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Rad or Invuln

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12 minutes ago, Werner said:

Dark/Katana without Ageless Radial fighting Cimerorans, perhaps. But yes, 59% with no DDR probably won't be a common situation.

Thanks, that is an example I hadn't thought of, but if that's the only niche example, that same Tank would probably also be S/L/N resist capped and shouldn't face any danger in an ITF anyway.  

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Posted (edited)

In case there's confusion about how overcapped defense and no DDR works, here's my Dark/MA Tanker after being hit once by a +3 Cimeroran boss. He's normally at 44.44% ranged defense, 55.07% melee defense. He takes a single 13.30% defense debuff with no DDR. Now he's at 44.44% - 13.30% = 31.14% ranged and 55.07% - 13.30% = 41.77% melee defense. With no DDR, every defense debuff is a simple subtraction, but it's nicer being at 41.77% than at 31.14% after that first defense debuff, so overcapping can help. Against a crowd of Cimerorans, it might only buy you a couple extra seconds before your defense collapses completely, but against light debuffers, it can sometimes be enough to hold the line, with one debuff wearing off before the next hits. 

NoDDR2.PNG.39e20c773b038d09b306f6def2d825d4.PNG

NoDDR.PNG.34ab54cb9e98fff326a7d74bc5a7a60e.PNG

Edited by Werner
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2 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

Thanks, that is an example I hadn't thought of, but if that's the only niche example, that same Tank would probably also be S/L/N resist capped and shouldn't face any danger in an ITF anyway.  

Agreed, you'd be SLN resist capped with a full heal every 10-15 seconds and in no real danger, and could easily stack raw defense well over 59% if needed for some reason. I only have a Katana/Dark Brute, so he's in a bit of danger soloing the ITF at +4x8, but nothing unmanageable. I just need to pay attention. My Dark/MA Tanker with 55% melee is in some danger on a +4x8 enemies buffed ITF, but without enemies buffed and taking less than half the incoming damage, probably almost no danger.

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1 hour ago, Werner said:

I assume you meant to say 95% DDR? And I assume that by “before your defense starts to drop” you mean drop to the point where garden-variety non-incarnate enemies have a higher chance of hitting you?

No, I didn't. I meant to say 50% DDR because this isn't about Super Reflexes - it's about Invulnerability vs. Radiation.

 

Also, as you later noted, it's a relevant distinction because there are melee sets where you can get upwards of 45% Melee Defense from the melee set.

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2 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

No, I didn't. I meant to say 50% DDR because this isn't about Super Reflexes - it's about Invulnerability vs. Radiation.

 

Also, as you later noted, it's a relevant distinction because there are melee sets where you can get upwards of 45% Melee Defense from the melee set.

But then you should be comparing apples to apples.  Saying Rad/Kat gives better defense than Inv/SS is a stupid conversation to have.  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Hjarki said:

No, I didn't. I meant to say 50% DDR because this isn't about Super Reflexes - it's about Invulnerability vs. Radiation.

Then you’re off by an order of magnitude. A 5% defense debuff hitting 50% DDR will result in a 2.5% defense debuff, not a 0.25% defense debuff. And it will take (59% - 45%) / 2.5% = 5.6 such debuffs before we drop to the regular soft cap, not 56. Your point might still stand, of course, if your point was that an Invuln with 59% defense and 50% DDR can handle a little defense debuffing in regular content just fine. It can indeed, particularly if the 59% is with one target in range. Radiation builds would have lower defense and no DDR if comparing apples to apples, but of course bring plenty of other goodies to the table. I don’t have any Radiation experience to compare the sets overall. Just commenting on the defense and DDR aspect.

Edited by Werner

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On 7/19/2020 at 11:56 AM, Hyperstrike said:


Invuln doesn't need to bring a lot to the table.
It's pretty much self-sufficient.

When you can soft-cap your Typed Defenses with zero enemies in range?
When, in a large enough group, saturated Invincibility gives you Typed Defenses well above the INCARNATE SOFT-CAP.
When your resting End consumption is below 0.8 without Energy Master/Conserve Power and your Recovery is 3.05?
When, underneath that massive Defense you're looking at 90/80/80/60/30.
 

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Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.7.2.10
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

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Mo Durable 2a: Level 50 Technology Tanker
Primary Power Set: Invulnerability
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Flight
Ancillary Pool: Pyre Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Resist Physical Damage -- RctArm-ResDam:40(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(3), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(3), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(5), GldArm-3defTpProc:50(5), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(7)
Level 1: Jab -- SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprMghoft-Dmg/Rchg:50(7), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(9), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(9), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(11), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%:50(11)
Level 2: Temp Invulnerability -- UnbGrd-ResDam:50(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(13), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam:50(13), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(15), UnbGrd-Max HP%:50(15)
Level 4: Haymaker -- SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg:50(19), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(21), SprGntFis-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(21), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(23), SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb:50(23)
Level 6: Dull Pain -- DctWnd-Heal/Rchg:50(A), NmnCnv-Heal/Rchg:50(50), Pnc-Heal/Rchg:50(50)
Level 8: Resist Elements -- RctArm-ResDam:40(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(25), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(25), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(27)
Level 10: Taunt -- PrfZng-Dam%:50(A)
Level 12: Unyielding -- UnbGrd-ResDam:50(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx:50(27), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam:50(29), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:50(29)
Level 14: Resist Energies -- RctArm-ResDam:40(A), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(31), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(31), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(31)
Level 16: Kick -- FrcFdb-Rechg%:50(A)
Level 18: Invincibility -- ShlWal-Def:50(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx:50(33), ShlWal-Def/Rchg:50(33), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(33), Rct-ResDam%:50(34)
Level 20: Knockout Blow -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx:50(34), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(34), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(36), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(36), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc:50(36)
Level 22: Tough -- ImpArm-ResPsi:40(A)
Level 24: Weave -- ShlWal-Def:50(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx:50(37), ShlWal-Def/Rchg:50(37), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(37)
Level 26: Tough Hide -- ShlWal-Def:50(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx:50(39), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(39), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP:50(39)
Level 28: Rage -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(40)
Level 30: Combat Jumping -- ShlWal-Def:50(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx:50(40), ShlWal-Def/Rchg:50(40), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(42)
Level 32: Super Jump -- WntGif-ResSlow:50(A)
Level 35: Hurl -- SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprWntBit-Dmg/Rchg:50(42), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(42), SprWntBit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(43), SprWntBit-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg:50(43), SprWntBit-Rchg/SlowProc:50(43)
Level 38: Foot Stomp -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg:50(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx:50(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(45), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(46), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc:50(46)
Level 41: Char -- SprEnt-Acc/Hold:50(A), SprEnt-Hold/Rchg:50(46), SprEnt-End/Rchg:50(48), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End:50(48), SprEnt-Acc/Hold/End/Rchg:50(48)
Level 44: Hasten -- RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(50)
Level 47: Hover -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+:50(A)
Level 49: Fly -- Frb-Stlth:50(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Flight-I:50(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End:50(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+:50(17), Mrc-Rcvry+:40(17)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%:50(A), PrfShf-EndMod:50(19)
Level 50: Resilient Core Paragon
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
------------

 

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Hell, with Invuln, the entire Fighting pool is OPTIONAL

And Invuln is, generally this tough across MULTIPLE builds.  There's no One True Way to min-max it.

Sorry, but what you're saying about Invuln simply doesn't jive with reality.

The fact that the fighting pool is optional makes invul a little OP for tankers in the final stages.

 

Makes it amazing for Brutes, Scrappers and numbers wise Stalkers (never tried the last one.)

 

Unless you have some build in mind where you need all those powers I guess.   I never have enough slots for swiss army knife builds myself.

 

 Calling it weak though seems odd.  Invul is very strong.  

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Posted (edited)

The thing with the Invuln/Rad comparison, and why people can simultaneously say 'Invuln is too strong' and 'Invuln is not that strong'.. and BOTH BE RIGHT.. is that the two sets respond very differently to different levels of investment.

 

Lets discuss three investment levels:

 

1.)  SOs/Setless IOs - Basic, straightforward building from the days before sets.  Will be cheap, and leaves every set performing at its 'natural' level.

 

2.)  Maximum Survival - Powers, sets, set bonuses chosen for survival.  Damage isnt ignored, but your not proccing for damage, your not maximizing DPS choices and power picks - your a tank, and damage is a nice side effect, not a goal.

 

3.)  Medium Survival - Investment where possible in survival, but budget restrictions or other build goals like recharge, damage, utility, etc. also consume build space.

 

At SOs, Invuln is amazing - no need for set bonuses, your can get solid DEF and cap the most important Resist.  Radiation at SOs is quite tough, and gives lots of other bennies - but is not AS tough, so Invuln stands out at least for survival.

 

Maximum Survival:   Invuln is incredibly tough here.  Softcap DEF, Incarnate Softcap when saturated, and oh also capped smash/lethal/energy.  If your willing to take a hit on offense and recharge and utility, Invuln is one of the toughest things out there, bar none.  A similar investment in my Radiation Tank wont make a character as tough - I cant get the DEF, and I certainly cant get the DDR - even a massive investment in DEF will be crushed in short order by many villain groups, and then Ive just got RES - while the Invuln tank is equally capped on most resists (though not all), and is getting hit only a fraction as often.  Basically, once you cap your resists, Radiation doesnt see a lot of value in additional survival investment.

 

In the middle is where Radiation feels like a better set.  Given set bonuses, a Radiation Tank can fairly quickly and cheaply (in terms of build room, powers, slots) get to its important resist caps.  This capped resist, coupled with its heals and absorbs, makes it tough enough to handle basically anything.  And it is doing so while having all sorts of utility that the Invuln is not.  At this investment level, the Invuln is tougher in some ways, worse in others, but its not an obvious advantage (mostly, the invuln is tougher against S/L, and the Radiation is better against most everything else). 

 

This is why some people say Radiation is 'better' - both can be made tough enough to handle most everything, but the Radiation will be better AT OTHER THINGS at that investment level.  The Invuln can be tougher as a pure survival tank... but most of that headroom is wasted, because both sets are tough enough to handle everything they face (and the Radiation will be better against quite a few things, due to being a broader, and later/better designed, set).

 

 

For my own part, Ive leaned into both sides of this equation - my 'mains' are an Invuln/Energy Melee and a Rad/SS, and Ive tried to make this work for me:  

 

My Invuln runs multiple builds, from a general purpose AOE/Exemplar/General Purpse build, through a 'No Holds Barred' pure single-target AV killer (its no Bio/TW, but it does the job), and a 'never say dead' build that focuses on DEF and RES and team-tanking endgame content.  This gives me something for every occasion (and the 'Generic' Build is arguably the most fun, and can do everything but kill level-shifted AVs pretty effectively).  The Invuln can be built SOOO many different ways that Im having fun collecting every incarnate of interest, lots of build options, etc.  

 

The Rad/SS just runs one build, and wont need any more.  Her damage heavy, moderate survival investment is still tough enough to 4/8 everything, while having great overall performance.  Some of this is because SS is just so broken good, but a lot is because Rad gives so much on a small investment which lets me leverage the Superstrength. 

 

She isnt as good in any area as the three focused Invuln builds (and I cant build her to Exemp as well as the Exemp build, or to tank as well as the pure tank build - she can out-DPS the AV killer, but she cant survive some of the AVs that my AV killer will), but aside from exemping, shes 'generically' stronger, taking an average of performance metrics.

 

Edited by marcussmythe
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Great Justice - Invuln/Energy Melee Tank

Ann Atomic - Radiation/Super Strength Tank

Elecutrix - Electric Blast/Super Reflexes Sentinel

Ramayael - Titan Weapons/Bio Scrapper

C'len - Spines/Bio Brute

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4 hours ago, Omega-202 said:

eating enough purple pills to kill a camel

winner!

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I feel a need to follow the 'investment' conversation with a few more random thoughts - because AT Choice is ALSO an investment level choice, and one that sets your 'floor' and 'ceiling' investment levels.

 

SR is much like Radiation, for me - Its soooo much fun to build/plan, because (like Radiation) you can accomplish all your build goals very very quickly, so you have a lot of room to chase other goals.  Now, unlike Radiation, SR can ALSO chase extra survival VERY well - layering more RES on an SR is actually amazingly valuable, due to SRs scaling resist as HP drops - and ESPECIALLY on an SR Tank, which has the large HP pool to leverage those scaling resists.  On the other hand, SR does not bring as many side bennies to the party as Radiation does.

 

The amusing thing is that, as we move back up the 'resilience' scale, build space and priorities change.  For Brutes, I like pure  sets - I can get to that 90% Resist cap (albeit at higher investment), and I lose some breathing room on damage building - but Ive got Fury, I dont need it as much.  The Pure DEF sets are similar - though a Scrapper could also get to the same DEF as the Brute, and do it with more damage, I like the breathing room fury gives me, and I like having a Brutes HP to work with.  Hybrid sets I dont much care for on Brutes - the lower values that something like Invuln gets on Brutes make it harder for me to do anything with, without going 'all in' the way I would on a pure survival build for a tank.  

 

Once we get to Scrapper/Stalker/Sentinel, I start to like the hybrid sets, again - because here, Im making a significant investment on both sides of the hybrid, but I can afford to go even more into survival, because the scrapper hits so hard to begin with.  I still like the pure DEF sets, as well.. especially if I want to combine survival and damage investments.  Im not so much a fan of the pure RES sets here, because 75% just feels breakable to me.

 

Its all about what performs, where, at what investment level, and with what goals.  While I'll still post a flag on the 'Some sets are just a bit better than others', as I play more and more with the design space and get more time PLAYED on those 'supersets', the more I'm starting to feel that the outliers dont lie as far out as it seems.  My Bioarmor Murdermachines look at Vanguard and PPD-Awakened and cry in a corner.  My Rad Armor doesnt dodge ANYTHING - she resists most debuffs, but against any debuff she DOESNT resist, getting hit with EVERY ONE OF THEM gets really, really old really, really quickly - and Ive also taken heavy damage very quickly when the CC piles up (because nothing misses) and all her toggles suppress -  Ann Atomic has spent quality time walking around dazed in front of Malta from all the grenades (I think it was grenades), and is closer to her 'held' badges at Vet 10 than Great Justice is at Vet 100.  My little SRs makes me so happy and feel so easy to build compared to the others - but then some DE Jerks lay down a crystal and I'm down.  

 


Great Justice - Invuln/Energy Melee Tank

Ann Atomic - Radiation/Super Strength Tank

Elecutrix - Electric Blast/Super Reflexes Sentinel

Ramayael - Titan Weapons/Bio Scrapper

C'len - Spines/Bio Brute

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Hjarki said:

So let's say you're at 59% defense/0% DDR and receive a -5% defense attack. The expected value of this attack is -5% * 0.05 = -0.25%. It will remain at this level until you drop below 45% Defense, so you can suffer (59 - 45) / 0.25 = 56 such attacks before your defense starts to drop.

A few things here. You are forgetting to factor in accuracy modifiers for rank and level. Unless you're only fighting same-level minions, then you're right to assume they have a 5% probability to hit you. Otherwise, it will be higher.

 

The correct analysis to do is figure out what is the average number of attacks per second you are facing, factor in the amount and duration of a defense debuff, then evaluate the probability of being hit enough times within that duration to eventually cause the probability of hitting you to increase (when defense becomes less than 45%). At that point, you need to determine if you will proceed to hit cascading failure or if you will simply live on the edge of that 45% defense (it's possible debuffs end right before you get hit with another that would cause you to fail).

 

Luckily, we don't HAVE to do all that math. I built a program last year (ok, a script technically) that will take your starting defense, your DDR, the average number of attacks per second you face, the amount of defense debuff in the attack, the duration of the debuff, and I run over a thousand simulations in seconds to plot out the performance, drawing a pretty red line that shows your average performance over time.

 

For example, let's assume you are facing a +3 mob of LTs (instead of averaging out minions and bosses, i'll just use the LT accuracy modifier of 15%). Let's assume the incoming attacks are 2 per second and the debuff amount is 5% and the duration of a debuff is 10s. What would your performance look like if you have 59% defense and no DDR and the enemy has base 50% To-Hit?

 

image.thumb.png.12c4df983f42cc54a183b3701fdb1865.png

 

Good news, in this scenario, you can go "on average" 37 seconds before your defense dips below 45%. That is very good, it means you will likely have moved on from those enemies before that point would occur. However, it's not all roses. Those black lines you see on the graph are actual results from simulations and you can see you will on occasion reach cascading failure very quickly if you get unlucky with RNG.

 

For what it's worth, same scenario for 45% with 50% DDR.

image.thumb.png.298d080e7ca56a90536f2ec1a22377ed.png

Here, very interesting results. On one hand, it goes into sub 45% defense immediately (no surprise there) but on average the cascading failure doesn't happen. It actually levels off around 30% defense. Sure, it can proceed to cascade failures too by evidence of the simulations that dropped to 10% and below, but over the long run it did hold up somewhat ok.

 

 

Hope that helps. Don't take the two plots as definitive evidence, it is merely a data point for a single set of parameters and is not all-encompassing of what you have in game. 

Edited by Bopper
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14 minutes ago, Bopper said:

*stuff*

Well, that's impressive.  And it makes intellectual sense, while pointing out something that I should have considered but did not - the fact that even though its defense drops more quickly, the presence of DDR not only delays the failure, but puts a limit on the rate of that failure - because the bad guys attack at a fixed rate, with debuffs of a fixed value, the most they could EVER decrease your defense by is limited by their attack speed, numbers, and the debuff value of those attacks.  Essentially, the DDR set fails more gracefully, in the general condition.

 

 


Great Justice - Invuln/Energy Melee Tank

Ann Atomic - Radiation/Super Strength Tank

Elecutrix - Electric Blast/Super Reflexes Sentinel

Ramayael - Titan Weapons/Bio Scrapper

C'len - Spines/Bio Brute

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, marcussmythe said:

Well, that's impressive.  And it makes intellectual sense, while pointing out something that I should have considered but did not - the fact that even though its defense drops more quickly, the presence of DDR not only delays the failure, but puts a limit on the rate of that failure - because the bad guys attack at a fixed rate, with debuffs of a fixed value, the most they could EVER decrease your defense by is limited by their attack speed, numbers, and the debuff value of those attacks.  Essentially, the DDR set fails more gracefully, in the general condition.

 

 

absolutely. I never revisited the math after building my simulator, but if I were to derive a formula it would certainly be a function of number of attacks per second, amount of debuff per attack, and the duration window of the debuff. My guess is, I will take the average number of attacks in a window and calculate from there, but let's be honest, we're talking about deriving random processes...and I barely still remember how to solve random vectors. Throw time into it and my brain wants to shut off.

Edited by Bopper


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19 minutes ago, Bopper said:

absolutely. I never revisited the math after building my simulator, but if I were to derive a formula it would certainly be a function of number of attacks per second, amount of debuff per attack, and the duration window of the debuff. My guess is, I will take the average number of attacks in a window and calculate from there, but let's be honest, we're talking about deriving random processes...and I barely still remember how to solve random vectors. Throw time into it and my brain wants to shut off.

This also suggests that a set like SR, which can combine overcapping with substantial DDR could be in many situations effectively immune to defense debuff - because they wont be debuffed below softcap by any series of attacks, or any series of attacks that is likely enough to matter, or by any series of attacks that wouldnt have already killed it on the basic 'SR dies when the bad guys roll 20s' sense.


Great Justice - Invuln/Energy Melee Tank

Ann Atomic - Radiation/Super Strength Tank

Elecutrix - Electric Blast/Super Reflexes Sentinel

Ramayael - Titan Weapons/Bio Scrapper

C'len - Spines/Bio Brute

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16 minutes ago, marcussmythe said:

This also suggests that a set like SR, which can combine overcapping with substantial DDR could be in many situations effectively immune to defense debuff - because they wont be debuffed below softcap by any series of attacks, or any series of attacks that is likely enough to matter, or by any series of attacks that wouldnt have already killed it on the basic 'SR dies when the bad guys roll 20s' sense.

It depends on how strong the debuffs are and what your defense was originally set at. But with 95% DDR and a nice cushion of defense, most likely you won't succumb to defense debuffs. More likely To-Hit buffs or lucky RNG.

 

There is an arc in DA, I think it's Part 3 (Face of the PPD). Lots of defense debuffs in that mission. A good test for seeing how you handle debuffs. I want to say 7.5% for 10s, but there are lots of attacks and its hard to follow each



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Worse than Cimerrora?  Wow.

 

Though I think the real worry for SR is Quartz and Nemesis, at least for mine, more than debuffs.


Great Justice - Invuln/Energy Melee Tank

Ann Atomic - Radiation/Super Strength Tank

Elecutrix - Electric Blast/Super Reflexes Sentinel

Ramayael - Titan Weapons/Bio Scrapper

C'len - Spines/Bio Brute

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Posted (edited)

Since I had the tool open still, I figured I do one more plot. Same scenario, but having 47.5% defense with 50% DDR. This would allow you to carry one debuff while remaining at softcap. Again, 5% to-hit debuff for 10s duration using a mob of +3 LTs averaging 2 attacks per second. Notice how big of a different that extra 2.5% defense provided in this scenario, averaging out to about 38% defense over time.

 

image.thumb.png.57b507f3731f9e30fb6e6aafd767d468.png

Edited by Bopper
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2 hours ago, marcussmythe said:

The thing with the Invuln/Rad comparison, and why people can simultaneously say 'Invuln is too strong' and 'Invuln is not that strong'.. and BOTH BE RIGHT.. is that the two sets respond very differently to different levels of investment.

I don't really agree with your analysis for two reasons.

 

Let's look at the basics for Invulnerability:

20% Defense S/L/F/C/E/N

45% S/L Resist

20% F/C/E/N/T Resist

140% Regeneration

140% Max HP

125% EndRec

50% DDR

25% End/Rec Resist

20% Rech/Slow Resist

 

Contrast with Radiation:

0% Defense (some -hit, but we'll ignore that for right now)

30% S/L Resist

35% F/N Resist

50% Toxic Resist

15% Psi Resist

7.5% Cold Resist

272% Regeneration

100% Max HP

175% End Rec

86.5% End/Rec Resist

45.4% Rech/Slow Resist

 

You'll notice that Radiation has significantly better resists than Invulnerability everywhere except S/L (which is easily hard-capped with Toughness) and Cold (which isn't very important). Even with better Max HP, Invulnerability has lower Regeneration - and that's not even accounting for the massive healing advantage Radiation possesses. Radiation can virtually ignore End/Rec debuffs and has double the protection for Rech/Slow debuffs. So Invulnerability is pretty far behind in every respect except Defense/DDR. But that's not a particularly big deal since the bulk of defense debuffs are melee - and there are secondaries that can (as I pointed out) put your Melee Defense so far off the charts that you're effectively immune to Defense Debuff.

 

Radiation just has a much stronger baseline than Invulnerability does for raw survival - and that's on top of recharge bonuses, damage abilities, better endurance management and a no-crash T9 power.

 

In terms of Super Reflexes, the main issue is that it's nearly impervious to harm... until it's not. There are some encounters where Super Reflexes just catastrophically fails and there isn't a whole lot you can do about it.

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4 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

I don't really agree with your analysis for two reasons.

 

Let's look at the basics for Invulnerability:

20% Defense S/L/F/C/E/N

45% S/L Resist

20% F/C/E/N/T Resist

140% Regeneration

140% Max HP

125% EndRec

50% DDR

25% End/Rec Resist

20% Rech/Slow Resist

 

Contrast with Radiation:

0% Defense (some -hit, but we'll ignore that for right now)

30% S/L Resist

35% F/N Resist

50% Toxic Resist

15% Psi Resist

7.5% Cold Resist

272% Regeneration

100% Max HP

175% End Rec

86.5% End/Rec Resist

45.4% Rech/Slow Resist

 

You'll notice that Radiation has significantly better resists than Invulnerability everywhere except S/L (which is easily hard-capped with Toughness) and Cold (which isn't very important). Even with better Max HP, Invulnerability has lower Regeneration - and that's not even accounting for the massive healing advantage Radiation possesses. Radiation can virtually ignore End/Rec debuffs and has double the protection for Rech/Slow debuffs. So Invulnerability is pretty far behind in every respect except Defense/DDR. But that's not a particularly big deal since the bulk of defense debuffs are melee - and there are secondaries that can (as I pointed out) put your Melee Defense so far off the charts that you're effectively immune to Defense Debuff.

 

Radiation just has a much stronger baseline than Invulnerability does for raw survival - and that's on top of recharge bonuses, damage abilities, better endurance management and a no-crash T9 power.

 

In terms of Super Reflexes, the main issue is that it's nearly impervious to harm... until it's not. There are some encounters where Super Reflexes just catastrophically fails and there isn't a whole lot you can do about it.

No, just no. 

 

I don't have time to pick this apart right now, but someone please go ahead and do it, starting with explaining to him how Invincibility works.  

 

Also, stop pointing to secondaries with defense bonuses.  If those secondaries help Rad, they help any primary and you're not comparing apples to apples.  

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Shield and SR have high DDR 90%+.

 

Shield is also very strong and can attain high resists on a Tanker with a couple of ATO procs.  Most content is very easy with it.

 

Knock them down or kill them fast etc helps a lot also.

 

I am not convinced Bio is number one. The defences can be stripped easily and the resists are not enough. It has heals but they can be overwhelmed. I would rather just take a lot less damage and rely on heals a lot less.

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Def Debuffs simply do not affect SR tankers 

 

There is no way you will get hit enough times to have a cascade failure when you are floating at over 60% Def and 99% DDR

 

What interested me about SR/SS was getting 65% def all the time so I could ignore Rage crashes and run Double Rage as much as possible.  But I lost interest before finishing the build.  

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Haijinx said:

The fact that the fighting pool is optional makes invul a little OP for tankers in the final stages.

 

Makes it amazing for Brutes, Scrappers and numbers wise Stalkers (never tried the last one.)

 

Unless you have some build in mind where you need all those powers I guess.   I never have enough slots for swiss army knife builds myself.

 

 Calling it weak though seems odd.  Invul is very strong.  


#ThasWhatI'mSayin!


If you want to be godlike, pick anything.

If you want to be GOD, pick a TANK!

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31 minutes ago, Gobbledegook said:

Shield and SR have high DDR 90%+.

 

Shield is also very strong and can attain high resists on a Tanker with a couple of ATO procs.  Most content is very easy with it.

 

Knock them down or kill them fast etc helps a lot also.

 

I am not convinced Bio is number one. The defences can be stripped easily and the resists are not enough. It has heals but they can be overwhelmed. I would rather just take a lot less damage and rely on heals a lot less.

When Bio is spoken of as #1, its for overall capability - damage, debuff, defense, resist, massive regen, absorb... it pays for this by being more fragile than some sets, and by being cataclysmically vulnerable to energy based -DEF and -RES.  For pure survival, other sets are definitely better.

 

That said, in deep vet levels with all the accolades and an incarnate and build for every situation, Bio can certainly be tough -enough-.

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Great Justice - Invuln/Energy Melee Tank

Ann Atomic - Radiation/Super Strength Tank

Elecutrix - Electric Blast/Super Reflexes Sentinel

Ramayael - Titan Weapons/Bio Scrapper

C'len - Spines/Bio Brute

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57 minutes ago, Hjarki said:

I don't really agree with your analysis for two reasons.

 

Let's look at the basics for Invulnerability:

20% Defense S/L/F/C/E/N

45% S/L Resist

20% F/C/E/N/T Resist

140% Regeneration

140% Max HP

125% EndRec

50% DDR

25% End/Rec Resist

20% Rech/Slow Resist

 

Contrast with Radiation:

0% Defense (some -hit, but we'll ignore that for right now)

30% S/L Resist

35% F/N Resist

50% Toxic Resist

15% Psi Resist

7.5% Cold Resist

272% Regeneration

100% Max HP

175% End Rec

86.5% End/Rec Resist

45.4% Rech/Slow Resist

 

You'll notice that Radiation has significantly better resists than Invulnerability everywhere except S/L (which is easily hard-capped with Toughness) and Cold (which isn't very important). Even with better Max HP, Invulnerability has lower Regeneration - and that's not even accounting for the massive healing advantage Radiation possesses. Radiation can virtually ignore End/Rec debuffs and has double the protection for Rech/Slow debuffs. So Invulnerability is pretty far behind in every respect except Defense/DDR. But that's not a particularly big deal since the bulk of defense debuffs are melee - and there are secondaries that can (as I pointed out) put your Melee Defense so far off the charts that you're effectively immune to Defense Debuff.

 

Radiation just has a much stronger baseline than Invulnerability does for raw survival - and that's on top of recharge bonuses, damage abilities, better endurance management and a no-crash T9 power.

 

In terms of Super Reflexes, the main issue is that it's nearly impervious to harm... until it's not. There are some encounters where Super Reflexes just catastrophically fails and there isn't a whole lot you can do about it.

Im not going to bother to try to dissuade you, but as someone who mains both sets at 50, my experience does not match what you describe.  


That said, if you want to go ask the dev team to buff Invuln, be my guest.

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Great Justice - Invuln/Energy Melee Tank

Ann Atomic - Radiation/Super Strength Tank

Elecutrix - Electric Blast/Super Reflexes Sentinel

Ramayael - Titan Weapons/Bio Scrapper

C'len - Spines/Bio Brute

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