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Have the Hostage NPCs hum/scream/yell like a glowie would


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There's a mission in Tina Mac's arc, where you have to rescue Dr. ...Todd? Calvin? ...Anyway, I just make a target macro: /macro FIND targetcustomnext Dr. Calvin

Then, as I stealth-speed around the map, I tap the macro button..doesn't take long. I right click and edit the same macro to target Chasers in LRSF, Demolitions in Underground Trial, Sorcerers when I'm hunting for them in Talos, and many other npcs. 

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Wouldn't hurt for them to have some lines, so you know you're close, kind of like some villains run their mouth when you get close.

 

As for that tired argument that "this game is already too easy", stuff it - no one likes hunting for  20-30 mins for that last hostage stuck in some obscure corner.

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If dialog wouldn't fire off early, it'd be nice - there are instances where the hostage *does* have dialog, but you have no idea where it's coming from.

 

And, frankly, there's precedent - after all, the last glowies (in theory) are supposed to show up on the map. They don't, always, but it does make the game less frustrating. Having this happen when there's one hostage left you're searching for would not be new and it wouldn't hurt.

 

This is not a matter of "making the game too easy," but making it less *frustrating.* I'm sure we've all gone through multi level maps multiple times just to find the last hostage tucked behind a hard to see stairwell. This isn't fun, this isn't proof of how l337 you are, it's an annoyance. It's not a question of game knowledge or mechanics, and there's no skill to learn. This is simply "did something spawn in a really annoying, hard to find area."

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Primarily on Everlasting. Squid afficionado. Former creator of Copypastas. General smartalec.

 

I tried to combine Circle and DE, but all I got were garden variety evil mages.

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Yes please.

 

15 hours ago, Ukase said:

There's a mission in Tina Mac's arc, where you have to rescue Dr. ...Todd? Calvin? ...Anyway, I just make a target macro: /macro FIND targetcustomnext Dr. Calvin

Then, as I stealth-speed around the map, I tap the macro button..doesn't take long. I right click and edit the same macro to target Chasers in LRSF, Demolitions in Underground Trial, Sorcerers when I'm hunting for them in Talos, and many other npcs. 

Spent 10 minutes with friend roaming the map looking for the guy. Even spamming a macro with his name didn't help. We ended killing the whole map clean of NPCs (fortunately we had it at -1 to speed it up since it was for the accolade) and we -finally- found the guy hiding in a corner of the map that somehow protected him from being noticed by the macro.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes. I am sure this is the sort of riveting gameplay that makes the game fun for the naysayers above.

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1 hour ago, Greycat said:

This is not a matter of "making the game too easy," but making it less *frustrating.*

Yeah this is it. Annoying isn't the same as challenging. I'm firmly in the 'there are balance issues at the high end' camp but not being able to find hostages is not some game balancing factor, it's simply tedious.

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On 8/8/2020 at 1:28 PM, SwitchFade said:

The game is already easy as is, no more making the he more brainless to play.

Damn, we better scrap AE then. Right? Right?

 

Kidding aside..why not make this change? Running around that huge KR map in Tina's arc, trying to find the ONE hostage is not fun in any shape or form.

 

I also just saw the reply above, talking about the exact same mission. Wouldnt any macro be 'making the game easier?' Why then CAN we use macros? A mission shouldnt be making you think about the need for a macro, just to make it less annoying. If it does..that is bad design.

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13 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

Damn, we better scrap AE then. Right? Right?

 

Kidding aside..why not make this change? Running around that huge KR map in Tina's arc, trying to find the ONE hostage is not fun in any shape or form.

 

I also just saw the reply above, talking about the exact same mission. Wouldnt any macro be 'making the game easier?' Why then CAN we use macros? A mission shouldnt be making you think about the need for a macro, just to make it less annoying. If it does..that is bad design.

Different strokes...

 

Not everyone thinks that it is annoying. Some people enjoy exploring. Not everyone enjoys zerging.

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16 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Not everyone thinks that it is annoying. Some people enjoy exploring. Not everyone enjoys zerging.

While true, there are a couple of maps that are quite annoying when it comes to finding the hostages.  There is one in Crimson's arc finding a Russian Ambassador and one in the old Praetorian arc to rescue hostages from those Shadow things that can be truly aggravating. 

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5 hours ago, Patti said:

But giving people options for easier gameplay doesn't take any of that away.

Ah, the slippery slope of "playing my way." Sure, but does such a change impact others? For example, some think that the basecode exploit should be left as is, because "options to play my way." However, there's many negative impacts such as people who won't wait to enter and start missions, who leave the team because they expect morefasterbetter. It even causes people to use it for fear of being left behind, get disenchanted and perhaps play much less, because the state of the game has become less immersive.

 

The same can be said for this. If I join a PuG where this is on for some, zerging is further exacerbated. If this becomes an expectation from some, or even a large minority, how would that effect things? How would it leave people behind? Would it cause people to rush more? What would happen to culture and immersion?

 

Making changes that seem "convenience" focused can have a much more detrimental impact than initially anticipated. While it may seem innocuous, the impact could very well be far reaching.

 

No thanks.

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2 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Making changes that seem "convenience" focused can have a much more detrimental impact than initially anticipated. While it may seem innocuous, the impact could very well be far reaching.

 

No thanks.

You say you like "exploring" in the reply to Patti.

 

This change does not keep you from exploring. It DOES, however, mean you don't have to go over the same part of the (potentially very large) map five, six, ten times trying to find ONE NPC tucked in a corner behind a door under a potted plant.

 

I *highly* doubt you find that "enjoyable."

 

This is not an "explorer versus rusher" issue. If anything, this would provide some consistency, as glowies *already do this.* Do you consider that ruining your "exploring?" Do you call the people who listen for glowies "brainless" as you did in your first post in here?

 

Frankly, what you're trying to use as a counterargument doesn't give you a leg to stand on, given it's an already existing system in the game for an identical purpose.

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Primarily on Everlasting. Squid afficionado. Former creator of Copypastas. General smartalec.

 

I tried to combine Circle and DE, but all I got were garden variety evil mages.

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On 8/7/2020 at 9:42 PM, Ukase said:

There's a mission in Tina Mac's arc, where you have to rescue Dr. ...Todd? Calvin? ...Anyway, I just make a target macro: /macro FIND targetcustomnext Dr. Calvin

I do that normally, but there's a lot of hostage rescues where you don't know the person's name and they can't be targeted as a friendly.

For instance recently someone called for help in /LFG finding their last hostage from a Carnie arc. I have a standard bind to find non-enemies. He'd been hunting around the map for 30 minutes before asking for help. Another hero and I joined, and we flew around the map looking for the hostage, finally deciding to just start clearing around the Carnie tents and surrounding roads. Eventually we came across 3 Carnies standing by a fence post and after we defeated them the hostage popped out and ran away.

Hostage had some random name we wouldn't have known to make a bind for.

 

Would have been nice if some NPC dialog bubble popped up "Help they are kidnapping me!"

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8 minutes ago, Greycat said:

You say you like "exploring" in the reply to Patti.

 

This change does not keep you from exploring. It DOES, however, mean you don't have to go over the same part of the (potentially very large) map five, six, ten times trying to find ONE NPC tucked in a corner behind a door under a potted plant.

 

I *highly* doubt you find that "enjoyable."

 

This is not an "explorer versus rusher" issue. If anything, this would provide some consistency, as glowies *already do this.* Do you consider that ruining your "exploring?" Do you call the people who listen for glowies "brainless" as you did in your first post in here?

 

Frankly, what you're trying to use as a counterargument doesn't give you a leg to stand on, given it's an already existing system in the game for an identical purpose.

Well, well.

 

Notice I didn't call ANYONE brainless. I did say, no thanks to making the GAME more brainless. At NO time did I say I like exploring in my reply to Patti, I did post that some people like exploring in a different post.

 

Thanks for being Frank. I'll do my best to be as clear as possible in return and only ask that you not misquote or assign things to me I did not say.

 

Generally, I find your contribution and participation in the forums a bright spot and very important; because of this, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you had no intention of being brusque, although it seems that was the intent.

 

Your perception that this issue is such a severe annoyance is valid and duly noted. My perception that it is not, is similarly valid. My argument is equally valid, as I stated that changes can have much more significant impact than initially anticipated. Coupled with the fact that the issue at hand is a minor one, the net benefit isn't justifiable, in the face of the potential fallout.

 

Hence the, "no thanks."

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21 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

However, there's many negative impacts such as people who won't wait to enter and start missions, who leave the team because they expect morefasterbetter. It even causes people to use it for fear of being left behind, get disenchanted and perhaps play much less, because the state of the game has become less immersive.

I'm for the eventual removal of the enterbase command, but indifferent to this suggestion. These are just non-analogous instances that can't really be compared. 

 

27 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

The same can be said for this. If I join a PuG where this is on for some, zerging is further exacerbated. If this becomes an expectation from some, or even a large minority, how would that effect things? How would it leave people behind? Would it cause people to rush more? What would happen to culture and immersion?

This one is a bit of a slippery slope fallacy. You don't have any evidence that adding a mechanism that already exists to a different thing in a almost identical mission will suddenly erode the games culture or immersion. That isn't the case with glowies now. Why would it happen here? I can also tell you there are already speed runs of missions where people don't give a hoot for the story or immersion, and it has little to do with the fact that there are objectives that make noises. 

 

When I make a team, I say "speeding through some missions" or "playing through the story of...". It's easy to specify what your doing if immersion is your goal, and the story/whatever route is almost never even slower than a normal "kill errything" route. Get the objective and go runs are what are speedy, and already exist. There's no harm in them. Just don't do them.

 

If anything, having the trapped/scared/antagonized victim making audible sounds is immersive, and random objects exuding audible radiation or whatever it is isn't, but that's just a nitpick.

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In personal synopsis, there is no fallout, and there is no harm. There might even be a benefit in certain maps, but I wouldn't know since I usually play with sound off besides music fx or during mothership raids. 

 

No complaints from me, though I wouldn't call it priority myself. Or even necessary.

Edited by Monos King
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The way the comment reads rather implies a judgement on the players, which is why I found it rather irksome. If that was not the intent, I apologize.

 

And as I mentioned earlier, this does not end exploring. Hell, I tend to go after nooks and crannies. As I said, it's an already existing mechanic.

 

So, let's look at early missions.  The Hollows.

Last Wincott missions: get artifacts, get weapons from Outcasts. One has three glowies, one has five or six. You search, you get close, you hear them, fight whatever's close, click, done.

 

Followed shortly by Flux. Second, third mission? Rescue officers from Trolls. Find 5 officers. Fight what's around them, done. (No escort, etc.)  Free them, done. Pain to find sometimes, makes no noise.

 

Explain to me, please. What's the difference between the two that's making one acceptable and one a threat for "significant impact?"

 

Edit:

To be clear, no this shouldn't be added to something where you have to fight someone. Having, say, Maelstrom start going "woo woo woo" when you have to find him in - I think it's a morality mission - would be silly, as would having ambushes do it. But when you're essentially treating the NPC as an object to find with no real other interaction, they're not hunting you, etc? It's a minor expansion on an existing mechanic.

 

'nother edit:

As far as expanding, I should also point out we've gone from glowies making noise to adding a mechanic to (in theory) having the last one(s) show up visually on the map - when that works - years ago. As well as (in theory) the last enemy NPCs, though patrols can also make this wonky.

Edited by Greycat
COmpeltely rewording to try to make the point...

Primarily on Everlasting. Squid afficionado. Former creator of Copypastas. General smartalec.

 

I tried to combine Circle and DE, but all I got were garden variety evil mages.

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32 minutes ago, ninja surprise said:

I do that normally, but there's a lot of hostage rescues where you don't know the person's name and they can't be targeted as a friendly.

For instance recently someone called for help in /LFG finding their last hostage from a Carnie arc. I have a standard bind to find non-enemies. He'd been hunting around the map for 30 minutes before asking for help. Another hero and I joined, and we flew around the map looking for the hostage, finally deciding to just start clearing around the Carnie tents and surrounding roads. Eventually we came across 3 Carnies standing by a fence post and after we defeated them the hostage popped out and ran away.

Hostage had some random name we wouldn't have known to make a bind for.

 

Would have been nice if some NPC dialog bubble popped up "Help they are kidnapping me!"

Here's what I would call a pro-tip: 

When you have one of these missions, refer to the paragon wiki, er...rather the HC paragon wiki. I think it was simply ported over with folks making changes as we play where things differ. 

You look for the contact in the wiki, and generally, it provides you with all the dialogue between the contact and the player, and the dialogue within the mission, and tends to give the names of special npcs. 
One of the rwz contacts gives a mission where this would apply - had to rescue a few folks, and destroy some ritki bombs, but I had no idea who to rescue or where they were. The wiki stated who the npcs were. Since then, I've learned that it's very rare that the wiki doesn't share that info. It's worth a few seconds to do a quick search for the contact and look things up. 

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2 hours ago, Ukase said:

You look for the contact in the wiki, and generally, it provides you with all the dialogue between the contact and the player, and the dialogue within the mission, and tends to give the names of special npcs. 

That hardly helps you find a ninja hostage on a huge map. Just having the name is little use at all, unless you also happen to know how to create a macro to search for him, and even then, it reduces you to running about spamming the 'find person' button.

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