Whips? Choices for a Demon MM

Runebound · September 27, 2020

tl;dr: Lash or Crack Whip or Corruption, or none?

Many builds on the forum skip those direct damage abilities. I see why: the damage isn't great, and the range is short enough to tempt you into trouble.

But one thoughtful player suggested Crack Whip for Demons/Time based on its debuff, details below. Is that helpful?

Spoiler

Villain Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.7.2.10
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Demons Time: Level 50 Magic Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Demon Summoning
Secondary Power Set: Time Manipulation
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Flight
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Corruption

(A) Superior Winter's Bite - Accuracy/Damage
(34) Superior Winter's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
(40) Superior Winter's Bite - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
(40) Superior Winter's Bite - Damage/Endurance/Accuracy/RechargeTime
(42) Superior Winter's Bite - Recharge/Chance for -Speed & -Recharge

Level 1: Time Crawl

(A) Accuracy IO

Level 2: Summon Demonlings

(A) Superior Mark of Supremacy - Accuracy/Damage
(3) Superior Mark of Supremacy - Endurance/Pet +Resist +Regen
(3) Overwhelming Force - Accuracy/Damage
(17) Call to Arms - Defense Bonus Aura for Pets
(31) Soulbound Allegiance - Chance for Build Up
(33) Overwhelming Force - Damage/Chance for Knockdown/Knockback to Knockdown

Level 4: Temporal Mending

(A) Preventive Medicine - Heal
(5) Preventive Medicine - Heal/Endurance
(5) Preventive Medicine - Endurance/RechargeTime
(7) Preventive Medicine - Heal/RechargeTime
(7) Preventive Medicine - Heal/RechargeTime/Endurance
(9) Preventive Medicine - Chance for +Absorb

Level 6: Enchant Demon

(A) Endurance Reduction IO

Level 8: Crack Whip

(A) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage
(9) Positron's Blast - Damage/Endurance
(11) Positron's Blast - Damage/Range
(11) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
(15) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy)
(43) Force Feedback - Chance for +Recharge

Level 10: Time's Juncture

(A) Dark Watcher's Despair - To Hit Debuff
(25) Dark Watcher's Despair - To Hit Debuff/Recharge
(25) Dark Watcher's Despair - To Hit Debuff/Recharge/Endurance
(34) Dark Watcher's Despair - To Hit Debuff/Endurance

Level 12: Summon Demons

(A) Superior Mark of Supremacy - Damage
(13) Superior Mark of Supremacy - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
(13) Sovereign Right - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
(15) Sovereign Right - Resistance Bonus
(33) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%
(34) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All)

Level 14: Temporal Selection

(A) Doctored Wounds - Heal/Endurance
(36) Doctored Wounds - Heal/Recharge
(37) Doctored Wounds - Heal/Endurance/Recharge
(37) Doctored Wounds - Heal
(37) Doctored Wounds - Recharge

Level 16: Distortion Field

(A) Tempered Readiness - Range/Slow
(17) Tempered Readiness - Endurance/Recharge/Slow
(50) Lockdown - Chance for +2 Mag Hold

Level 18: Hell on Earth

(A) Superior Command of the Mastermind - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
(19) Superior Command of the Mastermind - Damage/Endurance/Recharge
(19) Superior Command of the Mastermind - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance/Recharge
(21) Superior Command of the Mastermind - Recharge/Pet +AoE Defense Aura
(45) Expedient Reinforcement - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
(45) Expedient Reinforcement - Resist Bonus Aura for Pets

Level 20: Hasten

(A) Recharge Reduction IO
(21) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 22: Maneuvers

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
(23) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
(23) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed

Level 24: Combat Jumping

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed

Level 26: Summon Demon Prince

(A) Superior Mark of Supremacy - Damage/Endurance
(27) Superior Mark of Supremacy - Accuracy/Endurance
(27) Edict of the Master - Accuracy/Damage
(31) Edict of the Master - Defense Bonus
(31) HamiO:Peroxisome Exposure
(33) HamiO:Peroxisome Exposure

Level 28: Farsight

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
(29) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Recharge
(29) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance/Recharge
(45) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed

Level 30: Time Stop

(A) Basilisk's Gaze - Accuracy/Hold
(46) Basilisk's Gaze - Recharge/Hold
(46) Basilisk's Gaze - Endurance/Recharge/Hold
(46) Basilisk's Gaze - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge/Hold
(50) Lockdown - Chance for +2 Mag Hold

Level 32: Abyssal Empowerment

(A) Endurance Reduction IO

Level 35: Slowed Response

(A) Shield Breaker - Accuracy/Recharge
(36) Shield Breaker - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
(36) Analyze Weakness - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge

Level 38: Chrono Shift

(A) Preemptive Optimization - EndMod/Endurance
(39) Preemptive Optimization - EndMod/Recharge
(39) Preemptive Optimization - EndMod/Accuracy/Endurance
(39) Preemptive Optimization - EndMod/Accuracy/Recharge
(40) Preemptive Optimization - EndMod/Endurance/Recharge

Level 41: Scorpion Shield

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
(42) Luck of the Gambler - Defense
(42) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed

Level 44: Power Boost

(A) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 47: Tactics

(A) Adjusted Targeting - To Hit Buff
(48) Adjusted Targeting - To Hit Buff/Recharge
(48) Adjusted Targeting - To Hit Buff/Endurance/Recharge
(48) Adjusted Targeting - Endurance/Recharge
(50) Adjusted Targeting - To Hit Buff/Endurance

Level 49: Hover

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed

Level 1: Brawl

(A) Empty

Level 1: Prestige Power Dash

(A) Empty

Level 1: Prestige Power Slide

(A) Empty

Level 1: Prestige Power Quick

(A) Empty

Level 1: Prestige Power Rush

(A) Empty

Level 1: Prestige Power Surge

(A) Empty

Level 1: Sprint

(A) Unbounded Leap - +Stealth

Level 1: Supremacy

Level 2: Rest

(A) Empty

Level 4: Ninja Run

Level 2: Swift

From my limited experience, the damage is underwhelming but the debuff does help (plus, it looks cool). But according to Mids, the stats for Lash are better, save for the arc effect of Crack Whip:

Lash

End 10.66

Recharge 8s

Range 20

Cast 1.8s

Accuracy 75%

Duration 6s

Res: -9.38%

KB: 1.06

Damage: Fire 32, Toxic 5.14 x 4 = 53.1

Crack Whip

End 17.94

Recharge 15s

Range 30

Cast 2.33s

Accuracy 75%

Duration 2.1s

Arc: 30 deg

Res: -9.38%

KB: 0.64

Damage: Fire 34, Toxic 5.4 x 3 = 50.86

If primarily after the resistance debuff, Corruption is fastest of the lot, for single-target. It's used in the Demons/Dark build in this good thread on /Dark for MMs (end of the second post).

Corruption

End 6.5

Recharge 4s

Range 80

Cast 1.23s

Accuracy 75%

Duration 5s

Res: -9.38%

Damage: Fire 23, Toxic 3.6x 4 = 38

While none of these are the big powers of the Demons set, it's nice to have an active ability with a bit of damage. Am I reading Mids correctly about the tradeoffs? Are there other factors that matter?

Edited September 27, 2020 by Graedyn

Force Redux · September 28, 2020

The most important aspect is the resistance debuff which any of the three can give you. Demons kill things quickly enough that the only thing you care about debuffing resistance on is single tough targets like EBs or AVs, where you can help stack -Res with your Demons. Corruption works best IMO. Plus I like the range and speed.

I don't care for the knockback/KD on on either Lash or Crack Whip. Stick an Overwhelming Force KD proc in T1 Demonlings and it's very noticable CC in their place.

These are quibbles, however. Pick one you enjoy the animation on and use it, if you are otherwise undecided 😊

Edited September 29, 2020 by Force Redux

Force Redux · September 28, 2020

Also, ty for the compliment on my Dark thread 😀

Meknomancer · September 28, 2020

I always take crack whip and usually use it as an opener to knock stuff down and it takes a ff+rech which is always handy and aoe sets which have a lot more chance for damage pieces than the ranged sets.

Runebound · September 29, 2020

On 9/28/2020 at 9:05 AM, Force Redux said:

Also, ty for the compliment on my Dark thread 😀

For anyone who hasn't seen it, this is an outstanding thread on Dark Miasma, with lots of info on MM's in general. Check it out, in Force Redux's sig, above.

I tried out the whip powers for a good run on the test server and agree with the posts above. Like Force Redux said, they're similar enough that you can pick whichever animation you like best.

That said, I'm giving the nod to Corruption for my Demon/Dark MM because, like Meknomancer, I found a whip power to be a good opener, and the extra range on Corruption lets me easily pull to a corner for a tougher fight. For my Demon/Time MM, who plays at closer range, I'll go for Crack Whip, though Lash would certainly work for a nearby single target.

My other discovery? I really like Petrifying Gaze. It's the middle child of the Dark Miasma pool, but it can be really useful, adding a valuable hard CC that isn't broken by damage. Slotted with 2 Acc, 2 Hold, and 2 Recharge (lvl 40 IOs), it hits often and holds longer than its recharge time.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Graedyn

Force Redux · September 29, 2020

@Graedyn thanks for the compliment, glad folks find it useful 🙂

BGSacho · September 29, 2020

I'm fairly sure the res debuff stacks across powers(that is, you can have corruption + lash + crack whip giving the -res debuff). As far as the natural -res goes, these powers are actually weaker than a -def power slotted with achilles.

Lash and Crack Whip are some of the best PPM powers that MMs have access to. Lash because it is a rare "melee attack"(allowing use of the melee purple), and Crack Whip because it is a fairly cheap AoE with a well-balanced cooldown(high enough for high proc%, low enough to be able to reapply it constantly). Both powers also have a KB modifier, which means you can slot Force Feedback(!) in them, which is the best way to achieve +recharge if your build needs it. Corruption is the weakest of the 3, since it's a ranged attack with no special effects(so not enough procs).

Here's some theorycrafted numbers to evaluate the powers compared to your pets and each other. The assumptions for the pets are "standard" proc slotting, 145% ED(max ED + alpha, supremacy). The assumption for the MM is 100% global recharge(trivially achieved with hasten). These DPS values are vs +0 enemies, with no -res debuffs, etc.

Demon Prince: 50 - 60 DPS
Hellfire Gargoyle: ~40 DPS
Rough total pet damage(assuming targets around +0-1): ~200 DPS
-10% res debuff(all the demon powers): ~20 DPS increase for pets
Using Corruption on CD with 2 procs(1 purple): 31 DPS, 25% fill rate*, 1.9 EPS*
Using Lash on CD with 4 procs(1 purple): 43 DPS, 20% fill rate, ~1.75 EPS
Using Crack Whip on CD with 4 procs(0 purple): 23 DPS, 15% fill rate, ~1.8 EPS

fill rate - how much of your total time available you use by activating the skill whenever it's off CD
EPS - endurance per second usage

From these theorycrated numbers, you can tell that properly slotting Lash and using it on cooldown essentially adds another T3's damage to your arsenal.

My experience playing demons/dark tells me that I can fit 2 of these powers in my builds(usually Lash and Crack Whip) and still have plenty of room to use my secondary's powers. The end drain is rough, but manageable, and the result is significantly faster kill speed.

Edited September 30, 2020 by BGSacho

Coyote · September 29, 2020

I agree that these are some of the best attacks for MMs, and by using procs you bypass the low base damage for MMs.

Getting Force Feedback in two powers is also good, especially on Crack Whip which will hit enough target to activate it regularly.

Adding -Res to the rest of the damage is also nice.

Overall, I try to get all 3 in with good procs, but I'd try for at least 2 in any build. Endurance usage goes up noticeably when whipping everything... but so does kill speed, so it seems worth it to me.

Coyote · September 30, 2020

On 9/29/2020 at 12:37 AM, Graedyn said:

My other discovery? I really like Petrifying Gaze. It's the middle child of the Dark Miasma pool, but it can be really useful, adding a valuable hard CC that isn't broken by damage. Slotted with 2 Acc, 2 Hold, and 2 Recharge (lvl 40 IOs), it hits often and holds longer than its recharge time.

I use the single-target Hold from Time as a damage power, with 3 damage procs. After 2 whip attacks with their -Res, it hits for solid damage. It's not worth using it on normal targets, but what I do is target the Demon Prince at a Boss (the DP uses a Hold with Mag 3), and then hit the boss with Time's Hold to hold the boss. It's useful for taking out nasty bosses (hello, Succubus, goodbye my dear) before they can mess your day.

TheSpiritFox · September 30, 2020

On 9/28/2020 at 11:37 PM, Graedyn said:

For anyone who hasn't seen it, this is an outstanding thread on Dark Miasma, with lots of info on MM's in general. Check it out, in Force Redux's sig, above.

I tried out the whip powers for a good run on the test server and agree with the posts above. Like Force Redux said, they're similar enough that you can pick whichever animation you like best.

That said, I'm giving the nod to Corruption for my Demon/Dark MM because, like Meknomancer, I found a whip power to be a good opener, and the extra range on Corruption lets me easily pull to a corner for a tougher fight. For my Demon/Time MM, who plays at closer range, I'll go for Crack Whip, though Lash would certainly work for a nearby single target.

My other discovery? I really like Petrifying Gaze. It's the middle child of the Dark Miasma pool, but it can be really useful, adding a valuable hard CC that isn't broken by damage. Slotted with 2 Acc, 2 Hold, and 2 Recharge (lvl 40 IOs), it hits often and holds longer than its recharge time.

Petrifying gaze also stacks a nice bit of tohit towards dark's general theme of "Only AVs have more than a 5% chance to hit anything ever" and even if the fear itself doesn't stick, everyone who gets hit takes a nice accuracy debuff in a pretty decent sized cone. Its also, if you have the slots and are building for recharge, a solid spot for 5 pieces of gravitational anchor.

Edited September 30, 2020 by TheSpiritFox

Runebound · September 30, 2020

On 9/29/2020 at 10:37 AM, BGSacho said:

I'm fairly sure the res debuff stacks across powers(that is, you can have corruption + lash + crack whip giving the -res debuff).

Oh, that's great! I'd love to fit two into my build. I've become fond of Corruption as a positional opener, thanks to its long range, but that may be from my particular use on the test server. (For me, +2/+4 with Bosses is, at level 40, challenging enough that I need to pull carefully for a well-managed fight, Bosses being the big factor.)

That said, can see how Lash and Crack Whip might pair together nicely. Tempting.

On 9/29/2020 at 10:37 AM, BGSacho said:

properly slotting Lash and using it on cooldown essentially adds another T3's damage to your arsenal.

Yes, that's a good comparison, thanks. Do you have slotting suggestions?

The other thing I've learned from this thread is the value of particular enhancement choices. I'm too new to gauge them from experience, so I've been planning and using basic IOs.

On 9/29/2020 at 10:46 AM, Coyote said:

I try to get all 3 in with good procs, but I'd try for at least 2 in any build.

Which procs are the targets here?

4 hours ago, Coyote said:

I do is target the Demon Prince at a Boss (the DP uses a Hold with Mag 3), and then hit the boss with Time's Hold to hold the boss. It's useful for taking out nasty bosses (hello, Succubus, goodbye my dear) before they can mess your day.

Ah. that's great, thanks. I began discovering the same approach in my test server runs. Glad to see why it works.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Graedyn

kelika2 · September 30, 2020

The mentality "if its not the best, dont do it" is where people skipping MM attacks comes from. Check out the damage from personal attacks and your pets attacks. In most cases your attacks do more damage than a tier1 minion. Moreso if you go with high recharge. Please keep in mind no +rech effects pets powers and you can easily attack twice before your pet recharges its powers. Soldiers, demonlings, etc tend to have a noticeable amount of downtime

Now im sure you know that Time's Juncture is a PBAoE around you, so being in melee wont be an issue for Lash and Crack Whip

Tactics is just not needed unless you plan on fighting +6s or so quite often. Itrials and such bump MM pet levels up. Far Sight, and its power boosted version is total overkill in the Tohit department.

I personally never rolled /Time, but my Demon/Thermal had plenty of powers and slots for attacks and all support stuff while having room for all the Unique IOs for def/res

Coyote · September 30, 2020

1 hour ago, Graedyn said:

Which procs are the targets here?

Level 2: Lash -- CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), Mk'Bit-Dam%(7), Hct-Dam%(9), TchofDth-Dam%(9), ExpStr-Dam%(11), FrcFdb-Rechg%(11)
Level 8: Corruption -- Thn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), Thn-Acc/Dmg(21), Thn-Dmg/EndRdx(23), Apc-Dam%(23), GldJvl-Dam%(25)
Level 14: Crack Whip -- PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), PstBls-Dam%(33), ExpStr-Dam%(33), JvlVll-Dam%(34), Empty(34), FrcFdb-Rechg%(34)
Level 20: Time Stop -- Lck-Acc/Hold(A), NrnSht-Dam%(39), GhsWdwEmb-Dam%(39), GldNet-Dam%(39), Lck-%Hold(40)

The Chance for Fire Damage from Bombardment breaks the calculations in Mids, but it goes in the Empty slot in Crack Whip.
For a /Dark, you would add a 6th slot into Petrifying Gaze, and put the purple damage proc in there. I'm putting it in Temporal Distortion instead.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Coyote

Runebound · October 1, 2020

3 hours ago, kelika2 said:

Soldiers, demonlings, etc tend to have a noticeable amount of downtime

I thought they were checking their phones.

Thanks for the tips. I love MM Demon/ and am actively playing both a /Dark and /Time, so the time tips from you and Coyote are sure helpful, too:

2 hours ago, Coyote said:

For a /Dark, you would add a 6th slot into Petrifying Gaze, and put the purple damage proc in there. I'm putting it in Temporal Distortion instead.

Thanks!

Using Lash and/or Crack Whip complicates the choice of Patron Powers for my /Dark, since it puts me in melee range, as I am with /Time. For /Dark, I had been favoring Heat: I like Bonfire, and by building Ranged defense and keeping my distance, I made less use of the star powers from other pools - Scorpion Shield, Oppressive Gloom, Hoarfrost. But now that I'm using Lash, I may need to rethink the Patron choice.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Graedyn

Coyote · October 1, 2020

Dark Miasma, and other anchor-debuff sets, plays surprisingly much in melee.

The reason is that your main defense is Darkest Night, and you put it on a target... and it debuffs everyone around the target. So, now you have everyone aggroed on you, and the Demons will go in and make some attacks, and pull some aggro. So now, some mobs are aggroed on you, and some on the Demons. If you stay at range, you may need to back up, which separates those who are aggroed on the Demons (who may not always charge into melee, but are quite happy to end up in it if mobs approach). So now with the pack split up, some of them get out of the toggle debuff.

So, with anchor debuff sets (Rad, Dark, Plant), if you stay close to the mobs, and use a Slow power (which Rad and Dark have) to slow their movement, you often want to stay at kind of the edge of a ball of mobs, so that whichever of them is the anchor, the rest of them are still within the debuff's radius. That puts you in closer range to use Lash and Crack Whip.

Also look at how strong Fearsome Stare and Darkest Night are. With those two putting out 20% debuffs each, it's probably better to work on having multiple defenses in the 20s backed up by a Resist shield, than to try hard to cap one particular range band. Even with the debuffs weakened against higher level targets, you should be able to manage 30% debuffing from them.

Lastly, while it's not a great deal since it has a smaller radius, remember that Twilight Grasp is an AoE heal and if your Demons go into melee... you'll have to go in there anyhow to heal them.

TheSpiritFox · October 1, 2020

31 minutes ago, Coyote said:

Dark Miasma, and other anchor-debuff sets, plays surprisingly much in melee.

The reason is that your main defense is Darkest Night, and you put it on a target... and it debuffs everyone around the target. So, now you have everyone aggroed on you, and the Demons will go in and make some attacks, and pull some aggro. So now, some mobs are aggroed on you, and some on the Demons. If you stay at range, you may need to back up, which separates those who are aggroed on the Demons (who may not always charge into melee, but are quite happy to end up in it if mobs approach). So now with the pack split up, some of them get out of the toggle debuff.

So, with anchor debuff sets (Rad, Dark, Plant), if you stay close to the mobs, and use a Slow power (which Rad and Dark have) to slow their movement, you often want to stay at kind of the edge of a ball of mobs, so that whichever of them is the anchor, the rest of them are still within the debuff's radius. That puts you in closer range to use Lash and Crack Whip.

Also look at how strong Fearsome Stare and Darkest Night are. With those two putting out 20% debuffs each, it's probably better to work on having multiple defenses in the 20s backed up by a Resist shield, than to try hard to cap one particular range band. Even with the debuffs weakened against higher level targets, you should be able to manage 30% debuffing from them.

Lastly, while it's not a great deal since it has a smaller radius, remember that Twilight Grasp is an AoE heal and if your Demons go into melee... you'll have to go in there anyhow to heal them.

Dark is actually the set I use bodyguard the most with on MMs. Cast darkest knight, run into melee with pets set to defensive goto, drop tar patch, cast heal, go from there. Because dark depends on debuffs rather than buffs pulling with anything other than darkest knight is asking to lose pets if not die, but once debuffed I just park myself in melee with dark and let the demons do their thing.

Runebound · October 5, 2020

On 9/30/2020 at 6:47 PM, Coyote said:

Darkest Night... If you stay at range, you may need to back up, which separates those who are aggroed on the Demons (who may not always charge into melee, but are quite happy to end up in it if mobs approach). So now with the pack split up, some of them get out of the toggle debuff.

....you often want to stay at kind of the edge of a ball of mobs, so that whichever of them is the anchor, the rest of them are still within the debuff's radius. That puts you in closer range to use Lash and Crack Whip.

On 9/30/2020 at 7:19 PM, TheSpiritFox said:

Cast darkest knight, run into melee with pets set to defensive goto, drop tar patch, cast heal, go from there.

I've been trying this approach for the past several days, thanks to Coyote and SpiritFox. It makes good sense, though it takes getting used to. I generally play at range as a squishy, and I'm used to pulling with Corruption, often to a corner spot where I can funnel mobs through Tar Patch.

The biggest change is in build plans. It's tricky to reach this 20% Defense + Resist goal:

On 9/30/2020 at 6:47 PM, Coyote said:

.....it's probably better to work on having multiple defenses in the 20s backed up by a Resist shield, than to try hard to cap one particular range band. Even with the debuffs weakened against higher level targets, you should be able to manage 30% debuffing from them.

Any tips on getting there?

Working from Force Redux's excellent guide, this is what I have so far

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.7.2.10
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Runelock: Level 50 Magic Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Demon Summoning
Secondary Power Set: Dark Miasma
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Heat Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Summon Demonlings

(A) Blood Mandate - Damage/Endurance
(3) Blood Mandate - Accuracy/Damage
(3) Blood Mandate - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
(7) Blood Mandate - Accuracy/Endurance
(31) Blood Mandate - Accuracy
(36) Blood Mandate - Damage

Level 1: Twilight Grasp

(A) Touch of the Nictus - Healing/Absorb
(5) Touch of the Nictus - Healing/Absorb/Recharge
(5) Touch of the Nictus - Accuracy/Healing/Absorb
(7) Touch of the Nictus - Accuracy/Endurance/Healing/Absorb
(15) Touch of the Nictus - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
(15) Theft of Essence - Chance for +Endurance

Level 2: Corruption

(A) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage
(9) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance
(11) Thunderstrike - Damage/Recharge
(31) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
(33) Thunderstrike - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
(33) Thunderstrike - Damage/Endurance/Recharge

Level 4: Hover

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
(37) Kismet - Accuracy +6%

Level 6: Enchant Demon

(A) Endurance Reduction IO

Level 8: Tar Patch

(A) Pacing of the Turtle - Endurance/Recharge/Slow

Level 10: Howling Twilight

(A) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 12: Summon Demons

(A) Blood Mandate - Accuracy/Damage
(13) Blood Mandate - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
(21) Blood Mandate - Accuracy
(23) Blood Mandate - Damage
(23) Blood Mandate - Damage/Endurance
(25) Blood Mandate - Accuracy/Endurance

Level 14: Darkest Night

(A) Dark Watcher's Despair - To Hit Debuff
(19) Dark Watcher's Despair - To Hit Debuff/Recharge
(19) Dark Watcher's Despair - To Hit Debuff/Recharge/Endurance
(21) Dark Watcher's Despair - To Hit Debuff/Endurance

Level 16: Shadow Fall

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
(17) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance
(17) Gladiator's Armor - TP Protection +3% Def (All)
(43) Gladiator's Armor - Resistance
(43) Shield Wall - +Res (Teleportation), +5% Res (All)
(43) Steadfast Protection - Resistance/+Def 3%

Level 18: Hell on Earth

(A) Expedient Reinforcement - Resist Bonus Aura for Pets
(46) Expedient Reinforcement - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
(46) Call to Arms - Defense Bonus Aura for Pets
(50) Call to Arms - Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
(50) Call to Arms - Endurance/Damage/Recharge
(50) Call to Arms - Accuracy/Recharge

Level 20: Fearsome Stare

(A) Cloud Senses - ToHit Debuff
(36) Cloud Senses - Accuracy/ToHitDebuff
(40) Cloud Senses - Accuracy/Recharge
(42) Cloud Senses - ToHit Debuff/Endurance/Recharge
(42) Cloud Senses - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
(46) Cloud Senses - Chance for Negative Energy Damage

Level 22: Crack Whip

(A) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage
(25) Positron's Blast - Damage/Range
(33) Positron's Blast - Chance of Damage(Energy)
(34) Positron's Blast - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
(34) Positron's Blast - Damage/Recharge
(34) Force Feedback - Chance for +Recharge

Level 24: Fly

(A) Endurance Reduction IO

Level 26: Summon Demon Prince

(A) Impeded Swiftness - Chance of Damage(Smashing)
(27) Soulbound Allegiance - Chance for Build Up
(27) Sovereign Right - Resistance Bonus
(36) Blood Mandate - Accuracy
(37) Blood Mandate - Accuracy/Damage
(42) Blood Mandate - Accuracy/Damage/Endurance

Level 28: Petrifying Gaze

(A) Basilisk's Gaze - Accuracy/Hold
(29) Basilisk's Gaze - Accuracy/Recharge
(29) Basilisk's Gaze - Endurance/Recharge/Hold
(37) Basilisk's Gaze - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge/Hold
(48) Basilisk's Gaze - Recharge/Hold

Level 30: Hasten

(A) Recharge Reduction IO
(31) Recharge Reduction IO

Level 32: Abyssal Empowerment

(A) Endurance Reduction IO

Level 35: Bonfire

(A) Overwhelming Force - Damage/Chance for Knockdown/Knockback to Knockdown

Level 38: Dark Servant

(A) Cloud Senses - ToHit Debuff
(39) Cloud Senses - Accuracy/ToHitDebuff
(39) Cloud Senses - Accuracy/Recharge
(39) Cloud Senses - ToHit Debuff/Endurance/Recharge
(40) Cloud Senses - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
(40) Cloud Senses - Chance for Negative Energy Damage

Level 41: Char

(A) Basilisk's Gaze - Accuracy/Hold
(45) Basilisk's Gaze - Accuracy/Recharge
(45) Basilisk's Gaze - Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge/Hold
(48) Basilisk's Gaze - Recharge/Hold

Level 44: Maneuvers

(A) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed
(45) Luck of the Gambler - Defense/Endurance

Level 47: Tactics

(A) Adjusted Targeting - To Hit Buff/Endurance/Recharge
(48) Adjusted Targeting - To Hit Buff/Endurance

Level 49: Vengeance

(A) Preventive Medicine - Chance for +Absorb

Level 2: Health

(A) Miracle - +Recovery
(9) Panacea - +Hit Points/Endurance
(11) Numina's Convalesence - +Regeneration/+Recovery

Level 2: Hurdle

(A) Jumping IO

Level 2: Stamina

Performance Shifter - Chance for +End
Performance Shifter - EndMod

Level 2: Sprint

(A) Celerity - +Stealth

It prioritized Ranged Defense (34.8%), but it's weaker vs Melee and vs Smashing/Lethal (13.5%). S/L resistance is just 5%.

Force Redux's is a bit lighter in overall Defense but shines in Resistance, with 47% S/L, plus similar or higher numbers in everything else. Some of that comes from Dark Embrace, but I wonder if the rest is from the Superior Mark/ Superior Command slots in Hell on Earth. I'm still learning about the Incarnate/ Alpha system: do those apply a 15% bonus to all Resist and Defense?

If possible, I'd like to keep Heat in place of Soul Mastery, while still boosting my melee worthiness. I know Heat trails in popularity, but I love Bonfire, and have learned to shape my play around it for this MM. Also, Heats fits well with using both Corruption and Crack Whip: since Bonfire doesn't need additional slots, I complete Crack Whip by taking the slots from Soul Tentacles in Force Redux's build.

Other slotting choices I'm not sure about:

Sovereign Right Resistance Bonus (in Demon Prince) shows no benefit I see in Mids. Does it add 10% to all Resists?
Is Soulbound Allegiance Build Up (once I can afford it) worthwhile in Demon Prince? Most builds put it in Demonlings (for x3 bonus?), but some in Demon Prince. I went with the latter to keep the Ranged Defense bonus from a 6-set of Blood Mandate in Demonlings, but if there's a better way, I'll change it.
Is Numina's +Regen/ + Recovery (in Health) important? I could drop it (or swap it with Preventative Medicine's Absorb, if that's useful), plus drop a slot from Maneuvers or Tactics, to 6-slot Char with Neuronic Shutdown for a couple points more S/L Resist and Def, if worth the trade.

Any advice on improving defense/resistance while keeping Corruption + Crack Whip?

Edited October 5, 2020 by Graedyn

Force Redux · October 6, 2020

Hello. I heard my name being called. Quick response, as I don't have time to go over a full build. Thoughts below:

Defense. IMO you either build for Ranged (since you generally don't take aggro and can stay outside of melee even while debuffing) OR you go for S/L Defense, and don't worry about Melee as much but understand you are going to take the occasional ranged non-physical attack. Either work well, but I find it easier to build for ranged on MOST builds. The magical number is 20 to 30% for Dark Miasma builds. You could go higher (such as with Bots) but with the debuffs, this is the target you want to soft-cap vs anything not in the Purple Patch.
Resistances; you will take damage and these help mitigate that. So do your Dark Miasma debuffs which have plenty of -damage components. Do not underestimate the benefits of a few low-hanging +HitPoint IO set bonuses (easy to get but don't go out of your way to get them) and +Health from Accolades. These will help prevent one-shots. I wouldn't lose sleep over geting your numbers super high. Ay Dark Miasma build relies on layers of multiple protection rather than one primary method (such as Robots/FF masterminds). As always, S/L and Energy are the most important resists in the end game, but really, whatever you can get is fine. None of my MM builds live and die on Resistance UNLESS they are Thermal/Sonic builds, in which case, you should be stacking resistances as high as you can get.
You can add two Defense Uniques to get a +8% resist all damage types (and will scale up a bit with damage taken). I wouldn't go out of my way for this unless I'm really low in Defense (sub 20% Ranged or S/L).
IO Pet Uniques do not carry to the MM, only the pets. Those boosts to Resist/Defense do not affect the MM.
I've always had the correct numbers for the Resists for pets when I use Combat Attributes on them. Yours should match what I have in my guide. Would you screenshot and post it, please?
Keep the Numina's unique. PM's absorb unique is best use on ATs with a higher health, as it really only procs when you are low and the amount is not enough to save a low HP AT like MM from a one shot in most cases.
Soulbound can go in Demon Prince. I like it in Gargoyles, since they both do solid damage and they then each have twice the chance to proc it than Demon Prince.
Heat Mastery is a very good MM epic set. Yes, you lose the damage shield, but the KD from Bonfire offers a lot of mitigation not only to you, but also to the pets. It is always a solid choice. You may with to consider putting some procs in there, besides the KB to KD proc. It can do respecctable levels of damage if you toss one or two damage procs in.

Runebound · October 7, 2020

Thanks for the good thoughts! I'm continually struck with how helpful folks are in the Forum.

14 hours ago, Force Redux said:

Defense. IMO you either build for Ranged.... OR you go for S/L Defense... The magical number is 20 to 30% for Dark Miasma builds.

Resistances; you will take damage and these help mitigate that. So do your Dark Miasma debuffs which have plenty of -damage components. Do not underestimate the benefits of a few low-hanging +HitPoint IO set bonuses (easy to get but don't go out of your way to get them) and +Health from Accolades. These will help prevent one-shots. I wouldn't lose sleep over geting your numbers super high. Ay Dark Miasma build relies on layers of multiple protection rather than one primary method (such as Robots/FF masterminds). As always, S/L and Energy are the most important resists in the end game, but really, whatever you can get is fine. None of my MM builds live and die on Resistance UNLESS they are Thermal/Sonic builds, in which case, you should be stacking resistances as high as you can get.

That's all good info and consistent with the way I planned my Whips build, though I wonder now if Ranged defense will still do, given the melee-distance approaches described above.

I'll add Accolades to the (long!) list of things to learn about.

14 hours ago, Force Redux said:

You can add two Defense Uniques to get a +8% resist all damage types (and will scale up a bit with damage taken). I wouldn't go out of my way for this unless I'm really low in Defense (sub 20% Ranged or S/L).

IO Pet Uniques do not carry to the MM, only the pets. Those boosts to Resist/Defense do not affect the MM.

I've always had the correct numbers for the Resists for pets when I use Combat Attributes on them. Yours should match what I have in my guide. Would you screenshot and post it, please?

Good to know. Which are the Defense Uniques to look for?

I didn't realize the Pet Uniques don't carry to the MM, so that may be why I don't see the Resist value change when I slot Sovereign Right Resistance. It sounds like there's a way in Mids to see pet Resist values?

14 hours ago, Force Redux said:

Keep the Numina's unique. PM's absorb unique is best use on ATs with a higher health, as it really only procs when you are low and the amount is not enough to save a low HP AT like MM from a one shot in most cases.

Soulbound can go in Demon Prince. I like it in Gargoyles, since they both do solid damage and they then each have twice the chance to proc it than Demon Prince.

Heat Mastery is a very good MM epic set. Yes, you lose the damage shield, but the KD from Bonfire offers a lot of mitigation not only to you, but also to the pets. It is always a solid choice. You may with to consider putting some procs in there, besides the KB to KD proc. It can do respecctable levels of damage if you toss one or two damage procs in.

That makes sense about the PM Aborb unique. I'll keep the Numina's in Health. Is it also worth the slots there for Miracle +Recovery and Panacea +HP/End?

I'd love to keep Heat Mastery if it's viable. I'm glad to hear about the damage, too - I'd been using it just for CC.

Force Redux · October 8, 2020

Hello! Yes, the CoH community has always been superb! Glad to help.

Ranged Defense I find useful on Dark, even though you get close for some things, you have plenty of room to remain out of melee.
Here are the Pet IO Defense Uniques:
- Edict of the Master (+5% Defense vs All)
- Call to Arms (+5% Defense vs All)
- Command of the Mastermind (+10% AoE Defense; increases to +15% when upgraded at level 50 to Superior)
- Sovereign Right (+10% Resistance vs All)
- Expedient Reinforcement (+10% Resistance vs All)
- Mark of Supremacy (+10% Resistance vs All; imcreases to +15% when upgraded at level 50 to Superior)
  - The IO text description says "to all resistance except Psionic" but that's not true, under Combat Attributes the resistance is across the board.
- I don't know about Mids but I don't always trust Mids number's to be accurate. I always look in-game at Combat Attributes.
- Every MM I have gets the following unique IOs in Health: Miracle, Panacea and Numina. All three. These are always worth it. Start with Numina's/Miracle then add Panacea when you can later, as it is the most expensive.
- Keep Heat Mastery. It is a great pool pick. You'd be surprised at the damage that it can add with some procs. Start with the Sudden Acceleration KD proc , as you have it, then add some damage procs - Explosive Strike, Positron's Blast and Bombardment all have one. You can also slot for Endurance and Recharge if you want to spare a couple more slots. No matter what you do, its a great tool, even with the default slot.

Let us know how things progress!

Runebound · October 8, 2020

Great info, thanks.

Since my goal in the thread is to make a viable two-whip build, I'm curious about these defense and damage options, given the collected advice above. Any thoughts on these tradeoffs?

35% Ranged Defense with 5% S/L Resist or...... 22% Defense in everything, with 13% S/L Resist?
- I started at range and planned to max Ranged Def. But now that I'm trying Melee range, I wonder if the latter route will pay off?
- Changes would include replacing a set of Blood Mandate with Sovereign Right, replacing Cloud Senses x2 w Siphon Insight, and dropping the Soulbound Chance for Build Up
- If I can eventually afford 4 Marks of Supremacy, could add Melee Def of 3% and S/L 1.5%, at the cost of some Resist (2.25% S/L, plus dropping Sleep/Hold/Confuse from 40% to 30%)

Bonfire with 1 slot plus Maneuvers & Tactics at 2, or.... Bonfire with 3 slots and Maneuvers & Tactics at 1?
- I'll confess to finding Tactics unnecessary for ordinary mobs, and superfluous when in well-buffed teams facing tough enemies. Maneuvers seems similarly situational, and Bonfire is just plain more fun,
- Fun is the ultimate goal, but since it's also fun to succeed, I wonder if I'm underplaying the value of M & T. Can they be effective with just 1 slot each? I'm ok on Endurance, though with just 2 slots in Stamina, I do watch my toggle use when Tactics is up.

Edited October 8, 2020 by Graedyn

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Whips? Choices for a Demon MM

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