The Missing Incarnate Powers

[boundgirlie]

My question is simple but first i apologize if this has been asked before.  The missing incarnate powers, from Mind, to Vitae +which i can't find a thing on+, Omega, etc...what were each supposed to do and will we see one or more in Homecoming?

[FoulVileTerror]

I don't think we ever even got an answer in the AMAs on what they'd do exactly.  As for Homecoming's plans for those?  I imagine they're only at the cocktail napkin phase right now.  We probably have a very long way to go before the next one hits.

Sorry that I don't have anything more solid for you.

[Greycat]

Yeah, I'll second that. I don't think we ever got an answer on what they were going to be / do.

[Vanden]

I'm pretty sure even Paragon Studios didn't know what the rest of the slots were gonna be. One of the devs said there were gonna be "patch" powers, like Tar Patch or Ice Slick, but incarnate level, but beyond that the other slots were probably no more developed than ideas on a whiteboard.

[Derek Icelord]

The OG devs did answer this, at least partially, in an AMA or two. I wouldn't hold my breath on seeing them in Homecoming, however.

 

https://hcwiki.cityofheroes.dev/wiki/Lore_AMA

 

A relevant snippet:
 

Spoiler

 

What were the next few incarnate slots going to be?

JAH: Genesis was coming next, and the basic concept for the slot was creating “patches” or fields that buffed allies and debuffed foes. The Core branches of Genesis powers would get larger areas of effect, while the Radius branches would let you make up to 4 small patches at once at the very rare level. Imagine Sleet or Tar Patch + Accelerate Metabolism or Regeneration Aura + Incarnate-worthy, and you’re on the right track.

 

 

[Coyotedancer]

Even if we had solid ideas about what they were meant to do, a very vocal minority here on Homecoming would have absolute running duck FITS if any more iPowers were ever released.... They're Very Concerned about power-creep, and seem convinced that the current set have managed to "ruin the game". Adding even more powers would just be dire to someone with that point of view. 

[MTeague]

14 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

Even if we had solid ideas about what they were meant to do, a very vocal minority here on Homecoming would have absolute running duck FITS if any more iPowers were ever released.... They're Very Concerned about power-creep, and seem convinced that the current set have managed to "ruin the game". Adding even more powers would just be dire to someone with that point of view. 

I'd be totally fine with Incarnate powers if they were only available in content that was created in the same issue or after incarnate powers were created.

That is to say, not available, and not in effect, not even your alpha, in most 45-50 content. 

I'm well aware that the majority (or at least a vocal subset) the players Completely disagrees with me on that.

I'm well aware that where which incarnates are in effect, is Highly Improbable to ever change. 

 

My solution to that is I solo the vast majority of 45-50 content.

I just don't join most lvl 50 teams unless they really ARE doing truly incarnate content.  And no, I do not count ITF's there. 

I'll do a low level ITF, run by people at 35-44, gladly.  I do not join at 45-50 ITF.  Even if that means people look at me like I have three heads.

 

If even more incarnate powers were added... not gonna lie, I'd think it was a compounded travesty if they were also made available at 45+.

But since I already have my own solution to that, I can no longer summon the Hulk Smash rage.

[Riverdusk]

On 9/16/2020 at 2:31 PM, MTeague said:

I'd be totally fine with Incarnate powers if they were only available in content that was created in the same issue or after incarnate powers were created.

That is to say, not available, and not in effect, not even your alpha, in most 45-50 content. 

I'm well aware that the majority (or at least a vocal subset) the players Completely disagrees with me on that.

I'm well aware that where which incarnates are in effect, is Highly Improbable to ever change. 

 

My solution to that is I solo the vast majority of 45-50 content.

I just don't join most lvl 50 teams unless they really ARE doing truly incarnate content.  And no, I do not count ITF's there. 

I'll do a low level ITF, run by people at 35-44, gladly.  I do not join at 45-50 ITF.  Even if that means people look at me like I have three heads.

 

If even more incarnate powers were added... not gonna lie, I'd think it was a compounded travesty if they were also made available at 45+.

But since I already have my own solution to that, I can no longer summon the Hulk Smash rage.

Kind of the same feeling I have.  I don't mind incarnate powers or even more of them if they were for content that was more set up for them.  Everyone having them for taking down a bunch of council in a radio mission gets to be just a bit of overkill.  ☠️

[Andreah]

13 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

Kind of the same feeling I have.  I don't mind incarnate powers or even more of them if they were for content that was more set up for them.  Everyone having them for taking down a bunch of council in a radio mission gets to be just a bit of overkill.  ☠️

It would not be unreasonable or even unprecedented for new incarnate powers to have their main, most potent effect in actual incarnate content.

 

I'm happy with things as they are however.

 

And if an incarnate power just gave me a bonus seventh slot in any one of my existing primary of secondary set powers, I'd take that too.

[Bill Z Bubba]

For me, the easiest and most impactful thing we could do with incarnate powers is dump the levels shifts. Completely. They make a mockery of incarnate content. Be set at +4, get rewards for +4, fight +1s. Kind of a joke. Yea, even the +1 in everything from alpha. Nuke it.

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

For me, the easiest and most impactful thing we could do with incarnate powers is dump the levels shifts. Completely. They make a mockery of incarnate content. Be set at +4, get rewards for +4, fight +1s. Kind of a joke. Yea, even the +1 in everything from alpha. Nuke it.

Eh. I don't mind the alpha +1 everywhere - it's sort of a nice "you made it, have a cookie." The rest? Given they kept cranking levels up in the incarnate content, I don't mind that the shifts we have only show up there past alpha. And +3 as the cap for that... fine. The powers, though, those (IMHO) should only have full potency in incarnate content, if they have any availability. Judgement? Max 5 targets. Lore? Strong as patron pets. Just so they don't overwhelm the AT-specific powers.

[Luminara]

On 9/12/2020 at 11:29 PM, boundgirlie said:

My question is simple but first i apologize if this has been asked before.  The missing incarnate powers, from Mind, to Vitae +which i can't find a thing on+, Omega, etc...what were each supposed to do and will we see one or more in Homecoming?

 

I wanted Castle to make the Omega ability summon an army of ducks, with little wiggly tails and with laser beam eyes.  I don't know why, but I suspect he may not have taken my request as seriously as it was tendered.

[Omega-202]

Obviously power creep would be a concern for any new incarnate powers, but what if any further incarnate powers came with a debuff to compensate?

 

Lets say the Omega slot works like the Alpha slot, with full ED immunity and different stat combos, but in exchange, it cancels the Alpha level shift, putting you back at 50?

 

Or Vitae would grant a Hybrid-like toggle that upped one stat at the sacrifice of another while active, with a short duration (30-60s).  Like one would grant 25% resist, but -3000% regen, so you might survive a burst better, but you couldn't sustain it.  Or +60% damage but -1000% recovery, so you can fire off a burst but you'd floor your endurance almost immediately.  

 

If they want to stick with Genesis being patches, then just give them a 4s animation.  Boom, nobody will want to use them.  

[FoulVileTerror]

I'd propose that the next step of Incarnate-level Threats be introduced first.

Then, after that, introduce the step after that!

-ONLY THEN- would I introduce the next wave of player Incarnate Powers.

Always keep one level of undefeatable threat looming in the background.  Players can throw themselves at if if they'd like, but give them plenty of warning that it's the threat that's presently beyond their power.  -Maybe- you'll get some dedicated teams who manage to pull it off on occasion, but really . . . doesn't that just add to the mystique of it all?

[Ironblade]

1 hour ago, FoulVileTerror said:

Always keep one level of undefeatable threat looming in the background.  Players can throw themselves at if if they'd like, but give them plenty of warning that it's the threat that's presently beyond their power.  -Maybe- you'll get some dedicated teams who manage to pull it off on occasion, but really . . . doesn't that just add to the mystique of it all?

The Really Hard Way badge was supposed to be like that - impossible until we got additional power.  But we did it anyway.

[golstat2003]

4 hours ago, FoulVileTerror said:

I'd propose that the next step of Incarnate-level Threats be introduced first.

Then, after that, introduce the step after that!

-ONLY THEN- would I introduce the next wave of player Incarnate Powers.

Always keep one level of undefeatable threat looming in the background.  Players can throw themselves at if if they'd like, but give them plenty of warning that it's the threat that's presently beyond their power.  -Maybe- you'll get some dedicated teams who manage to pull it off on occasion, but really . . . doesn't that just add to the mystique of it all?

If it's so hard only one dedicated team can ever do it you might as well not add it to the game as I'd consider that a MONUMENTAL waste of developer resources.

 

Which an extremely important resource at this time.

 

EDIT: I'm fine with us never getting any more incarnate content. I think they have more important areas of the game to fill up. I'm not fine with ANY suggestion that reduces the ones we have in any way. Full stop.

Edited September 19, 2020 by golstat2003

[ninja surprise]

On 9/18/2020 at 4:45 PM, FoulVileTerror said:

I'd propose that the next step of Incarnate-level Threats be introduced first.

 

 

I was thinking a flag gets set - remember how in the old days if you had a Kheldian on your team the mission could spawn Cysts, Voids, and those dudes with the Kheld-killer guns? 

If there's Incarnates on the team it gets flagged for random AVs or Giant Monsters. And the more Incarnates the higher chance of them spawning.

 

People be doing their wimpy Council radio missions in PI and get to the final room to find Lusca 8-)

[FoulVileTerror]

Not a bad idea, @ninja surprise.  Incarnates attracting Incarnate-level threats.  Of course, they would need to be careful about implementing something of that nature.  There is no shortage of players who do enjoy playing as Incarnates against non-Incarnate content.  So, perhaps, if this were an optional difficulty/Notoriety setting, with suitable rewards to incentivize those who wanted to enable it.

[Coyotedancer]

Also, it would have to take team size into account. Not every character with Incarnate powers is capable of soloing an AV or GM... Even a duo or trio might not be able to, depending on the sets, builds and ATs of the characters.

 

Not every single Incarnate out there is a game-stomping over-geared god.

[FoulVileTerror]

I wonder if they could implement a series of Badges which essentially document how often and how easily a player-character demolishes an Archvillain or Giant Monster.

And then, based on which Badges an individual character has earnt, throw the bigger-badders at them accordingly.

Would need some way to reset the Badges, though, in case someone Respecs or has their Power Sets nerfed and can no longer meet their previously held levels.

[Solarverse]

9 minutes ago, FoulVileTerror said:

I wonder if they could implement a series of Badges which essentially document how often and how easily a player-character demolishes an Archvillain or Giant Monster.

And then, based on which Badges an individual character has earnt, throw the bigger-badders at them accordingly.

Would need some way to reset the Badges, though, in case someone Respecs or has their Power Sets nerfed and can no longer meet their previously held levels.

I like this idea. Makes me wonder how difficult it would be to implement code wise.

[Williwaw]

The 2013 AMA also had vague descriptions of Omega, and they'd be completely gamebreaking:

A) I’ve said this in a couple places but the primary trees which had been sketched out on paper were Arete (instant recharge on all powers for a period), Majesty (cause foes to instantly fight for you and then self-destruct), Infinity (summon doppelgangers of yourself), Transcendence (immune to everything and can attack into Phase), and Fulfillment (major PBAOE +Level Shifts) (Tim)

 

And, despite the name, Omega was not going to be the last one (also from the 2013 AMA):

There was no “final”, once Omega slot was reached that would be the new “Alpha” slot and 10 more Incarnate levels would appear above it. Getting the first 10 Incarnate powers would have been trivialized so the “new grind” would be the Omega-base tree. And then there was a tree after that, and one after that, etc. (Matt)

 

I don't think that would have been sustainable in the long run.   I'm not glad the game closed when it did or the way it did, but ... I don't know what the game would look like now had it continued, with dozens of Incarnate slots.

 

[FoulVileTerror]

Well said, @Williwaw.

Well said.

[Greycat]

3 hours ago, Williwaw said:

I don't think that would have been sustainable in the long run.   I'm not glad the game closed when it did or the way it did, but ... I don't know what the game would look like now had it continued, with dozens of Incarnate slots.

Ugh. Yeah, that pretty much would have killed the game for me. I was always glad the game grew "wider, not taller" - we got new zones, new abilities, new missions, but 50 was the cap. I wasn't *thrilled* with Incarnates, but with them stopping where they had, eh, fine, it's a bit more endgame stuff. That description sounds like "Typical MMO gear grind," which ... is why I didn't tend to play other MMOs. "Welp, you were level 70, now everything's up at level 80. Three months? It'll be level 90. We expect you to need level 200 soon..."

[Lines]

Agreed with above posts. Ending up with 10 or more incarnate powers - more than the 9 we get from power sets - would be the saddest way to expand the game.