Suggestion for TW on Scrappers.

[BlueValkyrie]

So we were talking on General in Everlasting when we came up with some ideas on the TW/Scrapper issue.  Since we know it's getting changed as it is currently OP as hell I thought I would post some of the thoughts here to get some more feedback.

 

One of the major issues with TW on Scappers is the combination of Mechanics that allow them to do insane amounts of damage in a brief amount of time.  This is a combination of the Momentum mechanic, the Scrapper ATO that grats a +50% crit rate and the damage spike and instant momentum provided by build up.   My TW/BIo has Gaussians +chance for buildup on my Build Momentum, which means I can get a 200% damage spike, and a +50% crit proc with defensive sweep.  The number of attacks I can execute in that time is what makes the overall set just insaine. 

 

So the Idea was to adjust how momentum works, rather than having you hit once and suddenly have the cast times of several abilities reduced to 0, each attack reduces the cast time of your abilities for a few seconds.  The effect would stack, say Defensive sweep reduces cast time by 15-20%, then Titan sweep or Crushing Blow reduces by 20-25%.  Once you hit 100% you gain momentum and all your cast times are instant for a few seconds then you reset. Basically momentum is something you have to accumulate rather than just instantly given.  This makes it much less likely you're going to proc your +50% crit rate at the start of your momentum, but it is still possible. 

 

Another concept is to change the function of Build Momentum, of course it would have to be renamed. But a couple ideas were to have its damage buff reduced but instead have it grant a higher crit chance, say 5-10% for a few seocnds, and/or have it reset the cooldowns on all TW abilities.

 

Anyway, just some ideas on general chat in hopes that TW doesn't get nerfed too far into the ground. 

[Outrider_01]

1 hour ago, BlueValkyrie said:

TW/Scrapper issue.....OP as hell

Exactly how many play this "OP" power set?  Cause I have seen fewer than 20 and most are either low level or getting PL, yet everything standing in AE is pretty much in no particular order Rad/Fire, Spine/Fire, SS/Fire brutes, and the odd bal lethal/ Smashing farm, the few Defense sets like shield PL for some reason, a kinetic, a rad debuff, and people asking for a PL.  Outside AE, most are normal fast animation attacks as cause minions are dead to Ion Judgment and fire balls.

 

tl;dr don't see it played, its strong but not popular because of the animation wind up.  Its not the era of Fire/Kin farming

[Vanden]

1 hour ago, BlueValkyrie said:

So the Idea was to adjust how momentum works, rather than having you hit once and suddenly have the cast times of several abilities reduced to 0, each attack reduces the cast time of your abilities for a few seconds.  The effect would stack, say Defensive sweep reduces cast time by 15-20%, then Titan sweep or Crushing Blow reduces by 20-25%.  Once you hit 100% you gain momentum and all your cast times are instant for a few seconds then you reset. Basically momentum is something you have to accumulate rather than just instantly given.  This makes it much less likely you're going to proc your +50% crit rate at the start of your momentum, but it is still possible. 

This would be incredibly complicated to implement. The way TW works now, there's effectively two powers in the database for every power with a fast and slow variant. If you use a power with no Momentum, the game calls one power, and if you use the same power with Momentum, the game calls another. To have 3 or 4 different levels of speed, you would need to have 3 or 4 versions of every individual attacks. And of course that means 3 or 4 animations for every power. It's a ton of overhead.

[Infinitum]

22 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

Exactly how many play this "OP" power set?  Cause I have seen fewer than 20 and most are either low level or getting PL, yet everything standing in AE is pretty much in no particular order Rad/Fire, Spine/Fire, SS/Fire brutes, and the odd bal lethal/ Smashing farm, the few Defense sets like shield PL for some reason, a kinetic, a rad debuff, and people asking for a PL.  Outside AE, most are normal fast animation attacks as cause minions are dead to Ion Judgment and fire balls.

 

tl;dr don't see it played, its strong but not popular because of the animation wind up.  Its not the era of Fire/Kin farming

Early on when i first came to Homecoming in may of 2019, a few months in after getting my feet wet and acquainted with the game again - i wanted to build the most damaging character possible - everything pointed to TW.  So i built and leveled my TW elec brute and while somewhat fun-and different -  didnt really measure up to what i would have considered OP, and definately didnt feel smooth to me.  I argued that till I was blue in the face. (i still dont think TW is as op on the rest as it is on scrappers - most notable being combined with Bio) I really didnt enjoy TW leveling and gave it up after about 2 months.

 

But.

 

I have since seen many examples of how stupid TW can be, and there is no other way to slice it other than it needing to be adjusted some.  Will it need to be the same for Scrappers - tankers - and brutes -  who knows?  If evidence eventually shows those need a boost after its adjusted im sure appropriate measures will be taken to fix it where needed.

 

This falls into the category of just because i dont enjoy it or build it to abuse it, or see it as being OP - doesnt mean it cant be abused.  So there are ways to make TW do stupid stuff that i never really wanted to explore - that doesnt change that it is possible to do it.

 

If anything, changes to it may make it more user friendly, but either way i dont see a nerf from orbit old school EM style on TW.

[Outrider_01]

2 hours ago, Infinitum said:

I have since seen many examples of how stupid TW can be

I didn't get to finish, at work.

 

OP tends to be powerful, which the masses tend to be drawn towards in any gamr.  Like Rad/Fire brutes, its OP at how powerful it is at farming. 

 

TW just hits like truck, its clumsy as hell with the wind up and not popular because of it.

 

Better definition is TW is very strong and kicks out high numbers but because of Momentum mechanics its unpopular.  Its OP in just a few players who can utilize it, but OP like a rad/fire brute is in a farm you can't stand in AE for long without suffering radiation burns.

[BrandX]

That may be the real problem.  TW may in the right hands be insanely powerful.  Those right hands seem to account for 5 people.  😛

[Infinitum]

12 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

I didn't get to finish, at work.

 

OP tends to be powerful, which the masses tend to be drawn towards in any gamr.  Like Rad/Fire brutes, its OP at how powerful it is at farming. 

 

TW just hits like truck, its clumsy as hell with the wind up and not popular because of it.

 

Better definition is TW is very strong and kicks out high numbers but because of Momentum mechanics its unpopular.  Its OP in just a few players who can utilize it, but OP like a rad/fire brute is in a farm you can't stand in AE for long without suffering radiation burns.

Well, I get what you are saying and totally agree with it feeling clumsy.

 

I have to dispute the notion of the Rad/Fire brute.  It's specialized for 1 type of content and OP at that, but very much gimped to much of the other content.

 

TW is OP to all in the right hands, and decent to most in all circumstances.

2 hours ago, BrandX said:

That may be the real problem.  TW may in the right hands be insanely powerful.  Those right hands seem to account for 5 people.  😛

It's a bit more than that.  But yeah the main issue is the metrics surrounding TW break every formula.  Including what makes it clumsy and not liked by some.

 

So a good fix would be making it a better set all around that functions well in the game for all.

[Tsuko]

[Outrider_01]

16 hours ago, Infinitum said:

I have to dispute the notion of the Rad/Fire brute.  It's specialized for 1 type of content and OP at that, but very much gimped to much of the other content.

Rad/Fire brute and TW/What ever scrapper are totally different, the thing in common is optimizing for that specific task.  Rad/Fire for a farm, TW/What ever scrapper for everything else.  Thats the only thing in common, the optimization for "OP" but TW/Scrapper is not OP for the masses at large; just for a few players who excel at playing it.  Animation time is what kills it for most people.  

 

On 10/9/2020 at 1:23 PM, BlueValkyrie said:

the Scrapper ATO that grats a +50% crit rate

Thats what makes the TW/Scrapper OP.  The set itself is fine; clumsy animation for the masses that fear it and those few who can utilize are masochists the elite.  Sure, it could use a tweak but for scrappers its that ATO; I recall a few brutes/tanks but the rest I saw in the DFB runs and pretty sure they never made it very high.

 

Broke out my TW/Elec brute farmer (energy farm) and remember why I was not impressed; first week it was cool...then got tired of the animation time cause this guy wasn't fully optimized; was a fun project but kind of disappointing.  Found a guy who had a DM/Elec tank for energy farms today so I joined him with my brute; hits were weak and it was +2, that lack of optimization and a short struggle to kill even minions was making me 😭.  It worked; it just wasn't OP so its got to be that scrapper ATO that everybody crying doom and gloom over.

 

  

14 minutes ago, Tsuko said:

 

Spoiler

 

God punches this guy person every time this meme is used, and was hoping they had finally been forgotten.

 

note: looked this person up.  Not what you seem, so correcting myself as they identify differently.

Edited October 11, 2020 by Outrider_01

[Infinitum]

16 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

Thats the only thing in common, the optimization for "OP" but TW/Scrapper is not OP for the masses at large; just for a few players who excel at playing it.  Animation time is what kills it for most people.  

Thats kinda like saying nuclear weapons aren't explosive because rogue country (insert name here) doesnt know how to make them.

[Myrmidon]

On 10/9/2020 at 5:26 PM, Vanden said:

This would be incredibly complicated to implement. The way TW works now, there's effectively two powers in the database for every power with a fast and slow variant. If you use a power with no Momentum, the game calls one power, and if you use the same power with Momentum, the game calls another. To have 3 or 4 different levels of speed, you would need to have 3 or 4 versions of every individual attacks. And of course that means 3 or 4 animations for every power. It's a ton of overhead.

Not to mention that something like that would likely need a beta test all to itself.

[Outrider_01]

17 hours ago, Infinitum said:

Thats kinda like saying nuclear weapons aren't explosive because rogue country (insert name here) doesnt know how to make them.

Nukes don't really need to explode, thats just for boom factor.  From what I read, couple of guys killed themselves from radioactive exposure playing with nuclear material used in the earliest bombs and holding components apart with a screw driver or handling metallic bricks then dropping them "for science" while wearing ordinary day clothes.

 

Even everyday common Honda, Mitsubishi, and Nissan cars are optimized for racing.  Not on the level of a formula 500, but definitely not your average driver going to work.

[Infinitum]

1 hour ago, Outrider_01 said:

Nukes don't really need to explode, thats just for boom factor. 

Uh, what?   lol. You cant be serious.

 

The energy released from a nuclear reaction creates the shockwave and explosion magnitudes greater than conventional weapons.

 

Yes nuclear material can still be deadly but not on that magnitude.  And yes a nuclear device dropped could still kill on impact from kinetic energy but that's not what we are talking about here.

 

For the capable, TW is deadly and breaks all the rules by any standard - it doesnt matter how popular it is, thats what it does.

[Tsuko]

16 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

For the capable, TW is deadly and breaks all the rules by any standard - it doesnt matter how popular it is, thats what it does.

 

nO !!! mY tITaN wEaPOn iS pErFeCTly oKAy !!! 

 

Having 500/600 dps in a build think to be immortal is 

 

[Galaxy Brain]

Gonna chime in here to show actual work done to compare TW to every other melee primary (On Scrappers) to show the gap:

 

 

 

Pulling the data from the runs on an SO build with X/Willpower on 0/3 difficulty on 10 runs a piece, the results I think speak for themselves when you look at TW:

 

It is over half a minute faster than the #2 fastest average, which in turn sort of scales down set by set until we hit Kinetic melee which is the same gap but on the opposite end of the spectrum (that needs a look...). It also has stellar survivability ratings with its combination of reliable AoE CC and self +Def which lets it scale up much easier against more threatening foes, and even a force multiplier power. 

 

TW isn't even necessarily slow. The initial swing can take a moment, but your next 4-5 attacks all animate within about 1 second making it a 1 to 5 ratio of Slow to Fast, it just feels slow due to how you always gotta start off slow. The only drawback is that yes, it can eat end pretty harshly but most all Armor sets have an endurance tool + good builds (not even top end) build out the need for end management most of the time.

 

TW leads the pack by a good margin even at the baseline level in multiple criteria, not just 1 setting like a Spines/Fire. That is what warrants a look.

[Leogunner]

I've heard a lot of feedback about TW being clunky and unwieldly.  Maybe I'm biased but isn't that the point?  The weapon is supposed to feel heavy and that feel is emulated by having a slow wind up as well as big boomy effects (the AoE, KD and damage, not the sound fx).  Even with the intentionally clunky mechanics, it's not even that bad.  Who cares if you're stuck in a long animation if you've got nearly an entire spawn taking a seat while you do it.

 

Again, I'm not saying you should like it for it's clunkiness but that was supposed to be the price of its effectiveness.  Granted, if they removed that aspect from the set while bringing it's mechanics/damage in line with others, that would be a disappointment.  Instead, why not just get rid of the +def and the -res?  Leave everything else the same lol

[golstat2003]

3 hours ago, Leogunner said:

I've heard a lot of feedback about TW being clunky and unwieldly.  Maybe I'm biased but isn't that the point?  The weapon is supposed to feel heavy and that feel is emulated by having a slow wind up as well as big boomy effects (the AoE, KD and damage, not the sound fx).  Even with the intentionally clunky mechanics, it's not even that bad.  Who cares if you're stuck in a long animation if you've got nearly an entire spawn taking a seat while you do it.

 

Again, I'm not saying you should like it for it's clunkiness but that was supposed to be the price of its effectiveness.  Granted, if they removed that aspect from the set while bringing it's mechanics/damage in line with others, that would be a disappointment.  Instead, why not just get rid of the +def and the -res?  Leave everything else the same lol

I . . . don't give a rats ass about it's effectiveness. If feels terrible to play. That was enough for me to shelve mine indefinitely. And I actually played it from 1-50. Painfully.  I was waiting for when it would get fun to play.

 

I am happy they are reworking the mechanic.

Edited October 12, 2020 by golstat2003

[Myrmidon]

On 10/11/2020 at 12:32 AM, Tsuko said:

Oh look, there’s one of The Five now.

[Naraka]

6 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

I . . . don't give a rats ass about it's effectiveness. If feels terrible to play. That was enough for me to shelve mine indefinitely. And I actually played it from 1-50. Painfully.  I was waiting for when it would get fun to play.

 

I am happy they are reworking the mechanic.

So? Do you play Mercs MM? Or MA Stalker? I don't think the game will end just because there's a set you don't like to play lol

Edited October 12, 2020 by Naraka

[golstat2003]

2 hours ago, Naraka said:

So? Do you play Mercs MM? Or MA Stalker? I don't think the game will end just because there's a set you don't like to play lol

I never said it would. What a weird ass out of left field assumption to make.

 

But the devs have already said that they are reworking the set. Soooooo argument over? 😛

[Leogunner]

9 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

I . . . don't give a rats ass about it's effectiveness. If feels terrible to play. That was enough for me to shelve mine indefinitely. And I actually played it from 1-50. Painfully.  I was waiting for when it would get fun to play.

 

I am happy they are reworking the mechanic.

Ok, do you want a cookie?

 

Feeling terrible to play is just that: a feeling.  While you're entitled to your opinion, I frankly don't give a rat's ass about it.  

 

As for how they are reworking the set, they haven't put down numbers so I wouldn't go celebrating just yet.  And do try not to shoot yourself in the foot with your own bravado, the devs can just as easily roll back changes during beta when so much "feelings" get thrown about, it drowns out genuine criticism.

[golstat2003]

2 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Ok, do you want a cookie?

 

Feeling terrible to play is just that: a feeling.  While you're entitled to your opinion, I frankly don't give a rat's ass about it.  

 

As for how they are reworking the set, they haven't put down numbers so I wouldn't go celebrating just yet.  And do try not to shoot yourself in the foot with your own bravado, the devs can just as easily roll back changes during beta when so much "feelings" get thrown about, it drowns out genuine criticism.

If I like the change (I suspsect I will based on what HC has been doing in past issues/pages) and it makes it through I'll play it. If not then I simply keep not playing it.

 

Not sure what the issue is with expressing a contrary opinion about a set. lol

 

/shrug.

 

Edited October 12, 2020 by golstat2003

[Leogunner]

5 minutes ago, golstat2003 said:

Then I simply keep not playing it.

 

Not sure what the issue is with expressing a contrary opinion about a set. lol

 

/shrug.

 

That wasn't a question, just a piece of advice.

[nihilii]

Arguments against TW being OP always stretch the fabric of reality. "I don't see ANY TW/bio scrapper! It's strong but it's NOT popular!"

 

About that...

...we have actual data from the developers back in March showing TW/bio was topping the popularity chart for scrappers.

By a HUGE margin compared to any other combo, save for Elec/Shield.

 

And Titan Weapons itself is the most common primary in level 50 scrappers. By a healthy (+~50%) margin over the second place.

Yes, TW scrappers don't overshadow everything else to the ridiculous extent fire brutes do. It's understandable if you can't spot trends unless they're really obvious, but that doesn't mean the trends don't exist. When in doubt, hard data beats personal perception.

[GM Tempest]

Please keep it civil!