Game Balance & The Endgame

[BrandX]

As someone who plays and loves Time Manipulation, I have to say, I wouldn't call it popular because of being powerful.  I'd call it popular because it offers great survival.  It can also be made to work with other concepts and not be "Time" related...even with it's name (though I known plenty who go "Concept can only be related to a sets name" :p)

 

I find Dark to be powerful, but even back on live, with toggle debuffs, I felt little use for them when a team is steam rolling content, but I find it a lot more useful when on those tough targets.

[MoonSheep]

On 9/21/2020 at 12:14 AM, zenblack said:

Problems I feel that need to be overcome as balance is strived for.

 

1.) The Incarnate system rigs 35+ stuff to obsolescence. There is no scaling, just full blown Incarnates destroying content intended to be 1/3(ish) of the game. This should be looked at and modified so that either the inclusion of unbounded Incarnates is considered or how much of the game needs to be operating under full Incarnate status.

 

2.) Raw Damage vs Mobs needs to be looked at, or more precisely the time it takes to kill certain types of enemies needs to favor more options (Debuff/Buff, Off-tanking). This can be done a few ways, but it needs to be addressed.

 

3.) Movement to a more tactical approach to encounters. This has a lot it needs to deal with, considering the hard control the game offers and it's tanking/aggro mechanism, but more importantly it needs to be in encounter design. There needs to be a reason to use control on select targets. There needs to be a variety of potential points of attack. There needs to be an addition and proliferation of different types of thematic units that provide these opportunities within each faction. It would also not hurt to have a look at some of the stealth mechanics and how they interact with mission goal(s) and what should be able to overcome them (this will probably need a finer gradient of perception/threat levels.

 

4.) A look at status and status protection/resistance to better enable interactions in party and enemy threat to a party. Having the greater majority of all status effects not matter is not good design and it doesn't allow enemies to leverage any advantage by giving them status attacks unless they are impossible to resist (see Mighty Roar).

 

All in all, this is a very large undertaking and I am glad HC team is communicating with us their desire to make a more enjoyable game that makes you feel heroic but at the same time earn that heroic experience.

Point 3 is very good and certainly something I’d be keen for the devs to see, perhaps they already have.

 

From my view, the key word that describes the development the game would benefit from is: inclusive.

 

e.g create mob types which need to be mezzed, or debuffed, or taunted, before they’re able to be easily killed. This would make certain ATs much more in-demand and ‘viable’ again

[Grouchybeast]

49 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

From my view, the key word that describes the development the game would benefit from is: inclusive.

 

e.g create mob types which need to be mezzed, or debuffed, or taunted, before they’re able to be easily killed. This would make certain ATs much more in-demand and ‘viable’ again

Although when being inclusive, it's nice to be inclusive of everyone, i.e. don't forget the people who like to solo.

[Monos King]

1 hour ago, Grouchybeast said:

Although when being inclusive, it's nice to be inclusive of everyone, i.e. don't forget the people who like to solo.

I'm sure even with something like what's suggested above +0/x1 and the like would still be a walk in the park. There probably wouldn't be anything to worry about  if installed practically.

[RageusQuitus2]

On 9/20/2020 at 4:32 PM, Bopper said:

Popularity does not matter. Performance does

Thats interesting that it so clearly outperforms but i dont see many in the wild.  What are the number of tw 50s.  Maybe it needs less a nerf and moar fun?  Maybe momentum isnt fun?  Ive never played it so ymmv.  But something is strange when a game of min/maxers dont play it...

[BZRKR]

27 minutes ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

Thats interesting that it so clearly outperforms but i dont see many in the wild.  What are the number of tw 50s.  Maybe it needs less a nerf and moar fun?  Maybe momentum isnt fun?  Ive never played it so ymmv.  But something is strange when a game of min/maxers dont play it...

My main is a Radiation/Titan Weapon Tanker, and I keep an eye (well, an ear) out for that weird sound Whirling Smash makes because I too don't see many other Titan Weapon users out there. I know that several of the folks I team with pretty regularly have made Titan Weapon characters, and while they may make it to 50, it seems that they go on the shelf. I will say that Momentum makes lower levels clanky-janky, but once you have all of your slots, and are stuffed to the gills with crafted IOs, you can really smash through a lot of enemies.

 

I'm interested to see what the "rework" for Titan Weapon turns out to be, and hope that the reduction in damage is paired with either a less restrictive momentum window or some other QoL improvement. One thing that I'm confident won't get nerfed is the taunt animation, which, in my opinion, is the best one in the game.

[Bill Z Bubba]

51 minutes ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

Thats interesting that it so clearly outperforms but i dont see many in the wild.  What are the number of tw 50s.  Maybe it needs less a nerf and moar fun?  Maybe momentum isnt fun?  Ive never played it so ymmv.  But something is strange when a game of min/maxers dont play it...

I min/max to a point. I don't play TW specifically because of the momentum mechanic. It's why I'll be not even remotely amused if that is the route they decide to go with EM. I do not like powers with more than one cast time. Makes building proper attack chains a PitA.

[ShardWarrior]

15 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

Regen Scrapper offers a pretty hands off experience with a self rez, self heals, and endurance management help and is powerful low to mid level while doing what you need high level. 

Given that most of the healing in Scrapper Regen comes from click heals, I am curious how you are defining "hands off"?

[ScarySai]

I might make a suggestion post on the topic later, but I figure more eyes are on this for now, and it's relevant.

 

One balance thing I'd like to see get a pass is to correct powers that were left out when a certain ability received a buff, but other instances of the same power were left out.

 

For example...

 

Tremor: Casts much faster in earth assault, all other versions are still slow.

 

Hurl Boulder: Great on earth assault, still awful in stone melee and in epic pools. Super strength could use this one, too.

 

Total Focus: Total focus and a few other abilities got a bit of a speed boost to make them actually worth taking, but this isn't consistently applied where applicable, such as with Peacebringer's Incandescent strike, which basically forces them to go with cross punch for a decent heavy hitter, yet this is very proc reliant.

 

Dark Melee & Warshades: Dark Melee had two very nice buffs back when Paragon was running things: Soul drain's buff became front-loaded, and siphon life became a much more heavy hitting attack, yet neither of the Warshade mirror abilities got this (Both versions of mire still operate without the front-loaded buff and essence drain still hits like wet noodles without procs.)

Edited September 22, 2020 by ScarySai

[CaptainLupis]

3 hours ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

Thats interesting that it so clearly outperforms but i dont see many in the wild.  What are the number of tw 50s.  Maybe it needs less a nerf and moar fun?  Maybe momentum isnt fun?  Ive never played it so ymmv.  But something is strange when a game of min/maxers dont play it...

The issue with TW is they are monsters at 50, but they are just not fun to level (in my experience). That's fine if you are PLing them to 50, but not if you are playing them to get there. I expect there are a LOT of shelved TWs out there, which is not what the devs will want to see as there are enough people bypassing content to get to 50 as it is without giving them more reasons to do it.

[Bopper]

3 hours ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

Thats interesting that it so clearly outperforms but i dont see many in the wild.  What are the number of tw 50s.  Maybe it needs less a nerf and moar fun?  Maybe momentum isnt fun?  Ive never played it so ymmv.  But something is strange when a game of min/maxers dont play it...

The set is not for everyone. The level up process is painful as you don't have the accuracy to have a reliable rotation. You think you have one slow attack followed by 4-5 fast attacks, but that first slow attack misses and now you have another slow attack, and maybe another.

 

Also, endurance is drained quickly with momentum attacks using up considerable amounts of attacks within a short period of time. That's hard to deal with while leveling up.

 

There is also the restriction (mentally induced) that has you wanting to use TW whenever Momentum is up, so you don't want to use powers outside that. This makes for pairing with less clicky armor sets (or find armor sets that are endurance friendly to address the previous paragraph).

 

So, there are reasons for why TW is not popular with everyone. It requires a learning curve and some late level development to start seeing the set blossom into the strongest melee offensive set the game offers (I believe claws and war mace are next in line at the top, but are still far behind TW). There are other reasons too for lack of popularity, but I'm not trying to turn this into a dissertation or anything.

[ScarySai]

It's also another reason it pairs so well with bio. Efficiency adaptation lets you go into full swing a lot earlier than pretty much any other set with TW. Once you get to 50 and have all the incarns and IOs to help keep endurance under control, switching to offensive mode becomes a big power boost, despite it's drawbacks if you aren't mindful of them.

[Floridian]

The Teleport Pool could use some serious love.   The Cross-Zone Teleport power is so slow... I can jump to my SG Base, use its teleporter, and arrive at my destination before my girlfriend can using her *own teleportation ability* to go to the same place.  Recall and Group Teleport could use a range increase as well as a casting-speed buff.  Early on... by the time I was close enough for her to recall, I would often reach her by the time she finished casting. 

 

I remember using teleport foe fairly often during Live to separate out the hard targets from their crowds, but I don't really see that these days.  Considering the meta of picking hover or combat jumping for it's defense bonus (and tasty defense enhancements)... maybe a 'blinking' defense toggle could be a better power?  I know that one is pushing it, but Gosh it sounds cool.

 

(Edit: Spelling)

Edited September 22, 2020 by Floridian

[arcane]

12 hours ago, BrandX said:

As someone who plays and loves Time Manipulation, I have to say, I wouldn't call it popular because of being powerful.  I'd call it popular because it offers great survival.  It can also be made to work with other concepts and not be "Time" related...even with it's name (though I known plenty who go "Concept can only be related to a sets name" :p)

 

I find Dark to be powerful, but even back on live, with toggle debuffs, I felt little use for them when a team is steam rolling content, but I find it a lot more useful when on those tough targets.

The ease with which Time plus power boost currently perma-soft caps defense with few to no toggles and then has the vast majority of the remaining build to slot for offense makes it pretty incredibly powerful and easymode right now IMO.

[ScarySai]

The PB + farsight thing is definitely powerful, but it's far from the main selling point of the set. It's very good control and mitigation. 

 

They could remove the interaction tomorrow and my ice/time corruptor would still be ridiculous.

[arcane]

Yeah I’m not remotely worried about my time/water or fire/time feeling underpowered, so the potential change seems fair to me.

[BrandX]

2 minutes ago, arcaneholocaust said:

The ease with which Time plus power boost currently perma-soft caps defense with few to no toggles and then has the vast majority of the remaining build to slot for offense makes it pretty incredibly powerful and easymode right now IMO.

 

I think that's the point right there.  You don't look at Time Manipulation.  You look at Time Manipulation with specific powers.  Power Boost?  You just limited what powersets to take, to get it to that point, and I promise you, not everyone who takes Time Manipulation, is taking Power Boost.

 

What is that, one Epic for Defenders, Controllers and Corruptors to take?  I don't believe Masterminds have access to it.  It also has 1 toggle, and then a bunch of clickies, that generally, people prefer toggles, and the toggle is turned off if Held/Stunned/Slept and it gives no Defense, just some -toHit, that the character has to have the enemy in the middle of or at least on the edge of.

 

So, you're thinking is, people willing to limit themselves to one Epic Pool, make the set powerful?  Then change the Epic Pool power 😛

[BrandX]

8 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

The PB + farsight thing is definitely powerful, but it's far from the main selling point of the set. It's very good control and mitigation. 

 

They could remove the interaction tomorrow and my ice/time corruptor would still be ridiculous.

And saying that, is with Incarnates involved?

[ScarySai]

Just now, BrandX said:

And saying that, is with Incarnates involved?

Epic pool variants of power boost and such, as well.

[Judasace]

This is a 16 year old game with a few thousand player, run on a private server surviving on donations. The game is used as a sandbox for people to play superheroes...the idea that this is some AAA live service game that needs balancing, nerfing, etc. is laughable. Stuff should be left alone. Want to make new stuff? Great. Want to f\get caught up in fiddling with the old stuff? all it will do is drive people away...it's not like new people are showing up or ever going to show up, just look at concurrent user numbers, account numbers, etc. There's been a 65% drop since HC went live.

 

Nerfs in 16 year old cancelled MMO.../smdh.

[Rambolazer]

On 9/20/2020 at 1:19 PM, The Curator said:

how +special buffs interact with long duration +def powers,

YES! I've always thought it was extremely overpowered that power boost affects certain powers like time manipulation's Farsight and other sets it has almost no effect.

 

Love the goals and communication! Thank you!

[Ruin Mage]

1 minute ago, Judasace said:

Stuff should be left alone.

That's a bad argument - just because it's a cancelled MMO doesn't mean that tweaking the numbers behind power sets and re-looking at mechanics should be avoided. In fact, it might help set out HC from other servers. If you want purity of the game as it was, there is a server or two for that. But HC clearly doesn't want to keep to the same tracks that the live devs were. Which is a-okay - this is their server.

 

3 minutes ago, Judasace said:

the idea that this is some AAA live service game

Other games that aren't AAA live service games still get balance passes.

[zenblack]

1 hour ago, ScarySai said:

It's also another reason it pairs so well with bio. Efficiency adaptation lets you go into full swing a lot earlier than pretty much any other set with TW. Once you get to 50 and have all the incarns and IOs to help keep endurance under control, switching to offensive mode becomes a big power boost, despite it's drawbacks if you aren't mindful of them.

Let's not be sly. Bio Armor is the best of the armor sets overall (not that there are not other sets who do certain things better) and the only one to offer a lot of great things in one package.

 

Adaptability (play how you want or the situation demands) with Offensive being a huge factor of why it pairs well with anything. -Res included, not just available by proc is good no matter where it is. Hybrid defenses, allowing it to be actually decent across all 3 AT's instead of lopsided to Tanker builds (who want defense too, but at least they can leverage their Resist bonus). Heal. Universal secondary defense in more than 1 power (Absorb). Combo Endurance/Max HP power, most are not so lucky. End Drain resistance (very valuable) and good slotting with a good T9.

 

Most armor sets can boast a few of these, only Bio can do it all. Some are closer than others, EA for example, but Bio is king.

Edited September 22, 2020 by zenblack

[ScarySai]

Evolving armor and offensive form are the main reasons it does so well damage-wise. In terms of being an unkillable badass; Radiation, dark armor, energy aura, ice armor and elec armor beat bio pretty handily.

 

What makes bio interesting are it's layered defenses, absorbs, recovery and regen while still having a pretty potent boost in offense. I'm sure it'll get attention eventually, though I hope the set's identity would remain intact. 

Edited September 22, 2020 by ScarySai

[Bill Z Bubba]

Based on several posts on this page, looks like Power Boost is a problem but that really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that uses it.

 

I only have one request for all future changes/balances/buffs/nerfs/etc... can I get in closed testing? 🙂