Why I think Corruptors are taking a back seat to Defenders

[Solarverse]

The title sounds a bit of a bash toward Corruptors, but it's not. If anything it could be taken as a "Corruptors might need a buff" statement.

Having said that, here is what I have noticed. I can take two virtually identical builds and my Cold/Ice Defender shows a higher DPS than my Ice/Cold Corruptor all day every day. This is primarily due to a Defender having a much higher base damage than a Corruptor. Yes, Corruptors get Scourge, but can we be honest for a moment and realize that by the time an enemy's health is low enough for Scourge to kick in, they would have died with your next attack anyway; even without Scourge? AV fights and Bosses that Self Heal or pop T9's at the last moment would be the exception to this observation. However, just between you and I...personally I don't play Corruptors just for the AV fights at the end of a TF.

It has gotten to a point that I honestly can't even bring myself to roll a Corruptor anymore and I have shelved the ones that I do have. What I find hard about this is that I actually love Corruptors, in concept, they are a solid archetype. However, as far as I am concerned, in actual real time game play they pale in comparison to Defenders. My attacks hit much harder as a Defender and I get way better stats from my primary than my Corruptor gets from his secondary. Yet, even after this observation, I still from time to time watch in chat some guy or gal joking on Defenders; like Corruptors are so much better or something. I don't bother getting in to that conversation, but I read it and think to myself...have you even compared the stats between the two?

First, in my opinion, Corruptors are so undesirable, the only way I would play one at this point is if the Scourge chance scaled all the way from 100% Health and the chance increases to Scourge the lower the health gets...all the way to 100% chance by time the target gets within 15% Health. This would honestly be the only way I would ever personally play a Corruptor again.

I think a Corruptor's base damage is fine, maybe even lower the base damage a bit to balance out the higher chance to Scourge, but I would make Scourge much more useful and worth playing a Corruptor from time to time. But as of right now...no. I feel Defenders are far superior to Corruptors in every single way...up until a target reaches 1/8 health anyway....when I play a character, I don't want to wait until my target hits 1/8 health before I start to feel better than a Defender in damage. As a Corruptor, my secondary support is inferior to a Defender...which is fine, that is the way it should be. However, when my damage is also being out classed by a Defender as a Corruptor, I begin to feel very overshadowed.

In saying all of this, I am open to the possibility that I am just playing a Corruptor wrong, or maybe building them wrong...however, at this point I do not believe so. My character building skills are unreal...it's one thing that I am extremely skilled at...which leaves my play style. So I am willing to hear a Corruptor player who favors them a chance to prove me wrong....in this case, I literally want to be proven wrong. Otherwise, I feel as far as damage and support is concerned, Corruptors are simply taking the back seat to Defenders with the way they stand now...and it just shouldn't be that way.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Solarverse

[Lines]

I've never looked at the numbers, but more than once I've rerolled Defenders into Corruptors and preferred the experience.

 

I really feel the defender damage drop off in teams, big time, but not on Corruptors. I've never really committed to soloing a defender though. Is that where you're seeing a difference?

[Ukase]

My rule of thumb is: if soloing, play the defender, else play the corruptor. 

Granted, I don't always play with just my thumbs. For whatever reason, up to this point, I prefer the corruptor. I will give the defender a second look, though. Thanks - I was wondering what the next project was going to be!
 

[Solarverse]

Just now, Lines said:

I've never looked at the numbers, but more than once I've rerolled Defenders into Corruptors and preferred the experience.

 

I really feel the defender damage drop off in teams, big time, but not on Corruptors. I've never really committed to soloing a defender though. Is that where you're seeing a difference?

I personally see the difference on teams as well. Even looking at the stats with the damage bonus off, the Defender still has a far superior base damage than a Corruptor with most attacks. Pics below.  The first is with Vigilance and built, the second set is without vigilance and built, the third is no slots and with vigilance, the fourth is no vigilance and no slots.

[Solarverse]

So using this formula, Scourge on average gives 30% more DPS on AV's and GM's, because Minions, Lieutenants and Bosses die too quickly to make a significant difference; something that is even mentioned on the Paragon Wiki page. So even if we take the 30% on average in to consideration, if the base damage for a Corruptor is 28.5, and the base damage for a Defender without Vigilance is 36.15, that gives the Corruptor an increased base damage value of 37.05 damage per activation, but only for 30% of the Corruptor's attacks. That is just completely mind blowing for me.

Source below.

https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/Scourge

Edited October 4, 2020 by Solarverse

[EdgeOfDreams]

Hold up, something fishy is going on here.

 

Defender Ranged Damage scale is 0.65. Corruptor Ranged Damage scale is 0.75.

 

Unless Homecoming messed with something, there's simply no way a Defender's raw, unbuffed damage should be higher than a Corruptor's raw, unbuffed damage.

Edited October 4, 2020 by EdgeOfDreams

[Luminara]

3 hours ago, Solarverse said:

This is primarily due to a Defender having a much higher base damage than a Corruptor.

 

No.

[Uun]

Must be including the 30% Vigilance damage buff for defenders when solo. Otherwise, corruptors out-damage defenders before scourge.

 

[Apparition]

The Mids damage numbers for Corruptors have been too low for over a year.  It is a known bug.  Don’t use them nor rely on them.  Corruptors do more damage than Defenders, period. 

[EdgeOfDreams]

31 minutes ago, Apparition said:

The Mids damage numbers for Corruptors have been too low for over a year.  It is a known bug.  Don’t use them nor rely on them.  Corruptors do more damage than Defenders, period. 

It's gotta be something like this. 

 

Also, I just downloaded and installed the latest version of Mids Reborn. It appears to be showing the same damage for Defenders and BLASTERS. I know that's not right.

Edited October 4, 2020 by EdgeOfDreams

[Apparition]

2 minutes ago, EdgeOfDreams said:

It's gotta be something like this. 

 

Also, I just downloaded and installed the latest version of Mids Reborn. It appears to be showing the same damage for Defenders and BLASTERS. I know that's not right.

 

Yep.  The damage numbers in Mids are substantially wrong for a number of ATs.  If you really want to know how an AT performs, make a build on one of the two test servers and try it out.

 

In regards to the subject as a whole, I vastly prefer Corruptors to Defenders.  They do more damage, their buff and debuff numbers are more than good enough, and Scourge is love.

[EdgeOfDreams]

Actual in-game numbers for Ice Bolt at level 50:

• Blaster: 62.56
• Corruptor: 41.71
• Defender: 36.15

With 100% damage slotting and giving Defender the additional +30% from Vigilance while solo, those become:

• Blaster: 125.12 (plus more from Defiance)
• Corruptor: 83.42 (plus Scourge)
• Defender: 83.15

That lines up better with my own experience. Defender versus Corruptor is a toss-up when soloing, or maybe slightly in favor of the Defender on the sets with the best buffs/debuffs (e.g. Sonic Blast), but Corruptor damage is definitely better on teams and when Scourge procs against heavy targets.

Edited October 4, 2020 by EdgeOfDreams

[Solarverse]

Okay, so some of you alerted me that Mids does not show the true values for Corruptors. Oddly enough...and I do not understand why those values are terribly wrong, but those numbers are indeed incorrect.  So I went straight to character creation and compared the base values of both Corruptor and Defender and here are my disappointing, but nowhere near as disappointing results.
 

Defender Base Values at level 1

 

• Ice Bolt 9.30
• Ice Blast 15.25
• Frost Breath 13.02
• Freeze Ray 20.46
• Ice Storm 12.15
• Bitter Ice Blast 21.20
• Bitter Freeze Ray 25.67
• Blizzard 43.50

 

Corruptor Base Values at level 1

 

• Ice Bolt 9.50
• Ice Blast 15.55
• Frost Breath 13.30
• Freeze Ray 20.90
• Ice Storm 13.68
• Bitter Ice Blast 21.66
• Bitter Freeze Ray 26.22
• Blizzard 53.20

 

Personal Conclusion

 

Although my first statement is inaccurate, even after seeing these new numbers, there is barely any base value increase with most abilities. Blizzard gets credit, but outside of Blizzard, those numbers are way too close for me to justify rolling a Corruptor for the extra damage considering how much more powerful a Defender's secondaries are (not to mention the longer holds and the more powerful secondary effects of the attack powers) over a Corruptor, even taking Scourge in to consideration. And I believe those who would make fun of Defender players and ask why would anyone ever want to play one...my answer, even after standing corrected with my original inaccurate math would still be this...have you seen the numbers?

Does the minuscule base damage Corruptors have over a Defenders plus the Scourge as it sits today truly give Corruptors an edge over Defenders? Is that tiny bit of extra damage really make them worth it? Or do they at some given point in time require a looking at?

[macskull]

5 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Does the minuscule base damage Corruptors have over a Defenders plus the Scourge as it sits today truly give Corruptors an edge over Defenders? Is that tiny bit of extra damage really make them worth it?

Generally speaking, yes.

 

The more complicated answer: there are certain sets and combinations that are better on a Corruptor than on a Defender, and vice versa. If you're looking at Cold, the only way a Defender wins that is if they're Cold/Sonic. The slightly weaker debuffs are usually pretty insignificant compared to the stronger damage, so a Corruptor is dealing more damage while debuffing/buffing almost as much, and against hard targets like AVs the Corruptor will outdamage even a Blaster once Scourge kicks in.

Edited October 4, 2020 by macskull

[Lines]

Besides the difference from scourge, the difference is pretty dramatic in teams when defenders lose 30% of their damage value. Corruptors end up bringing higher damage to a team, while defenders bring significantly lower damage but better support powers.

 

So playstyle is where the difference is.

[Solarverse]

Just now, Lines said:

Besides the difference from scourge, the difference is pretty dramatic in teams when defenders lose 30% of their damage value. Corruptors end up bringing higher damage to a team, while defenders bring significantly lower damage but better support powers.

 

So playstyle is where the difference is.

Yeah, even in my last post, I am starting to think those numbers take Vigilance Solo in to account and sadly I do not see a way to shut down the Vigilance being automatically applied to those base numbers. Assuming my assumption (that is a lot of assuming at this point, especially since I am trying to make a point, that is one assumption too many) I think I am inclined to agree with you all.

Solo, Defenders wins the cake. But on Teams, it's still Corruptors for the win.

Okay folks, thank you for your input...this was very helpful and educational.

[Luminara]

12 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Yeah, even in my last post, I am starting to think those numbers take Vigilance Solo in to account and sadly I do not see a way to shut down the Vigilance being automatically applied to those base numbers.

 

In Mids', click the green button on Vigilance.

 

Outside of Mids, divide the base damage by 1.3 when the Vigilance buff is active.

[Solarverse]

47 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

In Mids', click the green button on Vigilance.

 

Outside of Mids, divide the base damage by 1.3 when the Vigilance buff is active.

I was more specifically talking about the character creation screen where you can see the stats on the powers and scale the level. As far as DPS in Mids go, I give up using that as any source of reliable damage information. I never was naive to think it was spot on, but hell, I figured it was at least close. But yeah, if you look at my screen shots on my Mids values, you'll see where I ahd turned off Vigilance there...sadly I don't think there is a way to do it in the ability information box in the character creation screen though...which really throws off the base values for Defenders there and can be very misleading in team situations.

[siolfir]

On 10/4/2020 at 1:43 PM, Solarverse said:

Okay, so some of you alerted me that Mids does not show the true values for Corruptors. Oddly enough...and I do not understand why those values are terribly wrong, but those numbers are indeed incorrect.  So I went straight to character creation and compared the base values of both Corruptor and Defender and here are my disappointing, but nowhere near as disappointing results.
 

Defender Base Values at level 1

<snip>

 

Corruptor Base Values at level 1

<snip>

 

 

 

As a side note to this discussion, never compare damage numbers below level 20, especially at level 1; to assist in low levels, the base damage modifiers for all ATs is pushed closer together and the AT modifiers aren't fully realized until the late teens.

 

Here are the damage charts from the archived City of Data:

 

 

So scale 1 damage at level 1 for ATs with a damage modifier of 1.0 (Blaster, Stalker, Widow, and Spider for melee, Widow and Spider for ranged) is 10.0 damage. Those are the baselines, so to get the "AT modifier" you just divide their damage by the Widow or Spider column damage.

 

That means that ATs have the following relative modifiers for at these levels:

AT	Ranged (1)	Melee (1)	Ranged (10)	Melee (10)	Ranged (20)	Melee (20)
Blaster	1.025	1.0	1.0625	1.0	1.125	1.0
Brute	0.90	0.95	0.75	0.875	0.50	0.75
Controller	0.91	0.91	0.775	0.775	0.55	0.55
Corruptor	0.95	0.95	0.875	0.875	0.75	0.75
Defender	0.93	0.91	0.825	0.775	0.65	0.55
Dominator	0.99	1.01	0.975	1.025	0.95	1.05
Kheldian	0.96	0.97	0.90	0.925	0.80	0.85
Mastermind	0.91	0.91	0.775	0.775	0.55	0.55
Stalker	0.92	1.0	0.80	1.0	0.60	1.0
Scrapper	0.90	1.025	0.75	1.0625	0.50	1.125
Tanker	0.90	0.96	0.75	0.90	0.50	0.80

 

Note that this archive is from 2016, so is before the Brute ranged modifier was changed to match the melee value and the Tanker ranged and melee modifiers were changed, so take those only as an example of the overall point of "the numbers are compressed towards 1.0 early and settle into their final values by level 20, so comparing damage values at level 1 is just plain wrong."

Edited October 6, 2020 by siolfir
removed second "closer" - was too busy making the table to proofread

[Luminara]

10 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

I was more specifically talking about the character creation screen where you can see the stats on the powers and scale the level. As far as DPS in Mids go, I give up using that as any source of reliable damage information. I never was naive to think it was spot on, but hell, I figured it was at least close. But yeah, if you look at my screen shots on my Mids values, you'll see where I ahd turned off Vigilance there...sadly I don't think there is a way to do it in the ability information box in the character creation screen though...which really throws off the base values for Defenders there and can be very misleading in team situations.

 

I know the real base value is displayed somewhere, without the 30% buff.  Checking a power using the [Power Name] linking system should work.  Teaming and looking at power info would work, too.  But in the character creator... yeah, I see what you're saying.  Might be something the HC team could spare a little time to fix.

 

The math approach is still valid, and simple enough for anyone to do (computer, smart phone, pencil and paper, everyone's got something they can use to make the calculation), so there is that option for anyone who needs the info.  Could see about making a post in the Defender forum and having a GM sticky it so more people are aware.

[Solarverse]

9 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

I know the real base value is displayed somewhere, without the 30% buff.  Checking a power using the [Power Name] linking system should work.  Teaming and looking at power info would work, too.  But in the character creator... yeah, I see what you're saying.  Might be something the HC team could spare a little time to fix.

 

The math approach is still valid, and simple enough for anyone to do (computer, smart phone, pencil and paper, everyone's got something they can use to make the calculation), so there is that option for anyone who needs the info.  Could see about making a post in the Defender forum and having a GM sticky it so more people are aware.

Indeed, it sure threw me for a false loop...big time.

[EdgeOfDreams]

I'm 90% sure that Vigilance is NOT being applied when you look at it in the in-game character creation process. What's confusing you is the stuff siolfir pointed out. You're comparing the powers at level 1, which is not a valid comparison. Compare the powers with the slider pulled over to 50 instead.

[Riverdusk]

As has been pointed out, corrupters do have the better base damage, especially at higher levels once the AT scales start to kick in, NOT at level 1.  If you are solo though and have vigilance going the damage difference mostly kind of disappears.  Then it comes down to the bigger reason, procs.

 

You can proc up a defender to do better damage than a corrupter, honestly even while on a team and without the vigilance boost.  You could say, "well the corrupter can proc up too", and you'd be right, but the defender tends to have more room/slots for procs with their buff/debuff numbers being better.   Defenders don't tend to have to chase as many set bonuses to reach most people's goals.  So it is easier to build a "proc monster" as a defender typically.  You are then outdamaging a corrupter and you have better buffs/debuff to go with it.   There are exceptions of course like ice blast not being bad for a corrupter because rains don't tend to proc very well and at the same time do scourge well.  Or kinetics where you can try and take advantage of the corrupter's higher damage cap. 

 

But in general it is the one situation where I can understand the call of some that procs should be subject to the AT damage scale.

 

Personally though I'd rather see corrupters get a bit of a boost, and the easiest one is to up the health point at where scourge kicks in as that is kind of their cool "thing". Heck, you could even limit it to just upping the scourge chance only while solo to offset the weirdness that defenders now solo better than corrupters do.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Riverdusk

[kiramon]

I think cor damage needs to get closer to blasters. Let’s go up

to 100

 

so it’s 

 

120 - blaster

100 - cor

80 - defender 

 

okay thx

[skoryy]

Scourge just needs improvement somewhere to give corrs a boost when dealing with non-AV/GM.