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Mo'Fire

What is the point of Scrappers????

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1 minute ago, Werner said:

It's too late. He gave up on us. Sorry, "with" us. Now I'll never know what "the elude effect" is, what "evade states" are, and what sort of "base stat modifyers" were changed. And I guess there's no point looking for understanding in the patch notes since the nerf "was not announced". If only I'd been "pushing the Scrapper to its limits", maybe I'd have "noticed those effects", but unfortunately at the time I was just a casual player soloing AVs and the RWZ challenge using Scrapper challenge rules. Ah, well. I suppose I don't need to understand an 11-year old stealth nerf.

I was expecting a "Scrappers will be gone to the Americans!" in there.

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2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I think it was supposed to be Evade Stats. 

 

Also the Elude effect I'm speculating he is saying there is some sort of Defense version of Damage Scale.  So that scrappers get less out of capped defense than Brutes and Tankers do. 

 

So implying some sort of fractional multiplier I guess.  

 

Not actually a bad idea game design wise.  I'd be surprised if it hadn't been used somewhere.  Just I never heard of it in COH .. 

indeed, AT specific defense caps would have been a good idea, but that ship sailed a loooooooong time ago.

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dammit.. this had such popcorn potential

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1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

I think it was supposed to be Evade Stats. 

 

Also the Elude effect I'm speculating he is saying there is some sort of Defense version of Damage Scale.  So that scrappers get less out of capped defense than Brutes and Tankers do. 

 

So implying some sort of fractional multiplier I guess.  

 

Not actually a bad idea game design wise.  I'd be surprised if it hadn't been used somewhere.  Just I never heard of it in COH .. 

Ah! So maybe an archetype accuracy multiplier, just like the rank accuracy multiplier. So soft cap defense would still floor their chance to hit you, but maybe they have a 1.3x accuracy multiplier because you're a Scrapper, but would have a 1x accuracy multiplier for a Tanker, and 1.1x accuracy multiplier for a Brute, say. You're right, not a bad idea necessarily if balanced with everything else, and probably easily implemented. Easy to test if there is such a thing. Take a Scrapper, a Brute, and a Tanker sitting at the soft cap, and track how often they're hit by an even-level minion. If it's not 5% for all three (no to hit modifier, no rank accuracy multiplier), there's something interesting going on.

 

Edit: Though even if all are 5% now, maybe there were accuracy multipliers before the stealth nerf, but in the opposite direction. So a Scrapper was 0.8x, Brute was 0.9x, Tanker was 1x say. So a Scrapper was harder to hit than a Tanker when they had the same defense. And everything was balanced around that multiplier, like the higher hit points and caps. So then when the game became what we think it is today, with no archetype accuracy multiplier, that was a Scrapper nerf. It seems implausible, but that would perhaps be in line with what was being claimed.

Edited by Werner

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On 8/31/2020 at 4:49 PM, Mo'Fire said:

For those who do not know, The Scrapper Class was nerfed a long time ago shortly after AE come out and before ATO sets come about.

 

What they did was change the ability to evade attacks from soft cap defences and cap resists and also a critical hit nerf.

 

When AE 1st hit live me and my pals was doing these fire farms everyone is doing now but with ONLY elites bosses with a Spines/Fire/Fire.

 

Now with soft cap defences and cap resists  the Scrapper class cannot do AE farms effectively.

 

Personally I want to play a Scrapper but every time I level 1 to 50 I slot it and play it for a day and unslot it because I have got in the back of my mind how good Scrappers used to be, and those IO's are better used in a Blaster Brute or Tank.

 

This show with the live class stats

 

 

Maybe you haven't heard but in the next issue, scrappers are getting... scrapped.

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6 hours ago, Mo'Fire said:

NOT the physical number stats you see, but the base stat modifyers.

The physical numbers that you see are all shown after the calculations for stat modifiers. There is no invisible stat modifier that isn't shown.

Scrappers and Brutes have lower modifiers for their armor powers. This is true and nobody is disputing that. A Brute or a Scrapper will get less out of their armor powers than Tankers because of base stat modifiers. This is also true and nobody is disputing that. This is why the end-result numbers for each archetype are different. For instance, a Scrapper/Brute will only get 22.5% Smashing/Lethal resistance from Fire Armor, whereas a Tanker will get 30% on the same power. Those numbers are the result of the calculations including the archetype's stat modifiers with the individual power's effects.

 

There are no invisible numbers in play here. There isn't some secret or trick that the game isn't telling you. The numbers you see for each power are the final result of all the calculations the game does for each power.

You are factually, objectively in the wrong here and you've provided no evidence whatsoever to back up your claims. Anecdotes are not evidence. We're sitting here trying to give you the actual, real numbers and you don't want to listen.

Edited by GastlyGibus
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Global Handle: @Warning Shot
Council of the Rose

 

"I can do it! I can do it nine times!"

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I do think the OP is right about the change, though. However, I have fortunate news for them: when HC was launched the new devs secretly undid this nerf. It wasn't documented in the patch notes, but I instantly noticed that my Scrapper's performance was now again exactly the same as before! Obviously you can't verify this within the game because the change was made in the base stat modifyers, but if you have been pushing your Scrapper to the limit, you'll know. Just try playing +4x8 and you'll see the similarity in the evade states.

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Torchbearer:

Sunsinger - Fire/Time Corruptor

Cursebreaker - TW/Elec Brute

Coldheart - Ill/Cold Controller

Mythoclast - Rad/SD Scrapper

 

Give a man a build export and you feed him for a day, teach him to build and he's fed for a lifetime.

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Just now, DSorrow said:

I do think the OP is right about the change, though. However, I have fortunate news for them: when HC was launched the new devs secretly undid this nerf. It wasn't documented in the patch notes, but I instantly noticed that my Scrapper's performance was now again exactly the same as before! Obviously you can't verify this within the game because the change was made in the base stat modifyers, but if you have been pushing your Scrapper to the limit, you'll know. Just try playing +4x8 and you'll see the similarity in the evade states.

By any chance is your scrapper strong, and pretty?

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10 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

By any chance is your scrapper strong, and pretty?

My Scrapper's all gone to the Americans.

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Torchbearer:

Sunsinger - Fire/Time Corruptor

Cursebreaker - TW/Elec Brute

Coldheart - Ill/Cold Controller

Mythoclast - Rad/SD Scrapper

 

Give a man a build export and you feed him for a day, teach him to build and he's fed for a lifetime.

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4 hours ago, DSorrow said:

I do think the OP is right about the change, though. However, I have fortunate news for them: when HC was launched the new devs secretly undid this nerf. It wasn't documented in the patch notes, but I instantly noticed that my Scrapper's performance was now again exactly the same as before! Obviously you can't verify this within the game because the change was made in the base stat modifyers, but if you have been pushing your Scrapper to the limit, you'll know. Just try playing +4x8 and you'll see the similarity in the evade states.

 

This.

 

This right here is how one wins a thread.

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4 hours ago, DSorrow said:

but if you have been pushing your Scrapper to the limit, you'll know. 

You'll know that...

 

Not of it.: The Limit Does Not Exist in Houston - Borrowing A Line From  Mean Girls

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6 hours ago, DSorrow said:

I do think the OP is right about the change, though. However, I have fortunate news for them: when HC was launched the new devs secretly undid this nerf. It wasn't documented in the patch notes, but I instantly noticed that my Scrapper's performance was now again exactly the same as before! Obviously you can't verify this within the game because the change was made in the base stat modifyers, but if you have been pushing your Scrapper to the limit, you'll know. Just try playing +4x8 and you'll see the similarity in the evade states.

This explains everything.  Now I totally get why we are not seeing the issue.  That is why when you go on test and make an identical scrapper and brute they have the same numbers (outside of hp) as long as they are not beyond 75% resists.  That is why when you take those identical characters into the same mission the mobs hit you just as often and do the exact same damage.  Clearly that stealth nerf must have been accidentally undone with some of the HC changes.

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@Fortunetellerget out of my head!  LOL, this song is exactly what was in my mind every time I read "pushing your Scrapper to the limit".  

This thread has become the best thread because of the sheer laugh factor.  

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1 hour ago, HelenCarnate said:

This explains everything.  Now I totally get why we are not seeing the issue.  That is why when you go on test and make an identical scrapper and brute they have the same numbers (outside of hp) as long as they are not beyond 75% resists.  That is why when you take those identical characters into the same mission the mobs hit you just as often and do the exact same damage.  Clearly that stealth nerf must have been accidentally undone with some of the HC changes.

No.  It doesn't go deep enough into what happened with the Scrapper nerfs.  

You see, you have to remove all of the aglets from your shoelaces and toss out all of your fluoride products in order to see the truth.  The REAL truth.  The real truth is that all dogs do NOT go to heaven.  Often times dogs to backyard barbecues.  No, no, it isn't for a dinner of grilled hot dogs but instead it is for avocados.   Avocados wrapped in tissue paper.  THAT is the reality that NCSoft didn't want you to know about.  Look, we all get it.  Dogs cheat a poker.  Scrappers were all originally intended to wear their shoes on their hands and punch with their feet.  The game couldn't handle this.  So the back ground metrics and evade frames were added to compensate for the lack of stopping power of the F-150 fired from the hip.  
 

All you have to do is go on a test server and put a Scrapper next to a Brute.  The results are immediately clear: refrigerator.  

Given all of the facts above, I'm not sure why there is any debate.  You all must be macaroons to think otherwise.  TAKE OFF THE BLINDERS SHEEPLE!!  The way you know something is fraud is because you can't prove it!  

Edited by oldskool
I removed the real truth.
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to be fair, i think a lot of people play scrappers thinking they are going to tank, or brute, or whatever that isn't a scrapper.

 

cmon now! give up that survivability! max out dat damagez! show those stalkers who has the real aoe!

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On 9/2/2020 at 5:36 PM, Hew said:

to be fair, i think a lot of people play scrappers thinking they are going to tank, or brute, or whatever that isn't a scrapper.

 

cmon now! give up that survivability! max out dat damagez! show those stalkers who has the real aoe!

Blasters

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On 9/1/2020 at 5:59 PM, Werner said:

It's too late. He gave up on us. Sorry, "with" us. Now I'll never know what "the elude effect" is, what "evade states" are, and what sort of "base stat modifyers" were changed. And I guess there's no point looking for understanding in the patch notes since the nerf "was not announced". If only I'd been "pushing the Scrapper to its limits", maybe I'd have "noticed those effects", but unfortunately at the time I was just a casual player soloing AVs and the RWZ challenge using Scrapper challenge rules. Ah, well. I suppose I don't need to understand an 11-year old stealth nerf.

Yea I am not sure how the hell we completed the all scrapper stf with the repairman bug that auto healed the entire tower. Werner we just imagined we did that and how the broad/sword shield tanked Lord recluse.


FlashBack to old days: Pinnacle

Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50

Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50

Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50; Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50; Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA

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There was one nerf to scrappers way after AE and it was a correct nerf there was a typo in Shield Charge on scrappers and it was so broken. We even tested it for the devs and gave tons of feedback and got it to be in a sweet spot of not overpowered and I even was in agreement with that nerf it was so broken.


FlashBack to old days: Pinnacle

Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50

Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50

Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50; Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50; Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA

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On 9/1/2020 at 7:07 PM, Wavicle said:

indeed, AT specific defense caps would have been a good idea, but that ship sailed a loooooooong time ago.

AT-specific defense caps do exist, they're just so high they're functionally irrelevant. That being said...

 

#implementPvPdiminishingreturnsinPvE

 

>.>

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@macskull/@Not Mac

Proc information and chance calculator spreadsheet (last updated 25JUL20)

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Fun thread to go through, but to answer the original question.

1.  Go to youtube

2.  Search for Leroy Jenkins

3.  Watch video

 

That is the point of scrappers.  :)

 

 

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