Natural Origin isn't just for sword/SR scrappers

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

2 minutes ago, DoctorDitko said:

Oh. Teen sidekicks. Never mind.

 

Scrappy-Doo? That's just wrong. There is a hard limit of one talking dog per show. Even Shaggy is pushing it.

Oh you thought they kept them as young adults, no they turned them into annoying little kids. And snarf into basically one of those too smart, but doesnt talk even though it apparently is as self aware as a human kinda animal side kicks.

 

People often forget when they went into the pods, Liono was the same age as the cubs, and in fact in the comics, the girl actually was basically his betrothed if I recall right. And was why Liono often had moments of immaturity and childlike wonder and innocence, despite being in the body of an adult with an artificially enhanced education, both via the pod and his regular training and meditation with the sword of omens.

 

Damn I wish we could get a quality serious version of the cats based on the comics, which frankly tended to be more gritty and TV -MA 14+ in their plots. Hell who am I kidding, some of the later comics would rival game of thrones, spartacus, and black sails all put together for over the top mature content. Like I dont even want to tell you what happened to cheetarah after she was capture by space slavers, it was bad, real real bad. For the slavers I mean.                                                     

 

 

[Nafsmar]

On 7/29/2020 at 10:35 PM, Haijinx said:

 

 

 

Also as you mentioned and the great Tony Iommi and Dio told us in Heaven and Hell .. The Moon is just the Sun at night .. Therefore maybe Supes is like a Battery he has to store it all from the daytime.    

 

The only thing I needed to learn from this thread is that @Haijinx has, like myself, great taste in music. RIP DIO. 

Edited August 1, 2020 by Nafsmar
Fixing some poor grammar choices.

[Silverado]

On 7/28/2020 at 7:15 PM, Techwright said:

(And don't get me started on what Marvel's Inhumans would be: born with an alien gene which was forced into the gene pool at some distant past, but requiring an alchemical process to activate.  Hmm...)

Inhumans are clear cut science origin.

[DoctorDitko]

2 hours ago, Silverado said:

Inhumans are clear cut science origin.

I'll agree with you in the sense that they are the stand-out worst of all possible choices in their universe.

 

"Ooooh, crappy Inherent and I get to spend my first ten levels fighting Vahzilok? Sign me up!" -- said no PC more than once.

[Luminara]

On 7/30/2020 at 5:46 PM, Haijinx said:

My Issue isn't with the Powers  ... Its with the Power.  The Sun's energy is too dispersed.  Given the feats he performs that we are shown, he would run out of Energy far faster than he could recover it.  Lifting a Tank, Killing people with Laser Beam Eyes and so on should be fairly Energy Intensive.

 

Some of what he's doing isn't as taxing as it appears, if we take his physiology into account.  That tank might weigh a few dozen tons, but it weighs a tenth as much to him because he's a heavy-worlder.  Still needs more than sheer muscle to lift it, but not as much muscle as a human would require.  His pew-pew eye lasers aren't really drawing power from him, they're refocusing incoming IR via a mechanism similar to the tapetum lucidum in various species of animals.

 

But, you're right.  Even if that tank "only" weighs a few tons for him, comparatively, it's still too heavy to lift.  There has to be something enabling his special abilities.  It can't be photosynthesis and complex hydrocarbon chains (sugars and starches).  So where does that extra oomph come from, and what does he do with the sunshine his body accumulates?

 

In many species of animals, small clusters of magnetic particles are embedded in specific cellular structures (the human nose, for example).  Seemingly unrelated, there are elements which react with sunlight in various ways (photoelectric effect is relevant to this discussion).  If we reach a little and assume that kryptonite is a yet-to-be-discovered radioactive element, we can also assume that various "colors" of kryptonite are, in fact, isotopes.  One of those isotopes, blue kryptonite, is depicted as providing Superman with significant benefits (makes him stronger, for example).  Putting those together, what if Superman's extraordinary capabilities were the result of blue kryptonite particles in his musculature and nervous system, reacting with sunlight, massively enhancing his native strength (resulting from his heavy-worlder anatomy) and granting him other, more peculiar abilities, such as partial gravitic inversion (flight)?

 

Of course, that still doesn't solve the power storage problem.  Nor can I hypothesize a reasonable, scientifically acceptable means of such.  This is where the comics depart from reality completely... unless kryptonite also has the capability to store energy like elements used in batteries (cadmium, lithium, etc.), but if that were the case, it would be incredibly unstable, prone to explosive release and couldn't exist in nature in more than trace amounts (and those fist-sized pieces depicted in the comics would blow up, Tsar Bomba style, on exposure to sunlight).  It also doesn't explain how Superman can be unharmed by radioactive decay, a process which we know to be hazardous, in all forms, to everything.  If anyone had nodules of radioactive material in their bodies, they'd be tumors with legs, presuming they lived for more than a few weeks after birth.

 

That's the real conundrum.  If we can resolve the energy storage issue, we can explain Superman.  I can't.  Everything else, I can see being workable within the laws of physics, but not the energy storage.  Or, not the energy storage without every form of cancer imaginable, and a tendency to explode.

[DoctorDitko]

I remember Marvel did a Superman Expy and tried to rationalize his powers. (I think he was Kree? Gladiator or some such? With the big black mohawk haircut.)

 

Anyway, their take was that all his powers are really Telekinesis. TK force fields for toughness, TK to pick up a building by one corner brick, TK flight. I liked it, but not sure it covers everything.

 

Still, the Alan Moore-esque out-of-the-box noodling was cool. (His job on Marvelman Miracleman was inspired! [But, IMNSHO, nothing beats his run on Supreme!]) And of course, his 2-issue farewell to the Silver Age Superman is required reading for all superhero scholars.

 

I'm sorry, what was the question again?

Edited August 1, 2020 by DoctorDitko

[Techwright]

1 hour ago, DoctorDitko said:

I remember Marvel did a Superman Expy and tried to rationalize his powers. (I think he was Kree? Gladiator or some such? With the big black mohawk haircut.)

 

Gladiator?  He's Shi'ar Imperial Guard by political alignment, though not Shi'ar by species.  He's also known as Kallark.

 

 

 

[Techwright]

double post

Edited August 2, 2020 by Techwright
double post

[DoctorDitko]

Ah, Shi'ar! That's the Huckleberry!

Very cool links, thanks. Good read!

 

From what I see, they went out of their way to get closer to Superman as he evolved.

Didn't mention his power rationale, though. Did they keep the "it's all TK" explanation?

[Chance Jackson]

5 hours ago, DoctorDitko said:

I'll agree with you in the sense that they are the stand-out worst of all possible choices in their universe.

 

"Ooooh, crappy Inherent and I get to spend my first ten levels fighting Vahzilok? Sign me up!" -- said no PC more than once.

juat skip the vahz giving science contact, all of the other 1st of origin contacts are unlocked now

[Sovera]

Superman has been hinted at his power being psychic a few times now. Further more in the way he has a tiny surface area, but can lift a whole boat complete with passengers and it does not crumple in half when all its weight is centered in a tiny hand sized surface. Super-boy and his tactile TK plays into that. Supes even mentions how flying makes things less heavy to carry.

 

Just like his invulnerability is not merely dense muscle but a result from a 'bio-electric field'.

 

Things have been moved and retconned a few (several) times over the years so I don't know if they kept this or just swept it under the rug.

 

Edit: Seems not https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Superman_(Clark_Kent)

Edited August 2, 2020 by Sovera

[ShardWarrior]

On 8/1/2020 at 12:39 AM, Bentley Berkeley said:

No the idea behind superman is he would certainly not have anything resembling indigestion or being gassy. There is actually a great moment in smallville were clark has to state it clearly to old johnny K when he is once again telling Clark to be careful. He says something along the lines of " Dad you cant understand, I never have accidents, I never stumble, I never slip, I never blink or sneeze and lose my focus for even a moment, only when there is kryptonite, or someone is using some kind of ability, and thats why I know that it wasnt some accident, because I dont have accidents"

 

Its important to always keep in mind superman as originally imagined and in the hands of the better writers is indeed truly perfect, and it is how he uses that perfect to inspire, rather than abuse it to terrorize that truly makes him a Superman.

Someone can use magic sneezing powder on him.  I am sure someone can feed him a magic bowl of beans too.

 

 

 

[Myrmidon]

On 7/29/2020 at 12:54 AM, Heraclea said:

No: any character whose attacks involve a sword, a mace, a staff, a bow, or a gun is Technology origin.  All of them are using tools. and tools are technology. 

What about if you have found a shard of Gram and it becomes the source of your powers, along with granting a mystic sword in your transformation?

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

2 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

Someone can use magic sneezing powder on him.  I am sure someone can feed him a magic bowl of beans too.

 

 

 

Magic is well known to be one of the most reliable ways to bypass supermans natural perfection. However in none of the examples is superman suffering an accidental anything, he is being attacked and suffering the effect of the attack.

 

And the above is the case of a writer giving him less ability then some others. I can recall a superman comic where gas infused with kryptonite does not effect him because his body can filter out the K particles, and he spat them out in a truly green wad of phlegm. This suggest his bodies biology also possesses decidedly superior bio-mechanical defense systems to deal with toxic elements in the air, allergies from pollen. While some writers tend to treat superman and his power as basically being magical sun stuff, some do still recall that at his root, its suppose to be about his origin and inherent biology, and not just some new environmental factor.

[ShardWarrior]

3 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Magic is well known to be one of the most reliable ways to bypass supermans natural perfection. However in none of the examples is superman suffering an accidental anything, he is being attacked and suffering the effect of the attack.

Yes he is, which means it could happen due to "magical" means.

[Haijinx]

2 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

What about if you have found a shard of Gram and it becomes the source of your powers, along with granting a mystic sword in your transformation?

I recommend consoling. 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

On 7/30/2020 at 9:29 AM, CaptainLupis said:

Superman is just lucky he didn't crash land in Scotland, or he'd never have discovered he had any powers.

While his origin story has been retold many times to the point of take your pick, a fair few have shown his powers had already begun to manifest in the pod, some due to him getting nearer to our sun, others because he wasnt some super infant still but had actually been in the pod several years and growing the entire time, more a womb then a cryo pod or the like. He was learning the whole time as well which is why in maybe the most beloved film depiction, that of the chris reeves superman, he is a toddler who can lift a truck, and is aware of enough to understand he can do so.

[Haijinx]

On 8/2/2020 at 3:12 AM, Sovera said:

Superman has been hinted at his power being psychic a few times now. Further more in the way he has a tiny surface area, but can lift a whole boat complete with passengers and it does not crumple in half when all its weight is centered in a tiny hand sized surface. Super-boy and his tactile TK plays into that. Supes even mentions how flying makes things less heavy to carry.

 

Just like his invulnerability is not merely dense muscle but a result from a 'bio-electric field'.

 

Things have been moved and retconned a few (several) times over the years so I don't know if they kept this or just swept it under the rug.

 

Edit: Seems not https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Superman_(Clark_Kent)

The Psychic thing is kind of beside the point. 

 

Unless mind powers do not require Energy? 

 

Same goes for Denser Muscles.  They still require the same amount of Energy to do work.  

 

The Basic equations for Work perform for lifting a Tank 10 feet in the air are the same whether a forklift does it or A Super Powered Mouse.  Even if the latter saves the day.  

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

While his origin story has been retold many times to the point of take your pick, a fair few have shown his powers had already begun to manifest in the pod, some due to him getting nearer to our sun, others because he wasnt some super infant still but had actually been in the pod several years and growing the entire time, more a womb then a cryo pod or the like. He was learning the whole time as well which is why in maybe the most beloved film depiction, that of the chris reeves superman, he is a toddler who can lift a truck, and is aware of enough to understand he can do so.

Super-Verses FTL speeds tend to move at the speed of the plot.   

 

Most Sci-Fi verses also.

 

Superman takes years to travel from Krypton to Earth in an FTL spacecraft.  Green Lantern can fly to Krypton using a ring he more or less found in a  crackerjack box during a commercial. 

 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

1 minute ago, ShardWarrior said:

Yes he is, which means it could happen due to "magical" means.

if you trip me I did not accidentally stumble and fall. If you throw something in my face like pepper, I did not have a natural sneeze as a reaction to something naturally in the environment, rather a weaponized substance added to impact me.

 

For example my earlier reference to a discussion between clark and john kent was from the smallville series, in which clark is on the football team and injures a player after apparently having an accident on the field and slamming into the other guy too hard.

 

Clark knows something has happened, that he has been attacked in some way, because he does not have natural events like that. When he points this out to his father, its his mother who reminds John that clark is right, he never has accidents of any kind. after all it takes supreme awareness and control for him to exert any force and not destroy it.

 

I mean hell the above panel your using involves a being from another dimension if I recall right. Thats about as foreign and invasive as anything.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

Just now, Haijinx said:

Super-Verses FTL speeds tend to move at the speed of the plot.   

 

Most Sci-Fi verses also.

 

Superman takes years to travel from Krypton to Earth in an FTL spacecraft.  Green Lantern can fly to Krypton using a ring he more or less found in a  crackerjack box during a commercial. 

 

Uhm its well known the lantern rings can create wormholes, just saying.

[Haijinx]

2 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Uhm its well known the lantern rings can create wormholes, just saying.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

9 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

The Psychic thing is kind of beside the point. 

 

Unless mind powers do not require Energy? 

 

Same goes for Denser Muscles.  They still require the same amount of Energy to do work.  

 

The Basic equations for Work perform for lifting a Tank 10 feet in the air are the same whether a forklift does it or A Super Powered Mouse.  Even if the latter saves the day.  

I think you may be missing the crazy sci fi idea Im trying to explain. Know how we split atoms to make big boom booms? that we understand though crudely that in a single atom, enormous amounts of energy reside, that so called physical objects are actually mostly empty space, etc etc.

 

Well one idea put forth is beings like Superman who seem to possess ability, energy etc beyond the physical limits, do so by being able to store and release energy in a way like nothing we know of that actually exist. They basically able to tap into atomic energy without splitting atoms. That was basically the original idea for Cyclops optic blast, a literal supernova in  his eyes, fueled by his own biology drawing power his own atomic structure.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

4 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I cant even see a thing in that mass of yellow, however Ive seen more then once in GL comics the ring opening up a wormhole as part of an emergency flair like beacon effect to summon other lanterns in an emergency, I believe it was described as draining a rings energy tremendously to do so. I also seem to recall Hal using one to transport the JL inside a force bubble to meet with the lantern corp.

 

I mean yeah travel times in space are always wonky in sci fi shows. Until we really do have some ftl/wormhole type means in RL, the different scifi ideas will continue to create the wide and varied ideas on how it may be done.

[Haijinx]

Just now, Bentley Berkeley said:

I think you may be missing the crazy sci fi idea Im trying to explain. Know how we split atoms to make big boom booms? that we understand though crudely that in a single atom, enormous amounts of energy reside, that so called physical objects are actually mostly empty space, etc etc.

This is why I suggested if Superman's handwaving source of Energy had come along a few decades later than it had .. instead of Solar they probably would have gone with something like "Zero Point Energy"  

 

At least picking some source where supposedly there is enough Energy available there.  Where Solar there is not, not even in the abstract.