Best Route through the Game for Natural Origin?

[Tath99]

Hi All.

 

A friend and I are considering a playthrough of the game as a duo of Natural Origin characters.  The playthrough will be an old-school SO only run.  IO sets will not be allowed.  It would be beneficial therefore, if our route through the contacts hit as many Natural origin enemy types as possible.

 

Does anyone have any advice upon?

 

-- Enemy types that drop Natural SO's?

-- Contacts & Story Arcs that hit said enemy types?

 

Typically, we play through Atlas / Hollows / Steel / Talos / Striga / Brickstown / Peregrine Island.

 

Any thoughts or suggestions on good story Natural origin Content & Contacts to investigate? (The characters will be a pair of Trick Arrow / Archery Defenders).

 

Thanks in advance.

 

-- Tath99

[Troo]

this may be what you're looking for:

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/ELITE

 

[FoulVileTerror]

Oof.  Tall order.

There are actually terrifyingly few Natural factions in the game.  

 

Longbow, though many Bosses are decidedly Mutant or Science.  Also, they don't come up often for Heroes to contend against.

Luddites, although there's a question of demonic influence now due to that one Cap au Diable arc, but there aren't any Blueside to begin with.

Spetznaz . . . again, Redside-only last I checked.

PPD . . . again, they're generally Redside content.

Dockworkers, Scrapyarders, RIP, Cage Consortium, and Private Security . . . I'm noticing a trend here.

Low-rank Crey, but they ramp up in to Technology pretty quick.

Low-rank Family, but the use of meta-enhancer drugs and implied mutations pervade the upper echelons.

Low-rank Warriors, but even then it's implied there are plenty of magical artefacts enhancing these guys right from their initiation.

 

What does that leave us?

Knives of Artemis, for sure, when you get there.  They're just exceptionally well-trained and using relatively mundane equipment.

 

 . . . Shivans?  Shivans, I suppose.  They're Natural for their alien origins, right?

 

 

[Tath99]

The Tsoo?  The Council?  5th Column? -- Are these Natural?

 

Thank you Troo for the link.  That will be most useful.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Tath99

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

I get the feeling what you mean when you say natural, is what I would call the mortal human builds. Hence the choice of keeping it to SOs as a form of self gimping which I totes give props for I do it myself in my own way on my batman homage.

 

If your desire is to face mainly humancentric types of foes, who use brawn and brains rather then meta power and magic that is actually a pretty rare breed of foe in the game. If its so they drop the types of SOs you need, you will find that many factions that really dont seem all that mere mortal drop those because natural in coh can as easily apply to a human, as to a god like alien whose powers are a natural part of its species.

 

I actually go red side to street hunt the human centric groups red side on my batman type toons pretty often. Just has the right vibe for it over there.

 

So Id suggest you make a couple red side, skip the tutorial zone to remove that break out from your story path. Use abit of AE as needed to fill things in, and just try to take the arcs that pit you against the factions you want to fight, and do rewrites of the clue story as it applies to your toon concept as needed. Because Paragon really is not the place for those who dont want to be when even the lowest street thugs can possess mighty magic, fly in the sky, and what not.

[FoulVileTerror]

Nope, nope, nope.  Sorry.  Genuinely sorry (I like Natural content too!).

Magic (in their tattoo ink) for Tsoo of all ranks.

Science (Super-Serums) for the other two factions at all ranks.  And it would be criminal of me to neglect mentioning the robots and grim experiments with Nictus resulting in Warwolves and Vampyri.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

1 minute ago, Tath99 said:

The Tsoo?  The Council?  5th Column? -- Are these Natural?

 

Thank you Troo for the link.  That will be most useful.

 

 

 

 

the tsoo would be more magical martial arts types rather then natural types for most of the mobs. Council are space nazi science types. The Fifth ruled by a wierd blend of mad science and dark magic as well. The Family has psychics among them, The warriors might be as close as you get to a 100% natural group cept maybe the dude empowered by the peebles ring and a few other odd bosses among their ranks.

 

Trolls while they are basically just humans, do have science meta upgrades from dyne, but I always love troll bashing on my batman type so you might enjoy them.

 

Id suggest go vig or rogue, and go where the content you want is as needed.

 

Actually a fair bit of Praetorian content feels pretty nat/sci/tech so you guys might enjoy that, and a Duo there is def a good way to enjoy that rarely played content that is often lacking in allies.

[Tath99]

Hmm.  The drops being Natural would have been a bonus.  

 

Bentley - You're right.  It is a desire to face Human-centric foes for the most part.  I doubt my duo partner or I will go redside.  So it is more a case of hitting the 'best-Humanoid' story arcs, perhaps?

 

Outcasts, Trolls, Council, Warriors, Rikti, Cimerorans are our usual fare.

 

Circle of Thorns (Hate the Ghosts), Clockwork are probably out.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Tath99

[Lines]

I don't think there is a villain group that hasn't dabbled around the origins. Even the Romans vicariously have a bit of science going on because of the Nictus.

 

But if your goal is to face gritty, real-world-facsimile, Gotham City style enemies rather than extradimensional or significantly metahuman threats, you're more in luck. Early on it'll be a matter of avoiding certain arcs rather than finding the right ones. It'll get tough after level 35-40 when the game's story begins to revolve around the dimensions.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Lines

[Grouchybeast]

35 minutes ago, Tath99 said:

Does anyone have any advice upon?

 

-- Enemy types that drop Natural SO's?

-- Contacts & Story Arcs that hit said enemy types?

I found this guide on Strategywiki about Enhancement drops by enemy type, but I have no idea how accurate it is, so please approach with caution.  Someone did update the page in May 2019, for what that's worth.

Edited August 8, 2020 by Grouchybeast

[Troo]

If @Tath99 had not specified AT, power sets, and blue side preference there would be more room for suggestions.

 

Elite is what this duo is looking for based on criteria:

Prior to Issue 21, most heroes of natural origin would begin their adventures in Paragon City by contacting ELITE, an organization that specializes in working with heroes of natural origin. Heroes of natural origin will have either Susan Davies in Atlas Park or Derek Amberson in Galaxy City as their initial contact, depending on which zone he or she selects as his or her beginning zone.

 

 

If they hadn't been specific, my go to suggestion for natural origin:

• Soldier of Arachnos and red side for more concentrated content.

'Natural' covers a wide swath of the game and obviously overlaps greatly. Example: Peacebringers are 'natural'.

 

@Grouchybeast that looks like great info on enemy groups that could drop the requested SOs.

Natural

• Drop Natural SOs and Natural/Technology DOs
• Arachnos, Cage Consortium Guards, Dockworkers, Family, Hellions, Knives of Artemis, Longbow, Luddites, Mooks, Paragon Police, Praetorians (Chimera, Tyrant), Prisoners, Rogue Island Police, Scrapyarders, Security Guards, Skulls, Warriors, Wyvern

Player's origin

• Drop enhancements that match the recipient's origin
• 5th Column, Axis America, Council Empire, Hearts of Darkness, Neo-Shivans, Pandora's Might, Rogue Paragon Police, Rulu-Shin, Shadow Shard Reflections, Shining Stars, Turrets, Vanguard Shield, Vanguard Sword, all arch-villains, all Praetorian zone enemies (except "Praetorians")

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by Troo

[Tath99]

Thank you for the great input so far.

 

Perhaps folks could suggest their favourite story arcs blue-side that work well with "street smart" heroes?

 

 

[MTeague]

Sky Raiders and Malta are probably more aligned to Tech in what they drop, but they're basically ordinary humans with fancy gear, and an occasional robot sidekick. 

• "The Mysterious General Z", listed 25-29, is a favorite of mine.
• "Ubelmann the Unknown", listed as 25-29, was also excellent.  An interesting ending, too.
• late game, "World Wide Red" (45-50),  It's long and very Malta heavy though, so depending on your AT/Powers that migth get rough. 

 

[Luminara]

3 hours ago, Tath99 said:

Natural Origin

 

3 hours ago, Tath99 said:

Trick Arrow / Archery

 

Before anything, speak to the P2W vendor, revoke the Throwing Knives origin attack and take either Apprentice Charm or Taser Dart.  Both of you.  If you don't, you'll have to use Blazing Arrow to ignite OSA.  That would deprive both of you of your best single-target attacks, and as TA/A characters, that's not a luxury you can afford, even for concept.

[Tath99]

1 minute ago, Luminara said:

 

 

Before anything, speak to the P2W vendor, revoke the Throwing Knives origin attack and take either Apprentice Charm or Taser Dart.  Both of you.  If you don't, you'll have to use Blazing Arrow to ignite OSA.  That would deprive both of you of your best single-target attacks, and as TA/A characters, that's not a luxury you can afford, even for concept.

Thank you for the great suggestion.  I do like Throwing Knives for its early attack potential.  I'll bear your excellent advice in mind once Oil Slick Arrow becomes available.

[Patti]

Isn't there another option without deviating from theme?   Like one of the vendor temp powers?

[Myrmidon]

I would suggest not using the Double XP option at all so that you slow progression some to keep the content level. Possible even turning off XP entirely at some points.

[Tath99]

1 minute ago, Myrmidon said:

I would suggest not using the Double XP option at all so that you slow progression some to keep the content level. Possible even turning off XP entirely at some points.

Me and my duo partner have negotiated a few challenge rules for the playthrough.  Not using XP Boosters and potentially turning off XP to enjoy the arcs are amongst them.  Good suggestion though!  We are on the same wavelength.  😉

 

 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

3 hours ago, Tath99 said:

Hmm.  The drops being Natural would have been a bonus.  

 

Bentley - You're right.  It is a desire to face Human-centric foes for the most part.  I doubt my duo partner or I will go redside.  So it is more a case of hitting the 'best-Humanoid' story arcs, perhaps?

 

Outcasts, Trolls, Council, Warriors, Rikti, Cimerorans are our usual fare.

 

Circle of Thorns (Hate the Ghosts), Clockwork are probably out.

 

 

First please call me Berk. Only me mum calls me Bentley;)

 

2nd Id really encourage you 2 to consider starting in praetoria. As a duo you will be pretty well off there, and virtually all the mobs are humancentric to varying degrees, even the ghouls are just feral humans basically who are mildly mutated. Id say the psy chicks are the most power using over there. Most are using weapons/tech. Also the arcs really are way better written then any early blue/red side content imo. It even gives a great bit for your origin, in a world were metas rule as living gods, you two without powers decide to use skill and will to challenge the tyrant!

 

It actually even makes more sense, as in Paragon, well while we have non meta heroes, they almost seem a joke compared to the armed and armored factions like longbow and vanguard, especially when using archaic weapons like a bow( manticore is the biggest joke of the hero side icons for that very reason) whereas in praetoria where most with powers will logically fall into line with Cole's system that puts them at the top of society, its those without power who are going to be the logical foundation of any rebellion and uprising.

 

Also consider this, in coh lore magic comes mainly from ancient bloodlines dating back to Mu. So tossing out throwing knife for the magic origin power can be a way of hinting at that bloodline, and you could then expand it with a epic pool like mu mastery down the line if so inclined, that would help make a logical transition to incarnate powers and helping against foes that are just impractical from a logic pov for mere mortals with sticks being launched by strings.

 

Also bow, especially with the arrow powers it uses is really more a tech origin power set imo.

[Tath99]

4 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

First please call me Berk. Only me mum calls me Bentley;)

 

2nd Id really encourage you 2 to consider starting in praetoria. As a duo you will be pretty well off there, and virtually all the mobs are humancentric to varying degrees, even the ghouls are just feral humans basically who are mildly mutated. Id say the psy chicks are the most power using over there. Most are using weapons/tech. Also the arcs really are way better written then any early blue/red side content imo. It even gives a great bit for your origin, in a world were metas rule as living gods, you two without powers decide to use skill and will to challenge the tyrant!

 

It actually even makes more sense, as in Paragon, well while we have non meta heroes, they almost seem a joke compared to the armed and armored factions like longbow and vanguard, especially when using archaic weapons like a bow( manticore is the biggest joke of the hero side icons for that very reason) whereas in praetoria where most with powers will logically fall into line with Cole's system that puts them at the top of society, its those without power who are going to be the logical foundation of any rebellion and uprising.

 

Also consider this, in coh lore magic comes mainly from ancient bloodlines dating back to Mu. So tossing out throwing knife for the magic origin power can be a way of hinting at that bloodline, and you could then expand it with a epic pool like mu mastery down the line if so inclined, that would help make a logical transition to incarnate powers and helping against foes that are just impractical from a logic pov for mere mortals with sticks being launched by strings.

 

Also bow, especially with the arrow powers it uses is really more a tech origin power set imo.

You make a credible case for Praetoria, Berk.  I will discuss it with my friend and see what he thinks.

 

Personally speaking though, we have found some of the Praetoria arcs frustrating in the past.  Bugs with long missions where they won't complete, forcing a re-run.  OP opponents for the level range etc.  As you say the writing is good, but technical issues have soured my own opinion.

[MTeague]

Double Trick Arrows... I missed that the first time through. 

 

That should work quite well.  Trick Arrow is Ka-Ka-KA-RAZY good debuffing, and with a PAIR of Flash Arrows you'll be able to pick your fights, skip what you choose to, and generally a lot of things will miss you.  Glue Arrow is super excellent for kiting mobs. It's actually quite good mitigation, because mobs spend so much effort trying to leave the glue patch you can get several free hits.

If you use Ice Arrows in conjunction you should be able to lock down bosses pretty well, too.

 

With NO IO's at all, one of you may want to dip into the Medicine pool.  But, also a lot to be said for skipping Medicine and both taking Manuevers and Assault.  Two stacks of Manuevers AND two Flash Arrows will seriously change the math on incoming to-hit rolls, and a couple stacks of Assault will boost your kill speed quite nicely.

[Tath99]

7 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Double Trick Arrows... I missed that the first time through. 

 

That should work quite well.  Trick Arrow is Ka-Ka-KA-RAZY good debuffing, and with a PAIR of Flash Arrows you'll be able to pick your fights, skip what you choose to, and generally a lot of things will miss you.  Glue Arrow is super excellent for kiting mobs. It's actually quite good mitigation, because mobs spend so much effort trying to leave the glue patch you can get several free hits.

If you use Ice Arrows in conjunction you should be able to lock down bosses pretty well, too.

 

With NO IO's at all, one of you may want to dip into the Medicine pool.  But, also a lot to be said for skipping Medicine and both taking Manuevers and Assault.  Two stacks of Manuevers AND two Flash Arrows will seriously change the math on incoming to-hit rolls, and a couple stacks of Assault will boost your kill speed quite nicely.

All of these are reasons why we are going double Trick Arrow.

 

We are also intrigued to see how well [Poison Gas Arrow] works in combination.  For those who aren't aware, [Poison Gas Arrow] offers excellent -damage on foes that are not slept for ~20 seconds.  This is an excellent window of opportunity to whittle down the opponents to a negligible threat.

 

Double [Acid Arrow] + Double [Disruption Arrow] is a whole lot of -resistance. 

 

We intend to play with Bosses turned on.

 

 

[Luminara]

2 minutes ago, Tath99 said:

All of these are reasons why we are going double Trick Arrow.

 

We are also intrigued to see how well [Poison Gas Arrow] works in combination.  For those who aren't aware, [Poison Gas Arrow] offers excellent -damage on foes that are not slept for ~20 seconds.  This is an excellent window of opportunity to whittle down the opponents to a negligible threat.

 

Double [Acid Arrow] + Double [Disruption Arrow] is a whole lot of -resistance. 

 

We intend to play with Bosses turned on.

 

 

 

Double PGA will Sleep bosses.  Double EMP Arrow will hold... God.  And everyone nearby.

 

Don't try to stack OSA.  Double Knockdown will turn into Knockback, and the frequency of OSA's pulses makes that a distinct possibility.

 

Double Glue Arrow won't be necessary unless you're fighting Crey tanks, Warwolves or other critters with significant +Movement.

 

Double Flash Arrow slotted for maximal -ToHit, stacked with double Maneuvers slotted for maximal +Def, brings your mitigation up to ~30.5%.

 

For a natural travel power approach, I recommend slotting Hurdle with 3 Jump SOs.  You'll be hopping along at ~49 mph (at level 50).  Take Combat Jumping for maneuverability, and a bit more +Def, but don't slot it for +Jump.  It only increases height, not speed, and the higher you leap, the slower you actually travel (when using Hurdle as a travel power).  Sprint adds nothing to jumping speed, either, and only a minute amount to height (0.5' at level 50).  That's the fastest method of movement without taking an actual travel power, using Ninja/Beast Run, or using a temp travel power.

 

When you're more accustomed to bouncing around, you can practice without CJ, if using it violates your definition of Natural.  But you really need it if you haven't played like that before.  Without CJ, you're incapable of altering your direction until you touch a horizontal surface (even a tiny one, like trim on a building), and you'll find yourself barreling into spawns.  Play it safe until you're comfortable with Hurdle.

 

You can try Sprint, but even with +3 SOs, 3 in both Sprint and Swift, you'll be limited to ~45.5 mph.  It's an inefficient use of slots, and working with SOs, those 4 extra slots would be better spent elsewhere.

 

Take and use Fistful of Arrows and Explosive Arrow.  You're going to take Rain of Arrows, and TA is an AoE set, so make the most of your AoE potential.  Put at least 1 Range enhancement in Fistful.  2 would be preferable.  The greater the range, the wider the mouth of the cone, and the further you are from being stabbed in the face.  With both of you pumping out AoE from Fistful and Explosive, you'll tear things apart quickly, and waiting for RoA won't feel nearly as rough.

 

Skip Stunning Shot.  Both of you.  It doesn't stack with Ice Arrow (stuns vs holds), and you won't need more control than you have with PGA, Ice, Emp and soft controls like Explosive's chance for KB, Glue's Avoid and OSA's KD.

 

If you have specific questions, ask.  I played travel power-less TAs on the original servers for 7 years.  And I'm playing more travel power-less characters, and TAs, here.

[Tath99]

9 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

Double PGA will Sleep bosses.  Double EMP Arrow will hold... God.  And everyone nearby.

 

Don't try to stack OSA.  Double Knockdown will turn into Knockback, and the frequency of OSA's pulses makes that a distinct possibility.

 

Double Glue Arrow won't be necessary unless you're fighting Crey tanks, Warwolves or other critters with significant +Movement.

 

Double Flash Arrow slotted for maximal -ToHit, stacked with double Maneuvers slotted for maximal +Def, brings your mitigation up to ~30.5%.

 

For a natural travel power approach, I recommend slotting Hurdle with 3 Jump SOs.  You'll be hopping along at ~49 mph (at level 50).  Take Combat Jumping for maneuverability, and a bit more +Def, but don't slot it for +Jump.  It only increases height, not speed, and the higher you leap, the slower you actually travel (when using Hurdle as a travel power).  Sprint adds nothing to jumping speed, either, and only a minute amount to height (0.5' at level 50).  That's the fastest method of movement without taking an actual travel power, using Ninja/Beast Run, or using a temp travel power.

 

When you're more accustomed to bouncing around, you can practice without CJ, if using it violates your definition of Natural.  But you really need it if you haven't played like that before.  Without CJ, you're incapable of altering your direction until you touch a horizontal surface (even a tiny one, like trim on a building), and you'll find yourself barreling into spawns.  Play it safe until you're comfortable with Hurdle.

 

You can try Sprint, but even with +3 SOs, 3 in both Sprint and Swift, you'll be limited to ~45.5 mph.  It's an inefficient use of slots, and working with SOs, those 4 extra slots would be better spent elsewhere.

 

Take and use Fistful of Arrows and Explosive Arrow.  You're going to take Rain of Arrows, and TA is an AoE set, so make the most of your AoE potential.  Put at least 1 Range enhancement in Fistful.  2 would be preferable.  The greater the range, the wider the mouth of the cone, and the further you are from being stabbed in the face.  With both of you pumping out AoE from Fistful and Explosive, you'll tear things apart quickly, and waiting for RoA won't feel nearly as rough.

 

Skip Stunning Shot.  Both of you.  It doesn't stack with Ice Arrow (stuns vs holds), and you won't need more control than you have with PGA, Ice, Emp and soft controls like Explosive's chance for KB, Glue's Avoid and OSA's KD.

 

If you have specific questions, ask.  I played travel power-less TAs on the original servers for 7 years.  And I'm playing more travel power-less characters, and TAs, here.

Thanks for the advice, Luminara!  Your expertise might be drawn upon.  😉

 

The comments about AOE are especially welcome -- I was in two minds over [Fistful of Arrows].

 

The Build we are aiming for is yet to be determined.  'Controllery' is what we have decided so far.  🙂

 

Ideally we want [Combat Jump] & [Stealth] to fit the Natural concept.    Experience has taught us rounding corners and running into mobs requires -perception and a jumping exit strategy.

 

 

[Outrider_01]

Lots of over thinking over a simple answer

 

Clobber everything in your path of righteous justice and defense of the morally upright citizens.

 

Its the only *Natural* thing to do

Edited August 8, 2020 by Outrider_01