Weekly Discussion 63: Ice Armor

[GM Miss]

Weekly discussion 63 - Week 8/09/20-8/15/20:

 

⚔️YOU VOTED: Let's talk about Ice Armor!⚔️ 

 

❓Things to think about:

>Here is a link on Inherent Powers: https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Ice_Armor

 

>How does it compare to other armor sets?

>What do you love?

>What would you change?

 

Let's Chat 😄

Edited August 11, 2020 by GM Miss

[Greycat]

Ice armor's pretty cool as is, though I know some people have issues with the graphics.

Don't think I've gotten one to 50 yet. Working on that.

[Patti]

Ice is pretty cool.

Yup.

That about sums it up.

[Black Zot]

Does what it does pretty well.

 

Unfortunately one of those things it does is being one of the ugliest powersets in the game.

[drbuzzard]

The version on sentinels breaks the trend of sentinels generally having an improved version of a defensive set. It's the worst sentinel defensive set in my opinion after playing all of them (to 50).

 

It's a mixed defense/resistance set, which can be nice if they overlap, or have another protection mechanism (like Bio or Willpower), but this one is mostly defense based, but with exceptions for fire and ice (and barely any resistance to fire). It includes a dull pain like heal/HP boost, but on a damned slow timer. The linchpin of the set on other ATs is energy absorption, changed to moisture absorption here, and it's comparatively crappy. To gain the biggest chunk of your defense, you'd have to go into a crowd, pick one, and drain endurance to get your defense up high enough to be credible. While the power says it targets more than one enemy, it only applies the defensive bonus once (unlike the version on other ATs) so you get a whopping boost of under 5% defense when slotted up. 

 

I remember when I built a character to try this out, I read the defensive numbers, but held out hope that Frigid Shield might be a nice defensive buffer like the absorb shield on regen for sentinels. Nope- it's pure garbage. It gives you a 30.12 HP shield at level 50. That's less than a love tap from a minion. What's the point?

 

People say Icy Bastion is good stuff, but I generally skip tier 9s and try to maintain a consistent level of defensive performance on my sentinels. Perhaps Icy Bastion is enough to make the set tolerable, but it doesn't work for me, and the rest of the set is mostly either under powered or simply a hot mess (ok, cold mess). Every other sentinel set I have played allowed me to make a good durable build without considering the tier 9 power.

[MTeague]

• Please keep the existing graphics as an OPTION whether or not you add additional graphic choices.
• It does have a hole against Fire and Psi, but both are very patchable with IO sets.   It always feels wasteful stacking so much cold resist to bring fire resistance up to acceptable levels, but hey. Such is life and the OCD of slot allocations.
• I've never been quite sure what to make of Hibernate.  On one hand a "I can't do anything to you" power .... doesn't help you defeat the enemy when soloing. But I've seen ice tanks hold aggro like a champ even when Hibernating, and as long as they can still hold threat while Ice Block'd, then that's all that really matters.  And it probably does make a nice "Oh Crap!" button if a sapper sneaks through your defenses on a natural 20, etc.

Now Ice MELEE, I have several things I'd like changed, but that is Sir-Not-Appearing-In-This-Topic.

[kiramon]

12 minutes ago, drbuzzard said:

The version on sentinels breaks the trend of sentinels generally having an improved version of a defensive set. It's the worst sentinel defensive set in my opinion after playing all of them (to 50).

 

It's a mixed defense/resistance set, which can be nice if they overlap, or have another protection mechanism (like Bio or Willpower), but this one is mostly defense based, but with exceptions for fire and ice (and barely any resistance to fire). It includes a dull pain like heal/HP boost, but on a damned slow timer. The linchpin of the set on other ATs is energy absorption, changed to moisture absorption here, and it's comparatively crappy. To gain the biggest chunk of your defense, you'd have to go into a crowd, pick one, and drain endurance to get your defense up high enough to be credible. While the power says it targets more than one enemy, it only applies the defensive bonus once (unlike the version on other ATs) so you get a whopping boost of under 5% defense when slotted up. 

 

I remember when I built a character to try this out, I read the defensive numbers, but held out hope that Frigid Shield might be a nice defensive buffer like the absorb shield on regen for sentinels. Nope- it's pure garbage. It gives you a 30.12 HP shield at level 50. That's less than a love tap from a minion. What's the point?

 

People say Icy Bastion is good stuff, but I generally skip tier 9s and try to maintain a consistent level of defensive performance on my sentinels. Perhaps Icy Bastion is enough to make the set tolerable, but it doesn't work for me, and the rest of the set is mostly either under powered or simply a hot mess (ok, cold mess). Every other sentinel set I have played allowed me to make a good durable build without considering the tier 9 power.

 

Okay Okay. 

I gotta tell you... Just because you like skipping tier9s, doesn't mean the t9 doesn't shore up a weakness. Icy Bastion is by far the most useful thing in the set for a Sentinel...

 

BUT I agree with everything else! 

1. The Absorb in /ice for Sentinels is totally borked. Something isn't right with it. It's bad.

2. Ice sentinel has some weird thing where it thinks it needs more +max hp, even though it can already cap itself with just Hoarfrost. The T8 needs a change... 

 

Ice in general, however:

1. It's a good set. However, it relies on a lot of layered defenses which ultimately don't come out as well as just having, well, stronger defenses. 

2. The minimal FX for it are fine and dandy - although some variation there would be cool since they all look pretty similar... also, if we could add more color instead of the ice blue/greens, that'd be cool. 

[zenijos10]

Ice armor is obtrusive! (Stone and fire too)  Can we get an alternate animations? Maybe:

• with a large floating ice shield(rock for stone armor) , 
• a few a small ones maybe floating around characters like the particle aura?
• A tinting effect that "shines" with ice or snow effects.  The shine will move down the head and body as if someone was moving a narrow flashlight beam on the character from head to toe.
• Give an option to make the current armor  totally transparent.
• Something like the purple shields AVs get, except the icon is powerset themed.
• An eruption of the give  element from the ground or sky every so often, resembling bending techniques in Avatar cartoon series.

Most players spend a lot of time making our costumes, these obstructive armors(also concealment) damage that aspect of the game.   Of course, some people design their characters around these armors, so please keep the original graphics too.

Edited August 11, 2020 by zenijos10

[kiramon]

23 minutes ago, zenijos10 said:

Ice armor is obtrusive! (Stone and fire too)  Can we get an alternate animations? Maybe:

• with a large floating ice shield(rock for stone armor) , 
• a few a small ones maybe floating around characters like the particle aura?
• A tinting effect that "shines" with ice or snow effects.  The shine will move down the head and body as if someone was moving a narrow flashlight beam on the character from head to toe.
• Give an option to make the current armor  totally transparent.
• Something like the purple shields AVs get, except the icon is powerset themed.
• An eruption of the give  element from the ground or sky every so often, resembling bending techniques in Avatar cartoon series.

Most players spend a lot of time making our costumes, these obstructive armors(also concealment) damage that aspect of the game.   Of course, some people design their characters around these armors, so please keep the original graphics too.

 

I think that'd be cool -- if they used like the Stone armor's Mineral graphic but with like a snowflake, haha... 

[Parabola]

A lower fx option for icicles would be nice. They are phenomenally ugly when you've taken the low fx option for your other armours. I may as well add that frozen fists desperately need a low fx option too.

 

I have a soft spot for ice armour as my first 50 on live was an ice tank. Ice is fantastic at keeping aggro but just feels like it is missing a little something. The fire hole isn't too much of a problem but the psi hole becomes very apparent late game. It's not all that easy to patch on a mainly defence based set due to limited opportunities to slot impervium armour.

 

Hoarfrost is good without being amazing, icicles is a little hamstrung by weak damage of a very resisted kind and permafrost is one of those little powers that I always begrudge taking because why on earth is there so much cold resist?! I like hibernate, I view it as a more useful self revive because you don't need to retoggle. Energy absorption is great, by the time you get it you are generally crying out for it to fix endurance problems and it can add decent defence in a group.

 

If I could have any changes I liked I might look at upping the damage on icicles (along with the aforemention fx option) and changing permafrost to give less cold resist but perhaps adding some psi resist? I'm wondering if I might prefer a version of hoarfrost that had less max hp but more heal on a lower cooldown. Or maybe absorb might be the way to go? It's not a bad power at all but I feel ice needs just a bit more survivability.

[Chance Jackson]

can the dmg aura be moved so that players get it sooner

[Galaxy Brain]

What I like:

 

Ice offers a bkt of everything you'd see in any given armor set

 

Chilling embrace and the theme of ice debuffing enemies around you so that you are tougher by contrast is cool, and provides team support.

 

 

What I don't like:

 

In a super duper meta sense, ice's strength against cold damage is near useless. Cold damage is found in only 2% of enemy attacks (give or take) which makes it an incredibly dubious thing to be immune to. 

[FoulVileTerror]

About the only thing I'd like for Ice Armour is for Wet Ice to take some Invention Sets.  I know that the Defense it offers is so minuscule that the Legacy Devs removed the ability to Slot Defense Enhancements in it (since it was viewed as a "newb trap").  However, now with Inventions, there are some wonderful opportunities that could be introduced by re-enabling Slotting in that particular Power.

If not Defense Sets, then (as mentioned in previous discussions) it would be wonderful to implement some Universal Sets, for Powers like Fulcrum Shift, Sonic Siphon, or (here) Wet Ice.

[Turric]

My vote would be for less intrusive graphics BUT keep the original as an option.

[Carnifax]

3 hours ago, Turric said:

My vote would be for less intrusive graphics BUT keep the original as an option.

This. It's so ugly. It really needs a MinFX version of its armours. Icicles is terrible looking. 

 

Good set on my scrapper. Excellent Tier 9 which compliments the rest of the set, rather than being "Moar of what the rest of the set does, with a huge crash" like Overload or even Meltdown (okay that doesn't have the evil crash but it's just more resists I don't really need). Hibernate (as my epic choice) is good too in terms of being a life saver. On a tank I'm not sure if I'd like to be "tapping out" in the middle of a fight but I guess if you know what you're doing with Taunts you should be okay. 

[Blastit]

46 minutes ago, Carnifax said:

This. It's so ugly. It really needs a MinFX version of its armours. Icicles is terrible looking.

It has a minfx option. It doesn't have a zero FX option but those are reserved for sets that give more physically inherent protection.

 

 

I would like an FX set that looks more like plate armour made out of ice, but that's about it.

[Carnifax]

9 minutes ago, Blastit said:

It has a minfx option. It doesn't have a zero FX option but those are reserved for sets that give more physically inherent protection.

 

 

I would like an FX set that looks more like plate armour made out of ice, but that's about it.

Doe Icicles? I couldn't do anything other than tint it a pinky-purple to make it mostly transparent. Still irks me. Occasionally I'll turn into a white blob too, not sure why. 

[ForeverLaxx]

As other said, and will probably say for quite a while yet, is that the powerset itself looks ugly. Providing alternate options for appearance beyond simply MinFX could be warranted and may even contribute to interesting costume ideas if done well (though that can be said about many of the armor sets, if I'm being honest).

 

As for the set on a mechanical level, it's overwhelming strength against Ice damage just isn't that useful. Very few foes use attacks that contain ice as a damage component so it feels like the thing you're best at dealing with never shows up. Being relatively "soft" to Fire as a compensation doesn't seem fair in comparison though I suppose it could be seen as thematic to the nature of Ice and might not be something that can be justified looking at. However, perhaps the Psi hole could be reduced and explained away by a sort of "brain freeze"-like effect so it only has the one glaring issue rather than two.

 

I've always felt the damage aura should come sooner than it does, specifically for the ATs that have Ice Armor as their secondary. I know Chilling Embrace provides survival utility with the debuff, but it's strange for a strict damage aura to show up so late in a powerset. Although, I've always been of the mind that these two powers should be combined into one, making room for another power in the set that could then become something like what I suggested above with "Brain Freeze".

 

Hibernate and Icy Bastion are both interesting and strong powers, but maybe they could be given to all sets as an either/or option sort of like how Sentinels get to choose whether they get toggle or click mez protection. Hibernate has important usage that Bastion can't replicate, but Bastion tends to work better for the average player and play-group.

 

For something a bit more personal opinion, I think powers like Hoarfrost (which includes things like Dull Pain, Earth's Embrace, etc) should probably be converted to an Absorb rather than a +HP if possible. This effect more accurately describes what they're trying to do, though I understand that this would technically make them "weaker" in the sense that +HP provides incidentally stronger regeneration while +Absorb would provide no benefit of that nature on its own. Of course, this could be remedied by the power also boosting regeneration a small amount for the duration of the power, too. That's just a bit of a personal wish, though.

[Scranker]

3 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Hibernate and Icy Bastion are both interesting and strong powers, but maybe they could be given to all sets as an either/or option sort of like how Sentinels get to choose whether they get toggle or click mez protection. Hibernate has important usage that Bastion can't replicate, but Bastion tends to work better for the average player and play-group.

For my Ice Tanker, this is what I'd really like to see, having a choice of T9s because while Hibernate is a great panic button, I never really use it (and eventually respec'd out of it; it can also be easily replaced by the Ethereal Shift temp power from the p2w lady), but Icy Bastion would see use in every tough fight maknig it far more valuable to me and not feel like a waste of a power pick. Though leave Hibernate as an option for those who'd prefer that instead.

[Bill Z Bubba]

DDR is too low for the amount of mitigation that relies on the set's defense values. It too easily succumbs to defense debuffs and is arguably the weakest armor set because of it. Well, maybe not as bad as regen, but it's close.

[Omega-202]

4 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Hibernate and Icy Bastion are both interesting and strong powers, but maybe they could be given to all sets as an either/or option sort of like how Sentinels get to choose whether they get toggle or click mez protection. Hibernate has important usage that Bastion can't replicate, but Bastion tends to work better for the average player and play-group.

There is a slight issue with that idea in that Scrappers and Stalkers can get Hibernate in the Leviathan PPP.  There might be people out there currently rocking both powers so that would need to be addressed by dropping Hibernate from Leviathan (making a small group of people upset), making the change only really apply to Tanks and Brutes, or diving into the spaghetti code to make it so that Scrappers/Stalkers can't take double Hibernate.

[Carnifax]

4 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

There might be people out there currently rocking both powers so that would need to be addressed by dropping Hibernate from Leviathan (making a small group of people upset)

*Waves*

[Coyotedancer]

I'm far from an /Ice expert, only having used it on a few characters... But just as general impressions, it seems fine on my unicorn Dark/Ice Stalker. 'Not the most attractive set in the game, but I tend to go for Minimal FX any time I can anyway, so practically ANY of the more "in your face" effects are going to get that reaction from me.

 

/Ice on Sents has already been addressed. I'll just add my +1 to what's already been said.

My Fire/Ice is, by a pretty noticeable margin, the least durable of my collection of Sentinels. If I run her like an "unarmored" blaster, she's fine... But there's no way she can get away with some of the things my tougher Sents do.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by Coyotedancer

[ForeverLaxx]

17 minutes ago, Omega-202 said:

There is a slight issue with that idea in that Scrappers and Stalkers can get Hibernate in the Leviathan PPP.  There might be people out there currently rocking both powers so that would need to be addressed by dropping Hibernate from Leviathan (making a small group of people upset), making the change only really apply to Tanks and Brutes, or diving into the spaghetti code to make it so that Scrappers/Stalkers can't take double Hibernate.

I had forgotten that Scrappers/Stalkers have this (and is likely why they got Icy Bastion instead) but I'm sure there's a solution if this is a route they want to take. Perhaps they can add a debuff to Hibernate that prevents its usage during a set time (such as the base recharge of the power minus about half a second to account for latency) which would make having "double Hibernate" functionally pointless outside of combating -recharge effects. Though I suppose that would weaken any builds running Burnout specifically for hitting Hibernate twice (not that i know of any, but I'm sure they exist). Of course, having a power in a PPP that you have available as a main-set power feels really odd. Maybe then, perhaps, only Brutes and Tanks should get the split choice as they don't have any other option?

 

Not really sure, honestly. Just spitballing here.

[Carnifax]

18 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

only Brutes and Tanks should get the split choice as they don't have any other option?

This is probably the fairest approach. The tech is there I assume. Soldiers of Arachnos have it for the flavours of Grenades to avoid someone picking Acid twice (which everyone would probably do cos it's excellent).