4742AB1589055296D32BBE9445999912B72CD91F6E2664DD68B97E44A556E4947F817D6D7AB76BE5A592D6FF8D47AB126E572806557ADACAD76A8DDBC2C2DCBBA53AED4C2E76B95251B99368B8592B321EBB77A287D929EEB0181AB41375DE295BBD194628A1DAA356709CF2EB8C734BE805F992DDF98CB01B892AF36E2519A2F09A6986D6930C36C7F490C59E23579E99C57D7F3887B91D93A0BCE31DF9095C9B61E33AC719C2E6630C85CA15ABC9A47D5E27DC87EC147CC438FC127CCAEA7E033E65BF2B238BEB0E2849C21FCF4C5FC98947F48283B8BB400B400EA7847BB0ED4D6012D82DA22A8AD4C4E9D9853E728CFA1C706C79887B3608E19B5B9B6F7E415C29C42881F45FC7EC4EF0F3145448830FA08FF21C42C91A09ABB59D3BA33DC473FA8D1BB5EF4D3ABFE860FB4EE43377DC836886C83C8A693570C7F4CCC0D4D5906C7B9DAF86FF03BF88339F48B7983263180490C8C73A74313E024F3C871F004F8C950FC485E0974979872CF942EAE51D8618EA70F9BA6B23BDA027AC1566649E733E0DA26619B826D0AB629D81AD4630653CFF8B8EF637E3000B63325F564A327FB24D73C760A9C024F337367C069FC9194278B9EB271FE2A51E3FF339A6E52B24D4AAE49996852269B94BCAB68575DA5317FF0AD3B5F43170BC6BF132E34E56105E9DCB2D2D8F6D15B54AF8DF2B9D9DDD74C6D5B57DAC867300ECE92C18821D25734B54F5F66EE1C8C97E4787B07E3DDF1B0FD5DE6E83DF03EF88099FB6928CE8508ECDBC877EFAF9F27DCB5A9D67F010686DB42

 

In the state those builds are set in, I see a slight damage advantage to the tank.  If you take Follow-Up out of the equation, the Brute has the advantage, but at two stacks, the Tank is slightly ahead.  You should be able to play with toggling stuff on and off, based on your greater knowledge of what does and doesnt work in Mids, and let me know if Im seeing what I think Im seeing - if Tank values are off for Follow Up, the Brute should slide ahead (though not by all that much!)

Im ignoring here things that could be done to either build to further improve damage, or for the brute to try to catch up on DEF, or the Tank to 'trade in' some of its comparative overage in DEF, in the name of Apples:Apples

[Myrmidon]

43 minutes ago, modest said:

Why do you find it to be irrelevant? Your complaint is that the ratio of survivability to damage is skewed in favor of Tankers when compared to Brutes (and Scrappers). I am telling you that I, and others, have tested this extensively and found it not to be true. Your Brute feels less durable because of your build choices.

 

A group of HC players, including myself, have tested Tankers (and Scrappers, Brutes, etc.) fairly thoroughly on the test server. We share our results through Discord. 🙂 I'd be happy to share builds and help you work on your build if you are on the HC Discord.

Dicord results don’t really help much for this. My guess is that Discord has less users than these forums, so I agree with Bill. Show us what you’ve got.

[Chance Jackson]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I want to go farther than that.

Set brute base mitigation values AND base HP to be 85% tank values and lower brute mitigation caps to 85% as well.

Fair enough but I'd rather have protections in the places I'm weakest then greater protection in the places I'm already pretty durable 

[Bopper]

30 minutes ago, marcussmythe said:

Home, and now have the time to recreate what I had at work, because this is bugging me.  Both builds attached below.

I took a look at the builds and I see what you're seeing. As for errors, I don't have time to look now but maybe I can do so later. One error I know is wrong is the Damage and To-Hit buff from Follow-Up. It should be 30% and 10%, it's doing something like 35.8% and 11.8% (ball-park). I also noticed you have everything set to +5, I had to turn that down to +0. But that honestly does hardly anything as really those +5s only hurt procs more than it helps damage. I also had to turn down the Hybrid. It has only a 50% up time, so setting it to 2 for average performance is more appropriate.

 

Other things I need to look into is the damage for the epics and the damage for the powers themselves. I actually think Tanker epics might be on the low side, but we'll see. All of that checking is gonna take a lot of work, so expect nothing soon as I'm working other projects. But overall, I still think if the numbers are mostly correct, the SR/Claws Tanker is caught up and maybe surpassed the Claws/SR Brute thanks to Follow Up, Hybrid, and Musculature.

 

One other thing I noticed, Mids allowed up to 3 stacks of Follow-Up for Tank but only 2 stacks for Brute. Odd. We'll add it to our list of things to fix in Mids.

[modest]

51 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Ok. Fine. Show me the testing where these exact builds are utilized across all three ATs for their times as I have shown for claws/sr. I've been hoping others would hop in for this whole thread.

 

16 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

Dicord results don’t really help much for this. My guess is that Discord has less users than these forums, so I agree with Bill. Show us what you’ve got.

Due to the rampant negativity on the forums, I stopped sharing my builds here. I am happy to share builds and offer suggestions on Discord. 🙂

 

It has been my experience that Scrappers with Bio Armor pylon test between 65-80 seconds (Titan Weapons), and 85-135 seconds (Dual Blades, War Mace, Rad Melee, Claws, Katana, Fiery Melee, Battle Axe, Broad Sword).

 

Scrappers without Bio Armor pylon test between 135 seconds and 180 seconds.

 

Tankers with Claws (@Dismiss), Kinetic(@Sir Myshkin), or War Mace (@modest) top out at ~195 seconds without Hybrid: Assault clicked. Super Strength can push 115 seconds with procs (@Bopper, @Sir Myshkin).

 

I have not personally Pylon tested Claws on a Brute, but I have a lot of experience with /Super Reflexes. This experience combined with the screenshots that Bill shared directed me to conclude that one component of @Bill Z Bubba's complaints, that Brutes do not have enough durability, is at least in part due to his build.

 

The only player that I know who is actively Pylon testing Brutes at the moment is @Werner. His Katana Brute averages 163 seconds.

 

It seems reasonable to me that a Scrapper with the same melee set would average 135 seconds, a Brute 163 seconds, and a Tanker 195 seconds.

[Myrmidon]

12 minutes ago, modest said:

 

Due to the rampant negativity on the forums, I stopped sharing my builds here. I am happy to share builds and offer suggestions on Discord. 🙂

 

It has been my experience that Scrappers with Bio Armor pylon test between 65-80 seconds (Titan Weapons), and 85-135 seconds (Dual Blades, War Mace, Rad Melee, Claws, Katana, Fiery Melee, Battle Axe, Broad Sword).

 

Scrappers without Bio Armor pylon test between 135 seconds and 180 seconds.

 

Tankers with Claws (@Dismiss), Kinetic(@Sir Myshkin), or War Mace (@modest) top out at ~195 seconds without Hybrid: Assault clicked. Super Strength can push 115 seconds with procs (@Bopper, @Sir Myshkin).

 

I have not personally Pylon tested Claws on a Brute, but I have a lot of experience with /Super Reflexes. This experience combined with the screenshots that Bill shared directed me to conclude that one component of @Bill Z Bubba's complaints, that Brutes do not have enough durability, is at least in part due to his build.

 

The only player that I know who is actively Pylon testing Brutes at the moment is @Werner. His Katana Brute averages 163 seconds.

 

It seems reasonable to me that a Scrapper with the same melee set would average 135 seconds, a Brute 163 seconds, and a Tanker 195 seconds.

Thank you for that, modest. Every bit is helpful.😁

Edited July 8, 2020 by Myrmidon

[Bill Z Bubba]

@modest I didn't ask for your builds. I asked for data similar to what I have put forth so far.

[Bill Z Bubba]

New tank SR/Claws build, posted earlier, still superior in mitigation in EVERY way to the brute or scrapper builds also posted earlier:

 

Mission Sim Round 1:
1: 400
2: 393
3: 429
4: 406
5: 382
6: 383
7: 419
8: 370
9: 390
10: 361
Average: 393

 

Faster than the scrapper.

 

But yall wanna keep telling me that this is ok. That balance doesn't matter. @Captain Powerhouse What say you?

 

Edit: Side note: I didn't even use the extra AoEs from the PPP. They actually slowed me down. These 10 runs were only using claws attacks.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Bill Z Bubba