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Weekly Discussion 59: Veteran Level Rewards

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I'm an odd duck, but I think the time to get your first 60 Emp should = what now takes you to get 20 emp; this is a barrier for non-AE farmers that should go.  Making the game too easy vs barrier of entry are two vastly different things.

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Xanatos said:

 

 

Neither of these suggestions would make the game harder.

 

They'd just make everything take longer.

 

Terrible ideas.

 

 

To be frank, the game needs to be made longer.  Double XP works great for us veterans who have played the game for years, but it has done a lot of harm to the game for newbies.  There are a lot, and I do mean a lot, of new players to the game over the past year with level 50 characters (multiple even), who between AE and double XP legitimately have no idea how to play the game.  I have had to kick more attempted door sitters from my Task Forces and Strike Forces (especially ITF) over the past year than I ever recall having to do in seven years of playing live.  Heck, I had to do it just last night.  They think because they can be carried to level 50 in an AE farm by one Brute or Tanker, that they can be freely carried in anything as long as there is at least one level 50 on the team.  Then once they do get to level 50, all they know is what they learned in AE farms.  It's double XP which enables that.

Edited by Apparition
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21 hours ago, Apparition said:

the gifted Incarnate threads and Empyrean merits are having a detrimental effect on the game.

I wanted to chime in here. On the first pass, I was a bit irritated, but then I opted to take a step back and actually think about this. 
Unfortunately, my response has less to do with Vet Rewards/Emps/Threads than it does the differences between HC's flavor of CoH and the original. 

There are a number of differences between HC and Paragon Studio's respective versions of CoH. 

Paragon                                                                                                               HC
Converter exchange : 10 reward merits for 1 Converter                                 Converter exchange : 1 reward merit for 3 converters

Packs were available via real world cash                                                         Packs are available, seeded on the AH for in game inf. 

Vanguard merits were good for limited items, storage, HVAC,                       Vanguard merits are also convertible to Reward Merits  

Costume unlocks.        

 

PvP recipes are only available via drops in pvp zones, and via                     PvP recipes & IOs are available from drops in PvE, no longer purchased by hero merits (or villain merits)

Hero/Villain & Emp Merits & Wentworths
Only ATOs & Event IOs (Overwhelming Force, Winter Sets) are                    All set enhancements may be attuned, either from purchasing them from the market already attuned, or using a catalyst. 

attuned. 

 

Vet level Emp & Thread bonuses didn't exist                                                  Vet levels give Emp & Thread bonuses. 

Unlocks of incarnate slots only get progress through iTrials &                       Incarnate unlock progress is gained in any content. 

other specific incarnate content (Apex/Tin Mage)

(to be transparent, I've only done the Mender Remiel arc to unlock alpha. I have no idea if this was unlockable doing non-incarnate content)

 

I didn't mention the seeded salvage, which prevents certain salvage from costing 2-10 million inf in HC's version. 

There are a lot more differences! In my mind, the biggest are the converter exchange, the attuned IOs that we can slot and maintain the set bonuses, and the ease of obtaining PvP IOs, compared to live. 

 

So, now, I have to ask myself - what is it that makes something "detrimental" to a game? 
In my own experience, the game is simple...the way I play it. I do play at +4/8, sure. With my characters that can handle it. I *could* play that way with some of my blasters, but since they're 50 already, there's no point. To what end? Challenge you say? At my age, I'm no longer trying to bench press more weight. I'm trying to lift the same weight I lifted last year, but lift it the same reps in a faster time. It's about speed for me. If I find I can solo Silver Mantis in less than 20 minutes, only then will I raise the difficulty one more notch. 

Is the ease of outfitting the characters with IOs detrimental? 
Is it the ease of gaining t-4 in a given incarnate slot? 

I don't think "ease" implies a detrimental impact. I think what makes these things detrimental is that we make progress so fast, that we reach that point where we're "done", and it's time to start over. But the journey is so fast with these changes, that we're looking at the same content too soon. Generally, most of us pick up little tricks and tactics - like kiting BatZul, so you can solo him effectively at level 20. No super inps or Summon Pets required. And, once you happen upon that little trick, every time you do it, it will be that much easier. (assuming your character has the dps)

It's up to us to be creative and make our own content through AE (which because of farming has nerfed rewards, never pays reward merits, or non-AE badges, except damage and heal type progress badges) or slow down the progress we make, or find a different path with different content. Because even if HC came up with an entire zone, with 4 contacts and 6 story arcs and a tf within that zone, there are still a lot of players who would exhaust that content in a month and ask for more. (while it would take a lot longer than a month to create that content)

 

 

 

As far as Emp & threads & vet levels go, I'm fine with it. I know what to expect. I'd prefer to have the threads stop at vet level 14, or even 17. But that's because I am getting so weary of iTrials and the lazy way some folks choose to do them. "Slamda"? Some folks are completely unaware there are mobs around the facility that can be cleared for iXP. They just want the reward table as fast as they can get it. And, yeah, I'm getting bored with iTrials in general, too. It's been the same thing with over 30 level 50's...all I need now is the t-shirt. 

 

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I really dont have a problem with the current Vet rewards system, I actually hardly use the Emp merits, I do use some of the threads but I also generally have a nice pool of extras. I just find it easier to unlock incarnate powers by actually grinding the salvage out of an arc, instead of buying it with Emp's. 

 

8 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

To be frank, the game needs to be made longer.  Double XP works great for us veterans who have played the game for years, but it has done a lot of harm to the game for newbies.  There are a lot, and I do mean a lot, of new players to the game over the past year with level 50 characters (multiple even), who between AE and double XP legitimately have no idea how to play the game.  I have had to kick more attempted door sitters from my Task Forces and Strike Forces (especially ITF) over the past year than I ever recall having to do in seven years of playing live.  Heck, I had to do it just last night.  They think because they can be carried to level 50 in an AE farm by one Brute or Tanker, that they can be freely carried in anything as long as there is at least one level 50 on the team.  Then once they do get to level 50, all they know is what they learned in AE farms.  It's double XP which enables that.

I also agree that Powerleveling is out of hand. ANd most of the new players haven't learned to play their characters. In my personal opinion AE should have double influence, and higher rate of "good drops" but absolutely NO XP. I have no problem with it fueling the economy but it makes 7 out of 8 players lazy...

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13 minutes ago, Ukase said:

As far as Emp & threads & vet levels go, I'm fine with it. I know what to expect. I'd prefer to have the threads stop at vet level 14, or even 17. But that's because I am getting so weary of iTrials and the lazy way some folks choose to do them. "Slamda"? Some folks are completely unaware there are mobs around the facility that can be cleared for iXP. They just want the reward table as fast as they can get it. And, yeah, I'm getting bored with iTrials in general, too. It's been the same thing with over 30 level 50's...all I need now is the t-shirt. 

 

 

See the post I made right before yours.  It is what AE farming and double XP has taught the majority of new players to the game.  You can just sit back, relax, and go right from reward to reward with little effort.  They have no idea how to play the game any other way.

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24 minutes ago, Apparition said:

It's double XP which enables that.

I don't really follow the reasoning here. With or without DXP there are certain ways of playing that result in faster or effortless leveling up. Regardless of whether we had the option for DXP a portion of the players will always choose the path of least resistance and essentially nothing the developers can do will make these players choose story arcs over PLing and doorsitting. In all honesty, I think taking DXP out would increase the number of people who choose to PL because a change like that would double the difference between PLing and "just playing" in absolute terms (5 hours vs 25 hours is now 10 hours vs 50 hours). That would just make PLing even more appealing.

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I'm just chiming in on two things:

 

1) I also HATED the "raid for reward" system that was on LIVE. There were several aspects of it that were non-plusses for me that I'd rather not list. I'll just say this: for me the "challenge" of the system was wasting maximizing my time in specific end-game content.

 

2) I'm perfectly happy with the Homecoming end-game. I can see how it "feels" like a character isn't getting any more rewards after Vet level 99... except that we still get drops and influence. I don't want or need higher level challenges because I am perfectly capable of using Ouroboros to play low level content at +4/x8 to challenge myself without having access to my characters' full builds. Liekwise, I can unslot Incarnate powers for tougher challenges in the end-game.

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41 minutes ago, Ukase said:

I wanted to chime in here. On the first pass, I was a bit irritated, but then I opted to take a step back and actually think about this. 
Unfortunately, my response has less to do with Vet Rewards/Emps/Threads than it does the differences between HC's flavor of CoH and the original. 

There are a number of differences between HC and Paragon Studio's respective versions of CoH. 

Paragon                                                                                                               HC
Converter exchange : 10 reward merits for 1 Converter                                 Converter exchange : 1 reward merit for 3 converters

Packs were available via real world cash                                                         Packs are available, seeded on the AH for in game inf. 

Vanguard merits were good for limited items, storage, HVAC,                       Vanguard merits are also convertible to Reward Merits  

Costume unlocks.        

 

PvP recipes are only available via drops in pvp zones, and via                     PvP recipes & IOs are available from drops in PvE, no longer purchased by hero merits (or villain merits)

Hero/Villain & Emp Merits & Wentworths
Only ATOs & Event IOs (Overwhelming Force, Winter Sets) are                    All set enhancements may be attuned, either from purchasing them from the market already attuned, or using a catalyst. 

attuned. 

 

Vet level Emp & Thread bonuses didn't exist                                                  Vet levels give Emp & Thread bonuses. 

Unlocks of incarnate slots only get progress through iTrials &                       Incarnate unlock progress is gained in any content. 

other specific incarnate content (Apex/Tin Mage)

(to be transparent, I've only done the Mender Remiel arc to unlock alpha. I have no idea if this was unlockable doing non-incarnate content)

 

I didn't mention the seeded salvage, which prevents certain salvage from costing 2-10 million inf in HC's version. 

There are a lot more differences! In my mind, the biggest are the converter exchange, the attuned IOs that we can slot and maintain the set bonuses, and the ease of obtaining PvP IOs, compared to live. 

 

 

 

I'm going a little off topic, but thanks for putting this together.  It's a real eye opener as to how incredibly player friendly the game has become.

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I think the rewards may not be perfect, but are much better than on Live.

 

I'd like a smoothing pass on the whole Incarnate system. Maybe make Shards equal to 10 Threads and eliminate the whole Shard recipe thing (which is very confusing to players new and old). I very much like the fact that accumulating levels can continue past 50, albeit with less impact.

 

And I'd second the suggestion that added slots would be a cool reward. Not something to build around, but cool.

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On 7/13/2020 at 7:22 AM, Apparition said:

This is just pie in the sky wishful thinking, but I would like to see Incarnate threads and Empyrean merits removed from veteran levels.  It makes Incarnate abilities too easy to come by and leads to many saying that the game “is too easy.”

 

Oh, hell no.

Some of us don't have schedules that allow for forming or joining iTrials, and not every character is suitable for running the DA arcs solo. The level grants are a godsend for those situations.

 

Also... grinding iTrials until our eyes bled was never fun. Anything that moves us back in that direction is going to get a hard no from me, period.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Apparition said:

 

To be frank, the game needs to be made longer.  Double XP works great for us veterans who have played the game for years, but it has done a lot of harm to the game for newbies.  There are a lot, and I do mean a lot, of new players to the game over the past year with level 50 characters (multiple even), who between AE and double XP legitimately have no idea how to play the game.  I have had to kick more attempted door sitters from my Task Forces and Strike Forces (especially ITF) over the past year than I ever recall having to do in seven years of playing live.  Heck, I had to do it just last night.  They think because they can be carried to level 50 in an AE farm by one Brute or Tanker, that they can be freely carried in anything as long as there is at least one level 50 on the team.  Then once they do get to level 50, all they know is what they learned in AE farms.  It's double XP which enables that.

 

No, it's ignorance which allows that. You cure ignorance by educating players, not by changing the game.

 

I mean, really; "We must make the game LONGER for everyone because a small subset of players at 50 are clueless!" is your argument?

 

Utter nonsense.

 

Edited by Xanatos
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On 7/13/2020 at 10:22 AM, Apparition said:

This is just pie in the sky wishful thinking, but I would like to see Incarnate threads and Empyrean merits removed from veteran levels.  It makes Incarnate abilities too easy to come by and leads to many saying that the game “is too easy.”

Please no, I solo generally in the game as can't guarantee being able to make the time commitment for the trials.  So, it takes me a good amount of time to get to 50 and incarnates would be a true pain.  As the system is, I can generally get to the second to the highest tier of incarnate abilities through threads and merit around the time I finish the incarnate mission content.  I think it works out great.  The game being too easy is more of a factor of the AE farmers than those of us that are trying to enjoy the game and to keep rewards workable when your not doing taskforces and trials.

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58 minutes ago, DoctorDitko said:

I'd like a smoothing pass on the whole Incarnate system. Maybe make Shards equal to 10 Threads and eliminate the whole Shard recipe thing (which is very confusing to players new and old). I very much like the fact that accumulating levels can continue past 50, albeit with less impact.

Totally this. Why MMOs ever decided they need so many different currencies is nuts, let alone currencies that do the same thing.

 

(Though I know threads and shards only aligned their use with homecoming, but even so. Get rid of those dang shards.)

 

If we could email merits in bulk too, then the larger, obsolete merits could be phased out as well.

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I like the system as is for the most part.  My highest vet level is about 27, so I haven't gone the distance because once I get T4 incarnates I start an alt.  My suggestions are probably not realistic, but I'll throw them out there anyway as I think they might give some incentive for progression beyond Incarnates.  It would be interesting to see some data points on how many people actually achieve high vet levels.

  • At Vet Level 100 allow a character build to select a different secondary power set
    • I am a DP/MC Blaster and once I hit Vet Level 100 I can go to a separate character build and I can select a different Blaster secondary, so I could be a DP/EM (for example)
  • At Vet Level 200 allow a character to add a new slot to either Swift or Hurdle
  • At Vet Level 300 allow a character build to select a different primary power set
    • I am a DP/MC Blaster and once I hit Vet Level 200 I can go to a separate character build and I can select a different Blaster primary and secondary, so I could be an Archery/Devices (for example)
  • At Vet Level 400 allow a character to add a new slot to either Swift or Hurdle (the one not selected previously)
  • At Vet Level 500 open a new character build for 4 total
  • At Vet Level 600 allow a character to add a new slot to either Health or Stamina
  • At Vet Level 700 open a new character build for 5 total
  • At Vet Level 800 allow a character to add a new slot to either Health or Stamina (the one not selected previously)

 

What I think might be interesting is to take the character build idea and then allow advancement based on Vet Levels:

  • I am a DP/MC Blaster and once I hit Vet Level 100 I can go to a separate character build and I can select a different Blaster secondary, so I could be a DP/EM (for example)
  • I progress the secondary based on Vet Levels, so my next power selection for the secondary would be at Vet Level 104
  • If I am already at Vet Level 150 I would have all powers in the secondary available for selection
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Posted (edited)

In my opinion I don't see extra Veteran rewards as necessary. If you're still playing that character after all that time you're still getting something from it besides the usual rewards.

Edited by Frostbiter
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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Lines said:

Totally this. Why MMOs ever decided they need so many different currencies is nuts, let alone currencies that do the same thing.

 

It all comes down to money. Game developers (evil ones anyway) have discovered the trick of abstracting actual cash into various tokens. (I think Amway may have started this.)  That way your brain doesn't think, "I just blew my beer money on this stupid game." The farther from actual cash you can take it, the more players will spend. Evil, as I said.

 

Not needed in HC as it stands. Hopefully not ever.

Edited by DoctorDitko
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3 hours ago, Apparition said:

 

See the post I made right before yours.  It is what AE farming and double XP has taught the majority of new players to the game.  You can just sit back, relax, and go right from reward to reward with little effort.  They have no idea how to play the game any other way.

Sorry but that is BS. Even going back to issue 2 you could not go into Peregrine Island within a week of it being added without 30 dudes hanging out at the ferry begging in broadcast for power leveling. And they got it because back in those days you needed to buff out a team to get a full map spawn there was not setting for it. Even back then when accounts cost monthly money people had multiple accounts to farm with. Sure double xp was only going for a weekend here or there but people still would make 10 characters in a weekend to get multiple toons up into the 30s at least so they could skip the grind of the lower levels. 

 

People farm and speed content because there is a reward to it. PERIOD. It doesnt matter how new or old the player is, it doesnt matter how much or little of hte lore they know, how many characters they have or anything else. And frankly when you get up to the iTrial level they are speeding it because it is so boring to do the same few trials over and over again and it is decided that simply to speed to the reward table for most people is far more welcoming then killing every single mob in the map. By the time most people are trying to farm all that salvage to make incarnate powers they have unlocked all the slots and are likely not getting threads off leveling anymore anyway. So it is much faster to push through a Baf in 20 minutes or a 22.07 in 12 minutes to get a reward then the reward you actually get for killing the mobs.  People go for best reward for time played it is that simple and always will be. Extending that time only results in boredom and people deciding to move on to other games faster. 

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There is alot of talk on here about speeding things up or slowing things down ect, but i think that is getting away from the basic point of what might be more incentive thing to do with Vet rewards. I did a bit of math, which i can be wrong so someone might want to check out. But close as i figure it costs 276 Ems and 2640 threads to get all 6 incarnate powers to T4 assuming that you do not get any salvage drops and spend merits for rare and very rare and threads for everything common and uncommon. 

 

Now if you look at the current reward system by level 50 we will earn 280 Ems but only 960 threads. I personally think that there should be a level at which we can say that even if you did no itrials at all you could be seen to have completed the ability to max out your T4 powers. And i think vet level 50 is a nice place to say that. 50 levels to top IOs and such and 50 levels to complete incarnate. 

 

So my suggestion would be this, either up thread or EMs drops so that by level 50 you could complete your incarnates no matter of involvement in farming incarnate content. This means one of two things either we up the thread drops or up the EM drops with the intention of them being broken down to make up for threads (this i prefer because then if you do incarnate content and earn slavage the EMs can be transferred on account vs threads being locked) So it would mean that we need about 5 extra merits per EM award from levels 1-51. 

 

Then i think that post 51 we still get the badges up to level 99 or whatever they go to just because why not they exist. But forever on any character that is over level 51 you stop getting the incarnate rewards of EMs or Threads and every 3 levels you get a Winter Pack, Hero/Villain/Rogue/Vigilante pack or a Purple Recipe of your choice. (you get to choose because you still have to pay to craft it vs the random nature of packs) 

 

Now that way anyone that keeps playing a character can evenutally get t4s no matter what content they play in a fair amount of time, and any one that chooses to keep playing the character afterward gets a decently valuable reward every 3 levels no matter what level they achieve. And frankly it could not hurt prices in the AH to have more product available. 

 

Now keeping in mind that these changes would only work if there is no intention to ever complete the incarnate system with the remainder of the last 4 powers being that if they did we would need to keep earning those rewards to complete those powers. HOWEVER for those that think the game is already to fast and easy and characters to strong, perhaps if they did add the last 4 powers maybe having to have ALL the salvage be earned by playing incarnate content again like originally done might be a good thing for those  4 power choices. Just a thought. 

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I think veteran rewards are currently fine. I wouldn’t say no to a small reward at longer intervals past vet level 99, but don’t think it’s necessary. 
 

As for the “game is to easy” argument and wanting to make it more grindy...an absolute hell no from me. All that would do is likely make me quite the game. I loved the live game, but especially in the earlier game it was a slog, especially the lower levels. 
 

I really appreciated that homecoming removed a lot of the grind and made it more player friendly.  The quality of life improvements have made the game much more fun and accessible. 
 

There will always be players at end game that don’t know what they are doing. That is a player problem not a game problem. Best way to solve that is to teach them. If they don’t want to be taught, then put them on global ignore. Problem solved. 
 

People who want a long hard game can still choose that route by not taking double xp, not farming or doing any other sort of power leveling, not playing the market to get influence, not using IOs or incarnates to make content harder. The options are there. If you like grind you can still do so. 
 

The point is there are options for pretty much any playstyle and that is how it should be. Many of us are older now and have more responsibility. I can not devote a solid block of time to the game because I have family and work responsibilities that can interfere at a moments notice.
 

Homecoming has allowed this game to appeal to casual players who use the game as a hobby as well as hardcore grinders that enjoy spending 10s of hours per week on it. 

 

I vehemently disagree with the fun police that want to try taking away certain playstyles under the banner of game integrity or game health or whatever other buzzword none sense that is used. Game is just about perfect as is because it has options and accessibility that can apply to just about everyone.

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On 7/13/2020 at 11:57 AM, Black Zot said:

 

People will continue to whine the game is "too easy" long after the difficulty increases they demand have killed the server population forever.  "Too easy" is not a valid argument.

This is all just a fancy-ass game of Rock-Paper-Scissors, except unlike real RPS, 99.99999 percent of the time you're told in advance what the opponent is throwing; there's no 'difficulty' involved unless YOU make it so. 

 

Luckily, there are plenty of existing in-game mechanisms that a so-motivated individual could pursue if they wanted to up the 'difficulty' - they could not slot powers, or underslot them, donate all their inf to strangers, roll a petless mastermind, attempt 50+++ content on a league team led by a 38 or so, run an instanced MSR with 12 random people... really, any number of things.

 

I don't think fiddling with XP/reward drops or any of that is going to make the game more difficult, just less interesting for people who understand it will never be difficult.

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Personally, I really like the direction vet levels took with the Homecoming Team. . .

Everyone seems to argue about make it harder, make it easier, make it longer, but essentially this is a now a Free to Play game unless you donate and to keep people interested the main argument should be:
MAKE IT FUN

 

Those of us that started back in the day (issue 4 for me) know the ins and outs of this game fairly well. We know the TFs, trials, incarnate content, invention system and so on. . . Heck, the first day Homecoming rolled out and I made a character I went (at level 1) to PI and Founders Falls (2 of my favorite zones) and I knew every street and pathway to wander without dieing on a level 1!!!! And yes, it was surprising but also felt so good!!!

 

The only things I would like to see added to vet rewards that would make it fun for me:
Costume pieces that were never released due to clipping issues (PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF THE PARAGON CITY HEROES LET ME MAKE A TRUE CARNIE STRONGMAN Brute or an ANNOYING CARNIE ILLUSIONIST TROLLLER!)

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3 hours ago, QuiJon said:

There is alot of talk on here about speeding things up or slowing things down ect, but i think that is getting away from the basic point of what might be more incentive thing to do with Vet rewards. I did a bit of math, which i can be wrong so someone might want to check out. But close as i figure it costs 276 Ems and 2640 threads to get all 6 incarnate powers to T4 assuming that you do not get any salvage drops and spend merits for rare and very rare and threads for everything common and uncommon. 

 

Now if you look at the current reward system by level 50 we will earn 280 Ems but only 960 threads. I personally think that there should be a level at which we can say that even if you did no itrials at all you could be seen to have completed the ability to max out your T4 powers. And i think vet level 50 is a nice place to say that. 50 levels to top IOs and such and 50 levels to complete incarnate.

Except you get threads from everything, so you will, in fact be able to get all your Incarnate powers to T4 around vet level 50 even if you never set foot in incarnate content.  I know this because I've done it, just to see how long it would take.  (I did use shards and notices for some of the Alpha slot, because they're going to drop anyway so you might as well.)

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4 hours ago, Lines said:

Totally this. Why MMOs ever decided they need so many different currencies is nuts, let alone currencies that do the same thing.

 

(Though I know threads and shards only aligned their use with homecoming, but even so. Get rid of those dang shards.)

 

If we could email merits in bulk too, then the larger, obsolete merits could be phased out as well.

Um..you can email merits in bulk. 50 at a time, as hero merits. Can also email emp merits 50 at a time as transcendent merits. 

As for getting rid of shards, why would you? I got ...40 of them, I think in the past two days, enough to get myself from an unlocked alpha to two t-3s. Granted, I did two ms. libs, a kahn, and a couple of itfs, and opted for shard components if the ones offered were in my shard crafting tree (for lack of a better term). 

Shards are fantastic! A lot of folks disagree - but those folks are doing more itrials than I am. I get you want to use what you get from the rng, but because you're not getting any, don't take my stuff! 

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Other ideas for rewards for Vet Levels:

  • Add a extra story arc slot for AE at a certain Vet Level
  • Add slots for Sprint or Brawl at certain Vet Levels
  • Make Ninja Run or Beast Run inherent at a certain vet level and add slots at certain vet levels
  • Make a core travel power (SS, SJ, TP, Fly) inherent at a certain vet level and add slots at certain vet levels
    • Allow this inherent to violate the power pool rule of 4, but set it so you cannot select a power twice
      • Example: I have 4 power pools on my character and I get to Vet Level 800 and I can now select inherent Fly.  I did not have the Flight pool previously and it would have been unavailable based on the rule of 4, but as an inherent I can take it.
    • Example: I get to Vet Level 800 and I can now select inherent Fly.  I already have Fly in my build, so I have to respec to get the inherent Fly, but I can no longer choose the Fly power in the Flight travel pool.  However, the Fly inherent would count towards the power pool powers needed for powers.  Example: Air Superiority and inherent Flight would count as 2 picks in the Flight pool, so I could select Afterburner.
    • You might want to make the slots in the inherent powers only take basic IOs to prevent high Vet Level characters having an advantage, but maybe if they get to that high of a vet level they deserve a minor advantage.
  • Add a minor auto power at a certain vet level; maybe something similar to the base temp powers

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