Claws / Ninjutsu - Is it viable? Alternative suggestions?

[SmokenBongs]

Hello Scrapper Community and thanks for stopping by my post!

 

I recently created a Claws / Ninjutsu Scrapper name Lady Foxy. I dig her character concept, but I'm still learning when it comes to making builds and having a tough time finding a good one in the forums for this combo.

 

This brings me here to ask the experts a few questions...

 

1) Can anyone share a good Claws / Ninjutsu build?

 

2) What are the pitfalls of choosing Ninjutsu as a secondary?

 

3a) Do you have any recommendations on a different secondary to pair with it? (NOTE: For thematic reasons I'd prefer to avoid elemental type secondary choices. She is basically part fox and I can't see a fox with control of Ice, Fire, Radiation etc.)

 

3b) If I could get over the thematic thing, is there a secondary that would be ideal and fun?

 

4) How does the attack from stealth* work? (I read that you have to be in hide for 20 seconds which seems very long)

 

That's all I have for right now and any assistance is greatly appreciated! Thanks for your time 😃 

Edited October 2, 2020 by SmokenBongs
Corrected hide to stealth

[Doomguide2005]

Hide? (*runs off to check*).  If this is a Scrapper there's no Hide power, that's for the Stalker secondary.  Currently I can't look at or create builds in Mids', only have phone for internet access.  Looks like your KB protection is comparatively late coming at 28th.  Your positional defenses on the other hand come early especially compared to SR whose access to AoE defense is rather late.  SR is what I'd consider as the closest 'natural' themed set along the same lines as Ninjitsu. You have modest DDR so are susceptible to cascade defense failure if you're up against heavy defense debuffs like Cimerorans.  You have tools for both healing and end recovery.  SR has no healing or recovery but has a DDR second to none (and essentially makes you immune) and its unique scaling resistance (more you get hurt the more resistance you have).  Only the IO can allow others to mimic it (and it caps off at +13, well less than SR's, though the two will stack for SR)

 

Got to run for now, back later.

[SmokenBongs]

Hey @Doomguide2005 I appreciate your feedback. I corrected the wording to indicate stealth as Ninjutsu provides a Shinobi-Iri which grants stealth with a dmg bonus on the 1st attack.

 

The Shinobi-Iri power was actually what drew me to Ninjitsu on the scrapper. Again, for the theme, I was thinking about a stealthy scrappy fox. I know I could go stalker to get hide and such, but I have a Savage Stalker I like well enough and wanted to try the Scrapper AT.

Edited October 2, 2020 by SmokenBongs

[Lockpick]

2) What are the pitfalls of choosing Ninjutsu as a secondary?

 

Not really any as far as I can tell.  You get a click heal, click end recovery, and can soft-cap defense relatively easily.  This allows you to pick incarnates based on concept or want as opposed to having to fill a gap.

 

I am playing a Katana/Ninjitsu now and the only thing I dislike is the click Mez (Kuji-In Rin), since I make that my one auto-click and it happens in combat a lot which can throw off your attack chain.  It also prevents you from making Hasten auto-click if you make Kuji-In Rin auto.  It's a great Mez power, I just don't like it as a click.  Others do.  Same with SR.

 

One pitfall is the KB hole that gets covered by Bo Ryaku somewhat late, but this can be mitigated in the early game with KB prot IOs.  Bo Ryaku is good for the + Def procs as well.

 

Shinobi-Iri with Ninja Run or Combat Jumping plus Sprint allows you to skip a travel power.  I still took Fly, but you can get by fine with those powers as your travel power.

 

I think it is one of the better secondaries.

 

 

3a) Do you have any recommendations on a different secondary to pair with it? (NOTE: For thematic reasons I'd prefer to avoid elemental type secondary choices. She is basically part fox and I can't see a fox with control of Ice, Fire, Radiation etc.)

 

Claws / SR seems popular and would be thematic.  Check out @Bill Z Bubba for builds.  He does some cool stuff with his Claws/SR and has a lot of experience with the set.

 

 

3b) If I could get over the thematic thing, is there a secondary that would be ideal and fun?

 

EA is better than its reputation, Will Power is set and forget, but not sure you need the end with Claws.  I think Ninjitsu is fine and I would say give it a try.

 

 

4) How does the attack from stealth* work? (I read that you have to be in hide for 20 seconds which seems very long)

 

To me it is hit or miss.  It is fine when you are coming up on a new mob and initiating an attack.  Other than that I don't rely on it.  If you miss your attack you are also taken out of stealth.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Lockpick
Fixed spelling

[Doomguide2005]

Speaking of the diabolic, Bill Z recently posted in the Brute forums about Claws/** 

 

Thread title "SM/Claws with something"

Edited October 3, 2020 by Doomguide2005

[InvaderStych]

On 10/2/2020 at 7:26 AM, SmokenBongs said:

2) What are the pitfalls of choosing Ninjutsu as a secondary?

May or may not be a pitfall depending on how you want the character to play, but mine (Psi/Nin) positively sheds aggro, seriously, to borrow an analogy from the motoring world: she couldn't pull the skin off a custard in that department.  I don't think I've played anything that has had to chase down more runners.

 

On 10/2/2020 at 7:26 AM, SmokenBongs said:

3a) Do you have any recommendations on a different secondary to pair with it?

 

x2 on /SR with Claws.  Absolute classic, tho I haven't rolled one here on HC.  See also Willpower for a set that has minimal effects despite a ton of toggles.  Good broad spectrum def/res that doesn't really specialize in any one thing, but also has no real holes. Invuln might be interesting, but I haven't played it enough to comment, and it's not exactly something I'd associate with a Fox. 🙂

 

On 10/2/2020 at 7:26 AM, SmokenBongs said:

3b) If I could get over the thematic thing, is there a secondary that would be ideal and fun?

 

Radiation Armor.  When in doubt on "elemental armors" while simultaneously willing to modify concepts, my first suggestion will usually be /Rad.  xxx/Rad/Soul makes for an extremely survivable scrapper.  The +dmg inside Meltdown is very tasty.  Claws loves +recharge which /Rad gives through Beta Decay.  You get a decent heal, a very strong absorb, and far more endurance tools than Claws would ever need. Oh, and 1.5 nukes to work with too.

 

On 10/2/2020 at 7:26 AM, SmokenBongs said:

4) How does the attack from stealth* work? (I read that you have to be in hide for 20 seconds which seems very long)

 

It's an opener, basically.  On the Psi/Nin it's actually sort of hilarious though because the delayed dmg on Mass Levitate means that the Critical dmg is applied first, then the regular dmg when they hit the ground.  You'll get good results on that opening strike, but then it's basically a non-factor until you get to the next battle.

 

Also, I've noticed that I've got more of a window to pull it off with a Celerity +Stealth in Shinobi.  It seems to provide more time to position before they notice I'm there.  Before the IO I would occasionally get spotted when I hit melee range, get attacked and have stealth drop before I liked my positioning for the pbAoE opener.

 

18 hours ago, SmokenBongs said:

 

The Shinobi-Iri power was actually what drew me to Ninjitsu on the scrapper. Again, for the theme, I was thinking about a stealthy scrappy fox. I know I could go stalker to get hide and such, but I have a Savage Stalker I like well enough and wanted to try the Scrapper AT.

 

Go for it. 

 

Even with a .... questionable ... primary like Psi/ going with /Nin over /SR (my other choice for that toon) has turned out to be a lot of fun to play.  I should team with her more though.  I like being able to decide if I want to fight my way through or stealth the map to the objective.  I like knowing I can drop an opening AoE Critical with consistency, and I very much enjoy the movement speeds even if I am sort of a clumsy pinball most of the time. 😄

 

I'm also not a big fan of "Click Mez Protection," and even though it does occasionally interrupt combat it's actually trivial to get it to double-stack briefly, so there's no worry on being without it while it is on cool-down.  It also covers Fear and Confuse, which are both fairly common holes (/Rad has none of either, for example) and show up all over Dark Astoria and other endgame content.

 

Also, the +End and Heal powers are quite good.  Better than I had expected.

 

Yeah, I'd say go for it. /Nin scrappers are slightly different but seriously fun.

Edited October 3, 2020 by InvaderStych

[Doomguide2005]

I wonder if the Stealth also carries a -threat with it.  Might explain your noticing a tendency to shed aggro.

[Doomguide2005]

As for the click mez, I noticed when I first returned to HC that PB allowed you to click it when mezzed.  For quite a while ( as in many issues ago) I have not placed PB on auto, the fact it readily recharges before its duration ends meant I simply waited to be moving between spawns or whenever it was convenient so not to interrupt me while attacking.  On occasion this meant I'd forget to click, an a attack would land and it would rudely bounce me across the map.  Almost never would that mean getting mezzed ... and now if it did happen well I could use PB anyway.

 

Point is I personally wouldn't worry about putting it on auto.  Capped defense means it's a very rare occurrence and I'd much rather use it when it won't interrupt my assault even if it means the rare oops which is then 'on demand' eliminated by clicking PB.  Put Hasten or something else more productive on auto.

[SmokenBongs]

I greatly appreciate all the information and advice! I'm now feeling much more confident that I can go Claws / Ninjutsu and feel good about the choice. 

 

Now the question is how do I build it? 

 

I'm gonna work on trying to assemble one over the next couple days that I'm hoping you all can help me review (as I'm definitely a novice at builds), but would greatly appreciate it if anyone has a suggested build they could share. 

 

Thanks again for the help!

[Jaxman100]

This is a fairly reasonably priced build I went with.  I might delay Tough and Weave a bit more and take another power that can take a Knockback IO sooner or move a slot for the same thing to be able to level with more than 8 points of KB protection.  Maybe a run speed bonus.  

 

I pretty much have the powers I want after taking Shockwave. Plenty of room for flexibility if someone wants Hasten and spots to swap in either purple sets or Winter sets once they are affordable. 

 

I didn't go with the Tier 9 defensive power, but I was curious if Seishinteki Kyoyo at 26 could offset the endurance penalty. 

 

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.1.25
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Nin Jax 2: Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Claws
Secondary Power Set: Ninjitsu
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Teleportation
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Strike -- Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg(A), Mk'Bit-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Mk'Bit-Dmg/Rchg(39), Mk'Bit-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(40), Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), Mk'Bit-Dam%(40)
Level 1: Ninja Reflexes -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def(5), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(5), GifoftheA-Run+(50)
Level 2: Danger Sense -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def(3), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(3), GifoftheA-Run+(48)
Level 4: Slash -- CrsImp-Acc/Dmg(A), CrsImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), CrsImp-Dmg/Rchg(15), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(17), CrsImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(17), AchHee-ResDeb%(42)
Level 6: Shinobi-Iri -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def(7), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(7), BlsoftheZ-Travel(36), BlsoftheZ-ResKB(43)
Level 8: Follow Up -- SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg(A), SprCrtStr-Dmg/Rchg(9), SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(9), SprCrtStr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), SprCrtStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), SprCrtStr-Rchg/+50% Crit(34)
Level 10: Spin -- Obl-Dmg(A), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(11), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Obl-%Dam(31), ScrDrv-Dam%(42)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Krm-ResKB(37), Ksm-ToHit+(42), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(46)
Level 14: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 16: Kuji-In Rin -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 18: Focus -- SprScrStr-Rchg/+Crit(A), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg(19), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), SprScrStr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23), SprScrStr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23), Apc-Dam%(36)
Level 20: Kuji-In Sha -- DctWnd-EndRdx/Rchg(A), DctWnd-Heal/Rchg(21), DctWnd-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(21), DctWnd-Heal(31), DctWnd-Rchg(36)
Level 22: Tough -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), UnbGrd-ResDam(27), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(27), UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg(29), UnbGrd-Max HP%(29)
Level 24: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def(25), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(25)
Level 26: Seishinteki Kyoyo -- SynSck-EndMod(A), SynSck-Dam/Rech(43), SynSck-EndMod/Rech(45), SynSck-Dam/Rech/Acc(45), SynSck-EndMod/+RunSpeed(45)
Level 28: Bo Ryaku -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A)
Level 30: Hover -- Rct-ResDam%(A)
Level 32: Shockwave -- PstBls-Acc/Dmg(A), PstBls-Dmg/EndRdx(33), PstBls-Dmg/Rchg(33), PstBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), PstBls-Dam%(34), SuddAcc--KB/+KD(34)
Level 35: Focused Accuracy -- GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(A), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(43)
Level 38: Recall Friend -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A)
Level 41: Physical Perfection -- PrfShf-End%(A), PwrTrns-+Heal(50)
Level 44: Blinding Powder -- MlsIll-Acc/Rchg(A), MlsIll-EndRdx/Conf(46), MlsIll-Acc/EndRdx(46), MlsIll-Conf/Rng(48), MlsIll-Acc/Conf/Rchg(48)
Level 47: Fly -- Flight-I(A)
Level 49: Afterburner -- GifoftheA-Run+(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit 
Level 1: Quick Form 
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(37), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(50)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(37), PwrTrns-+Heal(39)
------------

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[InvaderStych]

@Jaxman100, curious if you have actually found a use for Blinding Powder, or if it's there for the set bonuses?

 

I experimented with it a bit, even stacking it with Boggle to see if the confuse could be of any use.  Didn't seem to work out very well with just generic IO slotting on both.

[Jaxman100]

It's mostly thematic and not super reliable from what I've found.  I do think it would be more useful with the Contagious Confusion Purple IO.  It's a tool to help work around cascading defense failures. 

 

If I'm not going to be a Claws/SR Scrapper, might as well go all in on that. 

 

I had thought about just pushing the Defense bonuses as high as possible, but with quite a few Claws alts to play I went a cheaper route. 

 

Claws/SR tank, Claws/Ice Scrapper, Claws/Elec Scrapper, Claws/EA Brute, Claws/Bio Brute, Claws/Rad Scrapper not to mention all the other builds I had on Live  Dark, Fire, Invul, Regen, WP......

[InvaderStych]

On 10/3/2020 at 7:58 AM, Doomguide2005 said:

I wonder if the Stealth also carries a -threat with it.  Might explain your noticing a tendency to shed aggro.

Had a chance to check this earlier today.

 

If combat attributes are to be believed, then no, +Stealth has no effect on Threat.  She's rated at a 3 regardless of Shinobi being on or off, with or without the +Stealth IO slotted.

 

Technically, what's happening solo is that seemingly every opponent with a ranged attack will immediately run out to their maximum range, or much, much farther then return to max range before attacking again.  So, on a team that would be akin to shedding aggro (another teammate would probably pick it up), but solo it's just causing everyone to scatter like drunken, headless chickens.

 

Does anyone know what governs mob behavior regarding their choice to stay in melee or run as far away as they can before attacking from range?

 

I'll admit, I'm a bit of a 1 trick pony, I love me some melee.  I assume that on my Brutes their in-built taunt (usually in one of their toggles) keeps things in melee, and to a lesser degree similar things happen on certain Scrappers like my Kat/Rad which seems to have no issues at all keeping +/- 90% of opponents engaged in melee while solo.  I assume that's Beta Decay working nicely.

 

Maybe this is just a quirk of /Nin?  I haven't looked closely, but I doubt any of the auras/clicks include a taunt component as they all self-directed rather than pbAoE effects.

Edited October 5, 2020 by InvaderStych

[Doomguide2005]

Two thoughts:

First at least initially you can slot Karma KB protection IOs in any defense power.  Can always respec it out later. 

 

Second I'd go with 4 pts kb protection.  That's plenty sufficient to see you through until you take Bo Ryaku.  Very few attacks deliver more than 4.  And those that do usually exceed 8.  Once you get Bo Ryaku you shouldn't really need any  protection besides Bo Ryaku. 

[Doomguide2005]

@InvaderStychThere are some mobs where the AI does have them move to range and attack from there (such as Longbow Eagles iirc)  Frequently their better attacks are ranged rather than the more common melee attacks/attackers. Any foes or specific enemies you see doing this?

[InvaderStych]

6 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

@InvaderStychThere are some mobs where the AI does have them move to range and attack from there (such as Longbow Eagles iirc)  Frequently their better attacks are ranged rather than the more common melee attacks/attackers. Any foes or specific enemies you see doing this?

 

At the moment, every single type of Crey except for the ones that primarily use MA attacks - though I've seen those bail out of melee then change their mind after a few moments.

 

Even the PP's are running away the moment they get up from my initial Mass Levitate strike.

 

I'm used to the CoT ghosts running away, but when I was running through a couple CoT arcs, the mages and demons were scattering constantly.

 

Starting to think it's that Psi/Nin doesn't having anything that ticks to change their mind, like a dmg/debuff aura or similar.

Edited October 5, 2020 by InvaderStych

[SmokenBongs]

Hey all 😃

Thanks so much for all the feedback and discussion that has taken place here! You've given me lots of information to review and digest. 

One additional question I have is why Spin over Eviscerate? I tend to see people only take one or the other.

 

@Jaxman100 I see you opted for Spin, can you share some of your reasoning behind that?

To me it seems like Eviscerate would the superior skill with higher dmg and increased crit.

 

Again, I greatly appreciate everyone's time and input!!!

 

[ZacKing]

I have a claws/nin scrapper I really like.  rarely ever gets hit.  this is the build I have for him at present.

 

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[SmokenBongs]

@ZacKing I'm very intrigued by your build. I notice you have far less recharge (lack of haste) than other claws scrappers I've seen. Is that why you have both Spin and Eviscerate? For longer attack chains?

Your defensive numbers appear to be very good with this build as well.

Edited October 7, 2020 by SmokenBongs

[InvaderStych]

@SmokenBongs

 

Spin is pbAoE - full 360 degrees.  And in that example build is doing impressive damage.  +/-400 pts of pbAoE (Edit: Wait ... What?  Is Mids accurate there? That's nearly twice what I am getting out of Lotus Drops ....) on rapid recharge (every 4 secs?? wtf??? clearly I need to try Claws again ....) is a rather big sacrifice, but ymmv.  I wouldn't want to try running x8 on any scrapper without the standard pbAoE from whichever primary is in play.

 

It wouldn't be used in a regular chain tho, it's for stomping the minions that surround you without needing to take your sights off the boss.

 

@ZacKing

 

Thanks for posting the build.  I've been trying to figure out where people are getting +acc, now I'm seeing it though, all those +9% bonuses ...

 

But a related question.  Kismet +6% doesn't seem to be in play unless Unleash is toggled on in Mids.  Does it work like this in game?  I know that when I've dropped it in Combat Jumping the toggle needs to be up to get the +To-Hit, but I've never tried it in a click.

Edited October 8, 2020 by InvaderStych

[ZacKing]

11 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

Thanks for posting the build.  I've been trying to figure out where people are getting +acc, now I'm seeing it though, all those +9% bonuses ...

 

But a related question.  Kismet +6% doesn't seem to be in play unless Unleash is toggled on in Mids.  Does it work like this in game?  I know that when I've dropped it in Combat Jumping the toggle needs to be up to get the +To-Hit, but I've never tried it in a click.

Actually I don't have that in there.  my bad on posting that.  sorry man.

[Lex Talion]

12 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

@SmokenBongs

 

Spin is pbAoE - full 360 degrees.  And in that example build is doing impressive damage.  +/-400 pts of pbAoE (Edit: Wait ... What?  Is Mids accurate there? That's nearly twice what I am getting out of Lotus Drops ....)

All damage numbers of that build are assuming the 'stealth strike' bonus as long as you look at them with Shinobi-Iri active.

Untoggle Shinobi-Iri and you have more realistic numbers. (Follow Up could be stacked though)

[CaptainLupis]

20 hours ago, SmokenBongs said:

Hey all 😃

Thanks so much for all the feedback and discussion that has taken place here! You've given me lots of information to review and digest. 

One additional question I have is why Spin over Eviscerate? I tend to see people only take one or the other.

 

@Jaxman100 I see you opted for Spin, can you share some of your reasoning behind that?

To me it seems like Eviscerate would the superior skill with higher dmg and increased crit.

 

Again, I greatly appreciate everyone's time and input!!!

 

Reasons for taking Spin over eviscerate: You get it at level 6 (vs 26 for eviscerate), so you can level with it and also exemp with it right down to level 1. It's a full 360 PBAoE, compared to a cone, with (marginally) a greater range than eviscerate. Recharge and activation times are similar enough, as far as I can remember, as to not make much of a difference. And, in my opinion, the most important factor... it just looks cooler.

 

Eviscerate is fine, I would have it as well for a bit more AoE if I could squeeze it in my build, but for my purposes spin and shockwave were just better options.

 

[InvaderStych]

18 minutes ago, Lex Talion said:

All damage numbers of that build are assuming the 'stealth strike' bonus as long as you look at them with Shinobi-Iri active.

Untoggle Shinobi-Iri and you have more realistic numbers. (Follow Up could be stacked though)

 

Aaaaannnnddd.... it's so obvious now that you mention it.  I thought I had to be missing something, and I was, lol.

 

39 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

Actually I don't have that in there.  my bad on posting that.  sorry man.

 

No worries, I use that frequently, so different places to drop it could be of interest.

Edited October 8, 2020 by InvaderStych

[SmokenBongs]

Once again, thank you all for the great input and advice here!

Since all these great claw minds are gathered, can you share what you typical "attack chain looks like"? 

My main and former heroes were all more Ranged Based, so I'm still learning a lot when it comes to melee. 

 

Also, I'll be sharing the build I'm working towards soon. One that incorporates the advice I've heard in here and the builds I've reviewed. I'm hoping you all can share your input on that as well!

 

Thanks again for being such a great community!