Rad or Invuln

[Infinitum]

41 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

 

Yes, I'm aware that this is a specific term that you have invented rules for. I understand that. I just don't understand how this term is useful in any way to anyone but you.

Ok then post a mids build with P2W buffs in it.

 

I have never seen anyone that considers p2w buffs a part of a build, I really dont think you do either.

 

And again its fine if you use them - I could care less, but don't disguise what you are claiming a build does by the addition of p2w powers or a barrier click that doesnt last at that level for its duration its a phony number that wont be there 100% of the time.

 

Thats not me making it up, thats a fact partner.

47 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

But yes, back to min/maxing. Fine tuning stuff isn't about need. It's about making things optimal/easier. Because of Ageless, I don't have to worry as much when facing the ITF Kheldian boss ambush, Sappers, Carnies, Lord Recluse's End Drain, etc. Do I need it? No. It just makes the game easier.

 

And as it's not a need, it cannot be a crutch.

 

Make sense?

Yeah and ageless isnt your crutch the p2w buffs are.  Which is exactly what I said.

 

You dont need to drop ageless either - it is one of the most beneficial destinys in the game - but your build should be strong enough to not need p2w to be able to use ageless.  If thats the way you have it set up you took a wrong turn at alberquerquie at some point.

44 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

Valid playstyle. Valid builds. It's all about the goal of the player.

Playstyle yes, but claiming inspirations as a part of build planning, no.

[Bill Z Bubba]

21 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

but your build should be strong enough to not need p2w to be able to use ageless. 

I've spent a lot of brain cycles the last few days on this concept. I'm finding that it might not matter.

 

I used to be a purist. Didn't PL. Didn't think incarnate powers should be used at all in pylon testing. Sort of. The baseline was important. Finding out what could be done with incarnates was added fun. But that forced the question, "If we allow untoggled hybrid, why aren't we allowing it toggled?" I fire that thing off every time it's up. I don't bother saving it for big fights because it's probably going to be clickable again during those fights.

 

Same goes for lore pets. If I use them when I'm soloing hard stuff, why aren't I validating their effects when I'm testing pylons? They are part of the build now. The should be accounted for.

 

And if all that is true, and we're constantly hearing from folks the necessity of, say, clarion for squishies, why aren't we considering everything else a player can get their hands on?

 

Can you call a power a "temp" power when all you have to do is hit your base to refresh it? Or the P2W vendor? Hell, you can even hit the P2W vendor in Pocket D while on a TF. And if the amplifiers aren't counting as temp powers when you disable temps for a TF, who are we to say the game is wrong?

 

Sure, the amplifiers may not be in mids to turn on but if they were, we would see builds utilizing them. Even at 50 they're only 2.5mil a pop. 60 mil for 8 hours of all three? That's nothin. I can that back in an hour or so.

 

Is the purist still screaming? Yea. But I get the concept that a bunch of the rules we place on ourselves really are arbitrary. We can't bitch at one person using amplifiers and not do the same bitching at the folks forced to use clarion or rune of protection. We can attempt to make the argument that the amps are temp powers but they aren't. They can obviously be made, with no trouble, persistent in exactly the same way base buffs can be. I can't tell you how many times I've read "X hole can be easily filled with Y" so it doesn't matter anymore. We have people saying that blasters can tank. Game balance, as Werner pointed out, has sailed away.

 

Is there really a difference between spending INF on I Win buttons versus spending threads for incarnate powers? I have to argue that the answer is no. Distasteful as I find it, or found it, regardless.

 

Does this mean that I'm going to change the way I play? Or test? It already has. Blasters are more fun when they aren't licking dirt. Having persistent mez protection from 1 to 50 is a hell of a lot more fun that just having protection SOME of the time with Rune or having to wait until lvl 50+X for a T4ed clarion. Same is true for every other character without built in mez protection.

 

And if *THEY* get to do it, why can't the rest of us?

[Frosticus]

29 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Can you call a power a "temp" power when all you have to do is hit your base to refresh it? Or the P2W vendor? Hell, you can even hit the P2W vendor in Pocket D while on a TF. And if the amplifiers aren't counting as temp powers when you disable temps for a TF, who are we to say the game is wrong?

 

Sure, the amplifiers may not be in mids to turn on but if they were, we would see builds utilizing them. Even at 50 they're only 2.5mil a pop. 60 mil for 8 hours of all three? That's nothin. I can that back in an hour or so.

 

Is the purist still screaming? Yea. But I get the concept that a bunch of the rules we place on ourselves really are arbitrary. We can't bitch at one person using amplifiers and not do the same bitching at the folks forced to use clarion or rune of protection. We can attempt to make the argument that the amps are temp powers but they aren't. They can obviously be made, with no trouble, persistent in exactly the same way base buffs can be. I can't tell you how many times I've read "X hole can be easily filled with Y" so it doesn't matter anymore. We have people saying that blasters can tank. Game balance, as Werner pointed out, has sailed away.

 

Is there really a difference between spending INF on I Win buttons versus spending threads for incarnate powers? I have to argue that the answer is no. Distasteful as I find it, or found it, regardless.

It only matters when people don't disclose things. Disclose that a build cycles rune and melee hybrid for high uptime on said protections, disclose that a build uses p2w buffs as a key element of the build. If you quickly /ah between missions and refill with med purples, that is fine, but it needs to be disclosed that you haven't found some secret source of +25% def and leave others wondering how you do it.

 

No one has ever cared if someone has assault on/off for a pylon run, just that you note the status.  

 

There are very few undiscovered things in this game, so not disclosing is more akin to misleading imo.

 

Well I guess the next inevitable question seeing as how the goalposts have moved.

 

Rad w/ p2w buffs and a med purple

vs

Invuln w/ p2w buffs and a med purple

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Frosticus said:

Well I guess the next inevitable question seeing as how the goalposts have moved.

Those gorram goalposts. And that's crux. (Completely 100% agree with full disclosure, by the by.)

But it's the goalposts we're actually concerned with, right?

Thing is.... I remember when the goal was to be able to survive a full spawn in the RCS. I remember when the max diff of the game was essentially +2/x2.

The devs moved the goalposts. The SSPS folks moved them even more. I guess I just don't know where the goalposts are now.

[Supertanker]

On 8/3/2020 at 8:42 AM, Xanatos said:

I'd call equipping the extra buffs as tactics more than "build". But that's mostly semantics/personal preference.

(edit: not sure how this turned into a quote, it's my statement.)

Edited August 8, 2020 by Supertanker

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Those gorram goalposts. And that's crux. (Completely 100% agree with full disclosure, by the by.)

But it's the goalposts we're actually concerned with, right?

Thing is.... I remember when the goal was to be able to survive a full spawn in the RCS. I remember when the max diff of the game was essentially +2/x2.

The devs moved the goalposts. The SSPS folks moved them even more. I guess I just don't know where the goalposts are now.

Its All subjective, and none of then are really wrong or incorrect.

 

I never said they were - basically for me -

 

1. whatever I can level up.

2. Set bonuses - enh

3. Incarnate to permanently - alpha, interface, and persistent hybrid buff.

4. Permanent accolades.

 

That's where I place my baseline cause you can then say - hey this is what you can do without any outside assistance - and I usually attempt to make that part 99% unkillable based on that.

 

I'm not at all opposed to using any external buff, I usually have inspies in email for just such an occassion - but I don't include that as a baseline build - for advice.

 

That falls into the tips and tricks category.

 

I understand where Hyperstrike is on not including Incarnates because if you exemplar those are gone, but most of my content I play post 50 so thats why I decide to include that in my builds.

 

Just personal preference, but the most accurate build advise for a baseline is whats perma.

[Xanatos]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

And again its fine if you use them - I could care less, but don't disguise what you are claiming a build does by the addition of p2w powers or a barrier click that doesnt last at that level for its duration its a phony number that wont be there 100% of the time.

 

Barrier lasts for two minutes and has a two minute recharge. This means the +6% res and +5% defense from it can be cycled for a 100% up time.

 

So you are objectively wrong, here.

 

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

Your build should be strong enough to not need p2w to be able to use ageless.

 

First of all - why?

 

Second of all - if I wanted a build that didn't use P2W but did use Agless, I'd built for that. I don't. So I don't.

 

Thirdly - P2W exists. What would my motive be for ignoring it?

  

36 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

It only matters when people don't disclose things. Disclose that a build cycles rune and melee hybrid for high uptime on said protections, disclose that a build uses p2w buffs as a key element of the build. If you quickly /ah between missions and refill with med purples, that is fine, but it needs to be disclosed that you haven't found some secret source of +25% def and leave others wondering how you do it.

 

I did:

 

 

 

30 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Just personal preference, but the most accurate build advise for a baseline is whats perma.

 

Then you agree with me. *shrug*

[Infinitum]

19 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

Barrier lasts for two minutes and has a two minute recharge. This means the +6% res and +5% defense from it can be cycled for a 100% up time.

 

So you are objectively wrong, here.

No, haha I'm not, barriers total buff does not last for its duration, it scales down.

 

Someone of your knowledge knows this, so at best you are misrepresenting it.

19 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

First of all - why?

 

Second of all - if I wanted a build that didn't use P2W but did use Agless, I'd built for that. I don't. So I don't.

 

Thirdly - P2W exists. What would my motive be for ignoring it?

1. Because its fun for me

2. Um ok.

3. Because I choose not to use a crutch - and dont really need it cause my build is unkillable, sustainable and fun as it is - and I like it that way

 

 

Quoting the below

"I did:

 

 

 

 

End quote

 

Yeah, 9 days apart. 

 

And I agree with the tanker ATO part its crucial

 

But you kinda misrepresented there because I wasnt the only one wondering how you got those numbers, and was about to call BS on them but was distracted by the guy that was saying invul was weak in the first place.

 

Again, Destinys IMO aren't perma mitigation cause they are a scaling buff and hard to quantify how to describe in a build advice as a baseline.

 

19 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

 

Then you agree with me. *shrug*

No, not entirely.

 

It's semantics, but you are passing tactics off as build, and in reality they are two separate things.

 

A build is what you level, slot and put in game how it is 100% of the time without influencers.

 

Tactics are what you can use to make your build perform better some perma some not.

 

To newer players and especially people asking for build advice its important they understand that a baseline can do X and tactics will allow you to do Y.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Infinitum

[SwitchFade]

5 hours ago, Xanatos said:

 

 

With respect, "natively available" is a term you've made up which has zero in game value. P2W buffs are active 100% of the time I'm in game. Because of this, they are a better indicator of how I play CoH than Incarnates and IOs. (Due to IOs/incarnates vanishing/decreasing when I exemplar.)

 

But hey, you do you. These last few replies show that lots of players have their own, subjective, list of what does/doesn't "count". That's the fun thing about COH - the freedom to choose: Playing optimally, playing with restrictions, playing thematically, a mixture of all three? All playstyles are completely valid in a gamer that is mostly just PVE with zero competitive element.

 

 

When people say solo they mean they did it without other players. Similar to how soloing in a single player game works.

 

I can see why RPers might not see it that way, though. It's not just a game to them. It's an expression of character.

Respectfully, I don't really need an explanation of what they mean when they say it, I'm well aware 😉

 

It's the same as when I see people claim they can bench press 405lbs... With a compression shirt, wrist wraps, help lifting it off the rack, half repping or bouncing off their chest...

 

Summons and temps to me mean the build can't do what one claims, without outside help. Alpha and hybrid are enhancing an aspect of the build that already is inherent, where as havaing to revisit p2w or base temp to refresh is, to me, outside the build itself. All that said, no disrespect, it's totally cool, but it's still not what I consider Solo. Additionally, I'm not a role player, but I do build characters for theme, because it's personally neat to have a concept.

 

Again, I'm perfectly ok with anyone claiming or thinking it, and why I haven't mentioned it before.

 

But 405 with no help and no wraps or shirts or help is in a different league then with all the handicaps.

[Xanatos]

2 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Respectfully, I don't really need an explanation of what they mean when they say it, I'm well aware 😉

 

It's the same as when I see people claim they can bench press 405lbs... With a compression shirt, wrist wraps, help lifting it off the rack, half repping or bouncing off their chest...

 

Summons and temps to me mean the build can't do what one claims, without outside help. Alpha and hybrid are enhancing an aspect of the build that already is inherent, where as havaing to revisit p2w or base temp to refresh is, to me, outside the build itself. All that said, no disrespect, it's totally cool, but it's still not what I consider Solo. Additionally, I'm not a role player, but I do build characters for theme, because it's personally neat to have a concept.

 

Again, I'm perfectly ok with anyone claiming or thinking it, and why I haven't mentioned it before.

 

But 405 with no help and no wraps or shirts or help is in a different league then with all the handicaps.

 

Yeah that's what I was saying. Some people consider soloing what they, a player can do. Some people consider soloing what the build can do. I'd be hesitant to call either of these perspectives wrong. (Because who am I to say what does/does not count?)

 

That said,  I don't see the value of looking at builds in isolation, especially when they exist in a game where they coexist with all of these other things. Such as P2W buffs, insps, base buffs, etc. No-one, despite me asking a few times, has told me why looking at IO or IO+Incarnate builds in isolation is a good thing.

 

Overall, I think the problem with MMORPGs is that powergamers tell casuals they're playing bad, and that casuals tell powergamers they aren't playing. Both sides are wrong.

[Xanatos]

23 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

No, haha I'm not, barriers total buff does not last for its duration, it scales down.

 

Okay, gonna ignore the rest because we're going in circles. We know each other's position. Let's just leave the rest up to fate. But I wanted to touch on this again.

 

Barrier provides four buffs: One lasts ten seconds. One lasts 30 seconds. One lasts a minute. One lasts two minutes.

 

The two minute one provides ~6% resistance and 5% defence.

 

You can perma this.

 

Proof:

[Infinitum]

18 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

That said,  I don't see the value of looking at builds in isolation, especially when they exist in a game where they coexist with all of these other things. Such as P2W buffs, insps, base buffs, etc. No-one, despite me asking a few times, has told me why looking at IO or IO+Incarnate builds in isolation is a good thing.

Well, thats an easy one.

 

The value lies in a baseline telling you how various builds compare.

 

If they are all buffed to cap by outside influences then you cant truly tell how the build itself performs in a vacuum against other sets.

 

With that you would never know if one was underperforming.

 

Thats why I always advise at the baseline.

[Infinitum]

1 minute ago, Xanatos said:

 

Okay, gonna ignore the rest because we're going in circles. We know each other's position. Let's just leave the rest up to fate. But I wanted to touch on this again.

 

Barrier provides four buffs: One lasts ten seconds. One lasts 30 seconds. One lasts a minute. One lasts two minutes.

 

The two minute one provides ~6% resistance and 5% defence.

 

You can perma this.

 

Proof:

I dont need proof of that, I know this and have said the same thing.

 

It is a buff that scales down, its max buff is not perma, and there are usually better uses of a destiny, because on most tank builds barrier is overkill.

 

I have it on my fire tank and thats about it - fire being the weakest set with no native defense - its very useful on it.

[Xanatos]

Xanatos: I use barrier's perma 2m buff.

Infinitron: IT'S NOT PERMA

Xanatos: Yes it is. See. *provides proof.*

Infinitron: I ALREADY KNOW THAT.

 

O_o

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, Xanatos said:

Xanatos: I use barrier's perma 2m buff.

Infinitron: IT'S NOT PERMA

Xanatos: Yes it is. See. *provides proof.*

Infinitron: I ALREADY KNOW THAT.

 

O_o

I'll take misrepresentation for 100 alex.

 

[Hyperstrike]

5 hours ago, Xanatos said:

Damn, guess that's the thread over. GG, everyone. Was fun.

 

#nerfhyperstrike.

As a drill sergeant of my used to say "Can't smoke a rock".

Of course, this was in the days before general penetration of crack cocaine into the public consciousness took hold...

[Hyperstrike]

3 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I used to be a purist. Didn't PL. Didn't think incarnate powers should be used at all in pylon testing. Sort of.

Welcome to the Dark Side!

Here's your cookies!

[Greentea]

Jesus..this is getting off topic. I wonder if OP got his answer. 🤣

[Sovera]

11 hours ago, Xanatos said:

Xanatos: I use barrier's perma 2m buff.

Infinitron: IT'S NOT PERMA

Xanatos: Yes it is. See. *provides proof.*

Infinitron: I ALREADY KNOW THAT.

 

O_o

For once I have to agree. I may or may not agree with the rest, but this part yeah.

 

P2W is nice though. Doing AE missions with mobs that feared I got through my emergency breakfrees and eventually bought an hour of the Defense Amplifier to get rid of it.

 

But it's too expensive for me to use all the time.

 

*sits on 1.3b raw inf not accounting for what is in the SG bins and slotted on other characters*

[Sovera]

14 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I've spent a lot of brain cycles the last few days on this concept. I'm finding that it might not matter.

 

I used to be a purist. Didn't PL. Didn't think incarnate powers should be used at all in pylon testing. Sort of. The baseline was important. Finding out what could be done with incarnates was added fun. But that forced the question, "If we allow untoggled hybrid, why aren't we allowing it toggled?" I fire that thing off every time it's up. I don't bother saving it for big fights because it's probably going to be clickable again during those fights.

It does not really matter. People who want to do it can do it. Using Lores against pylons or P2W buffs. Perfectly fine. The only thing that matters is not 'cheating' in the same way kids will use aimbots in an FPS game for... reasons (I tried asking my brother who extensively plays FPS games what is gained from using cheats that play the game, in a game that has no rewards and is played for the sake of playing. He said it was for the adulation and passing as a good player).

 

As long as we don't have things like someone coming happy to say how they got a two minute run with a build, and someone else comes to brag how they did it in one minute, but does not mention they had amplifiers and clicked Hybrid, then that is fine. Basically just use amplifiers, and hybrids, and lores, but simply jot it down when putting down the times.

 

It's not a competition, we're trying to learn from each other.

[Infinitum]

4 hours ago, Sovera said:

For once I have to agree. I may or may not agree with the rest, but this part yeah.

 

P2W is nice though. Doing AE missions with mobs that feared I got through my emergency breakfrees and eventually bought an hour of the Defense Amplifier to get rid of it.

 

But it's too expensive for me to use all the time.

 

*sits on 1.3b raw inf not accounting for what is in the SG bins and slotted on other characters*

Lol watch the picture show.

 

 

 

 

 

My point is and always was - ageless is more valuable and the barrier buff is either overkill on most tankers or not noticeable because 6 % is lol on a resistance tank if you arent already at the cap anyway and on an invul tank it wont matter because you can get to 70% resist across the board in your sleep and with 3 MotT procs be at 82% easily with invul saturated - 6 percent more wont matter - go with the ageless so you get extra DDR.

 

Furthermore if you are at those levels you don't even need the p2w buffs to cap your res - you are just throwing your inf away at that point and its honestly bad advice for this conversation about rad or invul.  Maybe not related to something else but here a good baseline buildnis largely unkillable anyway.

 

See My point now?  It was never about barrier being perma - it's largest buff isn't perma and the buff that is shouldn't matter it's so small its not going to change much of anything how survivable either of these two are - maybe if the rad was fighting a winter lord once a year?

 

Barrier is useful on fire tanks, but thats about the only thing I put barrier on.

[Haijinx]

8 hours ago, Heliodorus said:

Jesus..this is getting off topic. I wonder if OP got his answer. 🤣

The answer .. learned years ago as a WP tanker ..

 

Never argue with the INV guys ...

 

Even the INV guys shouldn't argue with the INV guys apparently. 

 

 

[Infinitum]

20 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

The answer .. learned years ago as a WP tanker ..

 

Never argue with the INV guys ...

 

Even the INV guys shouldn't argue with the INV guys apparently. 

 

 

Blame unyielding.  Hehe

[Piecemeal]

Hi there, just weighing in with my 2 influence.

 

I love Invuln. It was my first love, solidly built, and very much set-and-forget. Invincibility is the clutch power.

 

Rad armor, however, super dynamic. I love the design of Gamma Boost. But it requires, to me, way more attention managing your health than most. A growing Rad armor can feel... fragile. A fully built one? Ridiculous fun.

[Xanatos]

3 hours ago, Infinitum said:

My point is and always was - ageless is more valuable and the barrier buff is either overkill on most tankers or not noticeable because 6 % is lol on a resistance tank if you arent already at the cap anyway and on an invul tank it wont matter because you can get to 70% resist across the board in your sleep and with 3 MotT procs be at 82% easily with invul saturated - 6 percent more wont matter - go with the ageless so you get extra DDR.

 

Furthermore if you are at those levels you don't even need the p2w buffs to cap your res - you are just throwing your inf away at that point and its honestly bad advice for this conversation about rad or invul.  Maybe not related to something else but here a good baseline buildnis largely unkillable anyway.

 

See My point now?  It was never about barrier being perma - it's largest buff isn't perma and the buff that is shouldn't matter it's so small its not going to change much of anything how survivable either of these two are - maybe if the rad was fighting a winter lord once a year?

 

Barrier is useful on fire tanks, but thats about the only thing I put barrier on.

 

In the post where I revealed how I got the numbers, I specifically said the 2m barrier buff was what I used. At no point was I, or anyone else, talking about the 10 sec/30sec/60sec barrier buff. So you ranting about the 10 sec/30sec/60sec buffs being useless was at best not a counter to anything I said, and at worst completely irrelevant to the conversation. ("At worst" means that there is a case where it could be relevant, but only tangentially. For example, saying "Yeah the 2m barrier buff helps cap you, but that means you're not using the better buffs to help the team when they need it". It does not counter my point, but it widens the context of the discussion to make for a richer debate.)

 

And yes, it's perfectly viable to go with lower resist, take Ageless, and still tank fine. But if you're happy playing an invuln tank at 82% resist...play an invuln brute. You'll do more damage.

 

I'm glad you copied my forum PVP strategy of screenshotting posts. I hope you one day copy my P2W strategy, much like others in this thread are coming around to. I believe in you, Infinitum. Even if I've never seen you and @Hjarki in the same room.

 

3 hours ago, Haijinx said:

The answer .. learned years ago as a WP tanker ..

 

Never argue with the INV guys ...

 

Even the INV guys shouldn't argue with the INV guys apparently. 

 

 

 

Haha, yeah I've had quite a lot of rage thrown my way in this thread. (My favorite was someone replying "Go back to remedial math class" right before realising they'd got the numbers wrong, and ninja-editing their post.) It doesn't bother me, I was raised in CoH. I've got a pretty thick skin. Pretty sure everyone else here does, too. After all, we're tanks.

Edited August 9, 2020 by Xanatos