It doesn't "pay" to play a support character

[Diantane]

When playing COH I've noticed holes in the Pickup Groups (PUG). Players keep losing their characters to the hospital or rez's when available. New Defenders that are playing their character like a weak blaster and not concentrating on their character's primary skill set. Tanks also do the same. Lots of attacks but can't "tank" very well.

 

So I created a few "dedicated" characters. Like a tank that is built for defense only. One that can take the punishment of an alpha strike. Only had the weak, unslotted, unused first attack and the strong and slotted taunt skill. Also had tough, weave, combat jumping (7 defense toggles in all). This one was a Willpower tank.

 

Also when I play defenders, It is focused on the primary skills (not the weak blaster). He is complete support to the team.

 

Here's the problem. The way the mechanics of the game works (that I have noticed), is that you get little to no influence or loot unless you are causing DAMAGE! After playing my tank and running a team for seven hours straight, I end up with 60,000 influence and 3 TO's. How could I possibly enhance my character with this pitiful return? Most of my slots are empty and the rest have level 15 IO's (this at security level 26). This isn't going to work. My dedicated tank that everyone loved...... has failed. He won't be able to perform as he once did. To protect the team from almost all incoming damage.

 

Now to help fix this problem I am starting to train offensive skills (the higher tier ones), but it will be a long road ahead because I can't enhance them very well. My skills won't have the correct level IO's until 35 or 40 should i decide to play him at all. It might be better to make a DPS character and die a thousand times due to the "holes" in the group.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Diantane

[Lunchmoney]

48 minutes ago, Diantane said:

 

Here's the problem. The way the mechanics of the game works (that I have noticed), is that you get little to no influence or loot unless you are causing DAMAGE

I don't think that's true, else players would not be able to park a character at the door just inside a mission and collect xp, inf, and loot. (Sometimes called leaching.)

Unless HC changed something 🤷

Edited September 7, 2020 by Lunchmoney

[Lines]

I don't know about inf, but drops are distributed randomly across a team. For that reason, I find that characters I can comfortably solo on end up much better off than those I can't. Maybe that's what the OP is seeing?

 

I'm like 99% sure damage has nothing to do with it. Not to say support toons haven't been shafted a bit though.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Lines

[siolfir]

59 minutes ago, Diantane said:

The way the mechanics of the game works (that I have noticed), is that you get little to no influence or loot unless you are causing DAMAGE!

You can literally sit at the door of a mission and collect rewards without doing any damage. The reason you get "fast" inf for more damage is because you get more kills per minute, not because you get more per kill. Over the course of a single mission, if you clear it out, you'll get the same rewards as a high damage character - it will just take longer unless the high damage character is bad and keeps dying, causing themselves to slow down to the low damage character's pace (the tortoise and the hare scenario).

 

I'm not going to say that everyone on a team gets an equal amount of xp, inf, and drops because that's not true, but everyone on the team (except the leader) gets an amount of xp and inf based on their level and the relative level of the mobs for defeats, and based on their level and the difficulty slider setting for end of mission rewards (their slider setting if they also have the mission and do a simultaneous completion), with some missions also throwing in inf for glowy clicks. The leader gets a different amount for end of mission which is usually lower than the rest of the team for some stupid reason (it's been reported as a bug a few times iirc). Enhancement, inspiration, salvage, and recipe drops are random and could go to anyone on the team, but it's a chance per teammate per kill with another chance at the end of a mission, and another at the end of a task force; the leader (or everyone through Ouroboros) gets an end-of-arc reward for story arcs.

 

If you feel that you're not getting a lot of inf, it's because your team isn't defeating many mobs (playing on x1 with small teams?), the mobs are at a low relative level (playing on +0?), you have a 1.5/2xp booster running (which cuts inf gain), or you're not using the market and simply noticing that the low level drops don't keep up with your inf needs if you only go to the stores - which is why I'll either send inf from alts, use a 2xp booster to get past the low levels to where you can make enough to support yourself, join high-level teams since the level 50 common IO recipes sell for much more and you can get purple drops, or a combination of any or all of the above.

Edited September 7, 2020 by siolfir
clarifying difficulty slider setting for end of mission

[Chris24601]

Characters have more than enough power picks and slots that building for “tank only” or “buff only” is a gimp build and actually holding your team back. If all you’re using is taunt you’re taunting maybe half what could be achieved if you were also using your attack powers.

 

Likewise, the ultimate in damage mitigation for your allies is inflicting the “dead” status effect on a target and a good defender knows when popping off a blast is more useful than spamming a heal on a group that’s already topped off on health (particularly if that blast has a useful debuff attached to it... ex. /dark can nerf a target’s to-hit into the floor with a couple shots, particularly if the attack is slotted with some to-hit debuff instead of straight damage).

 

This isn’t a “holy trinity” MMO. Defenders and Tankers don’t have attack secondaries for show; they’re intended to be used.

[Diantane]

error

Edited September 7, 2020 by Diantane

[Diantane]

37 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

If all you’re using is taunt you’re taunting maybe half what could be achieved if you were also using your attack powers.

If a tank is not concentrating on his job, part or all of the team could wipe. You name me any mmo where a tank can go off and kill stuff like a DPS without wiping the team.

 

LOTRO, WOW, etc. A tank is a tank - period! (unless just solo leveling)

 

The tank must keep other defenseless characters safe (blasters, PB, MM, defenders, controllers, etc. Plus melee that put most into their DPS (no defense)).

[Diantane]

Maybe the developers nerfed being able to collect loot at the door and that hit non-damaging characters as well.

 

If I get an equal share of the loot, then why did I only get 60k inf and 3 TO's after 7 hours of doing tons of missions with a group of 5-8 players? If they got the same, then all of those characters will go broke and stop playing the game because their character can't perform correctly.

 

I've got about 30 characters with a maximum level of 26. Most of them have less than 3,000 influence. The highest has about 50,000. The game just doesn't give rewards very well anymore.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Diantane

[Seed22]

13 minutes ago, Diantane said:

If a tank is not concentrating on his job, part or all of the team could wipe. You name me any mmo where a tank can go off and kill stuff like a DPS without wiping the team.

 

LOTRO, WOW, etc. A tank is a tank - period! (unless just solo leveling)

 

The tank must keep other defenseless characters safe (blasters, PB, MM, defenders, controllers, etc. Plus melee that put most into their DPS (no defense)).

You’re literally playing the only MMO where a tank doesnt need to just spam taunt. Do you know what an IO is? Look into it, figure out how they work, then go play with some ACTUAL 50s. Youll see none of this you’re saying is even remotely true

Edited September 7, 2020 by Seed22

[Wobegone]

8 minutes ago, Diantane said:

If a tank is not concentrating on his job, part or all of the team could wipe. You name me any mmo where a tank can go off and kill stuff like a DPS without wiping the team.

 

LOTRO, WOW, etc. A tank is a tank - period! (unless just solo leveling)

 

The tank must keep other defenseless characters safe (blasters, PB, MM, defenders, controllers, etc. Plus melee that put most into their DPS (no defense)).

Much like WoW, DPS is an important part of a tank's job.  Attacking, especially with AoE powers, grabs aggro.  You coulld also throw in Taunt IOS in Rise to the Challenge(your taunt aura) I suppose, but I've never needed to.  

 

[Judasace]

18 minutes ago, Diantane said:

You name me any mmo where a tank can go off and kill stuff like a DPS without wiping the team.

 

City of Heroes. Also, Asheron's call.

 

These games were not built with the Holy Trinity in mind. They don't work that way. You're like a tourist visiting another country and screaming "They don't do it that way in MY country, you backwards buffoons."

 

I can and have done entire +4 TFs with a mix of scrapper and blasters. I've even done them with all blasters.

 

Not all MMOs were originally WoW or EQ Clones.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Judasace

[Seed22]

12 minutes ago, Diantane said:

Maybe the developers nerfed being able to collect loot at the door and that hit non-damaging characters as well.

 

If I get an equal share of the loot, then why did I only get 60k inf and 3 TO's after 7 hours of doing tons of missions with a group of 5-8 players? If they got the same, then all of those characters will go broke and stop playing the game because their character can't perform correctly.

 

I've got about 30 characters with a maximum level of 26. Most of them have less than 3,000 influence. The highest has about 50,000. The game just doesn't give rewards very well anymore.

I’ve got 26 50s each with over 200mil inf builds. Some with 650+mil inf builds without no life’ing. Get to 50. You’ll see this is egregiously wrong

[Seed22]

1 minute ago, Judasace said:

City of Heroes. Also, Asheron's call.

 

These games were not built with the Holy Trinity in mind. They don't work that way. You're like a tourist visiting another country and screaming "They don't do it that way in MY country, you backwards buffoons."

 

I can and have sone entire +4 TFs with a mix of scrapper and blasters. I've even done them with all blasters.

 

Not all MMOs were originall WoW or EQ Clones.

Plus CoH came out before WoW. Cant be a clone literally lol. Well, the WoW we know today that is

Edited September 7, 2020 by Seed22

[Grouchybeast]

32 minutes ago, Diantane said:

I've got about 30 characters with a maximum level of 26. Most of them have less than 3,000 influence. The highest has about 50,000. The game just doesn't give rewards very well anymore.

Are you using XP boosters from the P2W vendor?  Because it really sounds like you're using XP boosters if you're getting into the 20s with that little inf.

 

ETA: You should have some free respecs on your higher level characters that you can use to change your tank into a more effective build.  In fact, if you're still skeptical about the need for a tank to take their attacks, you can use you second build on any character over level ten to test it out.

 

35 minutes ago, Diantane said:

If a tank is not concentrating on his job, part or all of the team could wipe. You name me any mmo where a tank can go off and kill stuff like a DPS without wiping the team.

This feels like a trick question...

 

This is a game where blasters can soft-cap themselves on defense, and can solo spawns meant for full teams.  People solo Task Forces on support characters.  It's very much not 'any MMO'.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Grouchybeast

[Wobegone]

2 hours ago, Diantane said:

After playing my tank and running a team for seven hours straight, I end up with 60,000 influence and 3 TO's. How could I possibly enhance my character with this pitiful return? Most of my slots are empty and the rest have level 15 IO's (this at security level 26). This isn't going to work. My dedicated tank that everyone loved...... has failed. He won't be able to perform as he once did. To protect the team from almost all incoming damage.

Wait....what were you running?  Any story arcs or Task Forces in that 7 hours?  If so you'll have reward merits you can use to make money.  You also don't mention salvage or recipes, have you checked those?   

[EmmySky]

I think CoH is very much NOT 'any MMO' and if you come into it thinking of it as you would other games, you will be parked behind the 8 ball.

 

I leveled several of my toons with 2xp and just street sweeping (no end of mish/arc bonus).  I sell dropped enhancements and white salvage and recipes to a vendor and I sell yellow and orange (and purple) salvage and recipes at the auction house.  By doing this my girls would have anywhere from 5 million to 20 million influence by level 20.  

 

Running missions is very much NOT a primary means of gaining influence, especially if you run with any xp boosters.  Specializing builds is fine so long as you are familiar with game mechanics and such.

 

Good luck and happy hunting!

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

1 hour ago, Diantane said:

If a tank is not concentrating on his job, part or all of the team could wipe. You name me any mmo where a tank can go off and kill stuff like a DPS without wiping the team.

 

LOTRO, WOW, etc. A tank is a tank - period! (unless just solo leveling)

 

The tank must keep other defenseless characters safe (blasters, PB, MM, defenders, controllers, etc. Plus melee that put most into their DPS (no defense)).

Ok maybe you truly are really new around here, but let me explain something to you, none of the ATs you list above are defenseless. A troller uses control effects to lock down groups, well made and played ones solo at a very high dif setting just fine.

 

Blasters, are walking death. Almost every blaster 2ndary has a very good amount of sustain in it  now days, My own main blaster is often tanking things that kill tanks and brutes on my teams with him.

 

PB... You think PB are squishy? PB as in perma light form walking nuke factory of doom? You do know PB have the same dmg res cap as tanks, can achieve that on all dmg types cept psi with a single click power that can easily be made perma, and still do nuker levels of dmg right? Not to mention just being on a team will grant them extra dmg or dmg res depending on the team make up.

 

And scrappers,stalkers, brutes have plenty solid defense without costing them in dmg. In fact in coh its generally better to focus ones set bonuses and pool power choices on expanding one out of the box so to speak. Not doing the hyper focus on one thing kinda thing.

 

The best tanks in CoH are those who go the incredible hulk route. Just taunt alone does not have enough taunt power to taunt things off a real dps build.  And a real tank will wipe things before they can wipe his team. You do understand that just hitting things taunts with a tank in coh right? like that is their inherent ability. In fact punchvoking is way way way more effective then the active taunt powers by a huge margin, especially if your actually hitting hard.

 

 

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

1 hour ago, Diantane said:

Maybe the developers nerfed being able to collect loot at the door and that hit non-damaging characters as well.

 

If I get an equal share of the loot, then why did I only get 60k inf and 3 TO's after 7 hours of doing tons of missions with a group of 5-8 players? If they got the same, then all of those characters will go broke and stop playing the game because their character can't perform correctly.

 

I've got about 30 characters with a maximum level of 26. Most of them have less than 3,000 influence. The highest has about 50,000. The game just doesn't give rewards very well anymore.

Well as is always mentioned in any advice thread about earning funds, its all about max level. The earning ratio in the game is abysmal at low levels, unless you using reward merits as a way to earn funds, at lower levels yeah it can be hard even to keep just at level SOs on a build, something folks who didnt play way way way back in the long long ago may have forgotten.

 

Here are some tips, level 15 common IOs are pretty cheap to make, and never go red. They offer a modest but decent base % that a poor new player can get real use from, as poor man perma IOs while gaining the funds for a richer build.

 

And no I can assure you making inf is easier then ever, you just need to learn how.

 

So first bit of advice, focus on 1 toon, get them to cap, and use them to fund your alt habit. We all do that around here for the most part.

 

The 2nd bit, would be to stop arguing with us, and listen to us. If you want help, if you want to make friends, and get along. Then stamping your feet and sticking your fingers in your ears while telling us we dont know better when we all clearly do is not going to make you any allies around here.

[Nemu]

3 hours ago, Diantane said:

When playing COH I've noticed holes in the Pickup Groups (PUG). Players keep losing their characters to the hospital or rez's when available. New Defenders that are playing their character like a weak blaster and not concentrating on their character's primary skill set. Tanks also do the same. Lots of attacks but can't "tank" very well.

 

So I created a few "dedicated" characters. Like a tank that is built for defense only. One that can take the punishment of an alpha strike. Only had the weak, unslotted, unused first attack and the strong and slotted taunt skill. Also had tough, weave, combat jumping (7 defense toggles in all). This one was a Willpower tank.

 

Also when I play defenders, It is focused on the primary skills (not the weak blaster). He is complete support to the team.

 

Here's the problem. The way the mechanics of the game works (that I have noticed), is that you get little to no influence or loot unless you are causing DAMAGE! After playing my tank and running a team for seven hours straight, I end up with 60,000 influence and 3 TO's. How could I possibly enhance my character with this pitiful return? Most of my slots are empty and the rest have level 15 IO's (this at security level 26). This isn't going to work. My dedicated tank that everyone loved...... has failed. He won't be able to perform as he once did. To protect the team from almost all incoming damage.

 

Now to help fix this problem I am starting to train offensive skills (the higher tier ones), but it will be a long road ahead because I can't enhance them very well. My skills won't have the correct level IO's until 35 or 40 should i decide to play him at all. It might be better to make a DPS character and die a thousand times due to the "holes" in the group.

The dedicated approach is something a lot of new players have gone through. During the early days of CoH on live I saw plenty of 1 attack tanks and defenders. Prior to the introduction of punchvoke and IOs that sort of approach made a little bit more sense than it does now.

 

Tanks specifically have a few tools to keep aggro - taunt, taunt auras, and punchvoke via hitting stuff with attacks. The first two are obvious and the punchvoke is basically taunt built into your attacks.  The aura is for keeping things huddled around you, punchvoke is usually for keeping hard targets focused on you together with your taunt aura, and taunt is to keep stuff you can't reach focused on you. Once you learn how to move you can joust punchvoke to temporarily keep stuff focused on you even when they are out of melee range. This is particularly useful when there are adds and you are already occupied by one group. Taking attacks also allow you to solo should you feel like it, otherwise you'd be dependent on teams to level up. In addition, some attacks have secondary effects such as stun or knockdown that can keep you and your team safe.

 

Melee ATs have a hard time during the lower-mid levels without support. This is particularly evident for new players operating on limited influence and on Dual/Single origin enhancements. Leveling is slow if you are not using xp boosters and despite receiving influence, the influence you do get from mobs/mission completion are not scaled high enough for you to afford the constant upgrade of Dual/single origin enhancements, let alone IOs. However, if you take the time to learn the basics of the market you can still make enough influence to kit yourself out even at lower levels. Do taskforces to earn reward merits and use those merits to buy enhancement converters. Then either sell those converters at the auction house to get some seed money, or keep some of them them craft the yellow/orange recipe drops, especially those below level 30, and use the converters to convert those IOs into ones that sell for more. Once you make enough money you can start outfitting your build with attuned IOs. For those IOs that have a higher level requirement fill the gap by using standard invention IOs until you hit the minimum required level. IO sets and set bonuses will drastically alter performance and the current game is played around those IO sets. Once you get a 50 you can start bankrolling your alts, it'll get a lot easier from that point on.

 

With a little bit of research and work you can make sure that your first characters have an enjoyable journey to 50. Go to the AT forums and ask for play/build advice, read the guides on market on how to make influence. If you run into a wall those are only temporary and most of the walls in this game can be solved by money, make an alt, do something different, then come back to that character after you make enough influence to progress on.

 

Also, winning a few costume contests is a good way to get money to kit your characters out. That's a fun mini game too. I find that I am more attached to characters I make with a good costume or a good backstory.

 

 

[Diantane]

2 hours ago, Seed22 said:

I’ve got 26 50s each with over 200mil inf builds. Some with 650+mil inf builds without no life’ing. Get to 50. You’ll see this is egregiously wrong

The problem is getting to 50 with low level enhancements on my character. All I can afford is level 15 IO's in 32% of the slots (the rest are empty) on my security level 26.

Edited September 7, 2020 by Diantane

[Diantane]

I lot of good info Nemu and very interesting. Will take me a long while to learn/experience all this.

[InvaderStych]

2 hours ago, Diantane said:

I've got about 30 characters with a maximum level of 26. Most of them have less than 3,000 influence. The highest has about 50,000.

 

Ok.  Can I offer some advice?  Take a toon to 50.  While doing that check out some of the links I'm going to drop as well.

 

First, I know a lot of people in this thread have thrown around terms like "Soft-Capped Blaster," to try to demonstrate that this isn't a "Holy Trinity: Herd Them Mobs and NEVER DEVIATE FROM YOUR CLASS ROLE" type of game.  But I'm not going to do that, because there's a more important point here:

 

The beauty of this game is, and always was, that it is exactly not that.  There are some extremely difficult challenges (Master Runs, etc) at higher level TFs and Trials where you'll see more strategic play - but outside that it's just not really that critical stick to some sort of arbitrary definition of "class."

 

Here is a very good link to check out.

 

 

 

As to earning "inf," I know your experience thus far feels amiss, but as others have said the "inf" game here in the Cities is all about getting something to 50 and building from there.  The amount of influence gained (and by extension xp) has - as far as I know - and never has been tied to damage dealt.  This is why "Door Sitting" works and why you see so many people asking for farms on their lowbies in LFG channels.  It's also one of the reasons that people will dual-box and farm their own alts.

 

Hell, I don't really run farms, but I do frequently solo arcs at +2x8 on my scrapper.  If you're on Excelsior you're more than welcome to bring in a lowbie to door-sit a few of my missions as a demonstration.  And that will pale in comparison to the gains you'd get with a better player running +4x8 while you ate pizza and drank beer at the door.

 

Further, the value of pretty much everything is so ludicrously higher at 50 than it is at 20.  Get a toon to 50, do that task force that drops a purple the first (and only the first) time a toon completes it (Market Crash, iirc).  Even if you don't craft and convert for max value, just selling the recipe itself is an easy 10mil+

 

Hell, the common IO recipe sale prices at Vendors/Quartermasters are, figuratively speaking, exponentially higher at 50 than they are at 20.  Not even kidding.  Setting aside extreme farming or high-focus marketeering, it is still trivially simple gain plenty inf these days.  Even with only 2 50s, holding +/- 50mil across the account doesn't take too much beyond just playing content and selling drops in the right place. 

 

When I first discovered Homecoming this Guide was immensely helpful in building initial funds on my first toon's journey to 50. 

I give this guide the highest recommendation in terms of alieviating your current pain-points.  If you only read one guide linked in this post, make it this one:

 

 

If farming and/or playing the market are your things, there are great guides down the way.  Here are a couple:

 

 

 

But in all seriousness.  Pick one of your toons, and see it through to lvl 50.  The low level game is just not even remotely representative of the Potential of the Cities.

 

13 minutes ago, Diantane said:

The problem is getting to 50 with low level enhancements on my character. All I can afford is level 15 IO's in 32% of the slots (the rest are empty) on my security level 26.

 

Less of a problem than you would think.  Once you get past that "First 50" hurdle you'll notice that enhancing at low levels (unless you're building with attuned sets that you intend to keep) is rarely worth doing.

 

Join a few teams doing Task Forces - usually a few 50s looking to the the Accolade on the team anyway so don't worry about being "fully enhanced" or "carrying weight."  More likely than not the team will steam-roll anyway.  And you can turn the Merits into Money.  There's a good guide on that too down in the Guides section.  If the Weekly Strike Targets are in your level range, do them.  More Merits = More Money.

 

Finally, never be afraid to ask for help in real time in the Help channel in game.  Lots of folks more than happy to answer questions or help with a challenging mission.

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by InvaderStych

[Troo]

2 hours ago, Diantane said:

You name me any mmo where a tank can go off and kill stuff like a DPS without wiping the team.

City of Heroes/City of Villains - easy and ironic.

 

Perhaps someone thinks they are doing it correctly. When results are lacking it is important to consider all possibilities even that the issue could be standing in the mirror.

 

Good players, tanks and defenders especially are highly prized. Really good ones do more that just play meat shield, damage sponge or heal buff bot.

 

 

 

fyi - Single Origin enhancements might (they are) be better at lower levels and less expensive on the market.

15 minutes ago, Diantane said:

The problem is getting to 50 with low level enhancements on my character. All I can afford is level 15 IO's in 40% of the slots (the rest are empty) on my security level 26.

 

Edited September 7, 2020 by Troo

[Bill Z Bubba]

@InvaderStychI really wouldn't mind at all for that post to be stickied somewhere. Great info and thank you for the time you spent on it.

[Troo]

I agree with Billz.

 

There is so much information out there, new player guides should be easiest to find.