Super Strength changes & proliferation to Scrappers and Stalkers

[Vanden]

I wanted to get these ideas I had for Super Strength off my chest before it gets its official Homecoming Looking-At™ and it becomes a moot point.

 

Brutes and Tankers

 

Power order changes

• Punch moved to T1 (from T2)
• Jab moved to T2 (from T1)
• (Tanker) Hurl moved to T5 (from T8)
• (Brute) Hurl moved to T4 (from T8)
• Hand Clap moved to T8 (from T5 (Tanker)/T4 (Brute))

 

Powers

Jab

• On a successful hit, applies a non-stacking 20% resist debuff on target for 4 seconds and non-stacking 10% defense (Tanker)/7.5% defense (Brute) to all on self for 4 seconds
• Now takes Defense Buff IOs
• This gives the power a unique niche where you willingly lower your own DPS to improve your survivability and weaken the enemy for your team.

 

Hurl

• Damage scale 1.64 -> 2.92
• Recharge 8s -> 16s
• Endurance cost 9.36 -> 15.184
• When activated within 7 feet of the target, it becomes a targeted AoE with the following stats:
  • 8-foot radius
  • Scale 1.327 damage
  • 50% chance of .67 magnitude knock
  • 5 target maximum (10 on Tankers)
• Now accepts both Ranged Damage IOs and PBAoE damage IOs
• This shores up Super Strength's early AoE potential

 

Foot Stomp

• Tankers only: Radius reduced to 12 feet. Now benefits from Gauntlet's AoE size increase
• Foot Stomp gets a 5-foot bonus to its radius with no corresponding change to end cost, recharge, or damage. This bonus is moot on Tankers, who get a 5-foot bonus to radius to every 10-foot AoE anyway thanks to their inherent. This change lets Tankers still get some benefit from that bonus.

 

Rage

• Damage buff reduced to 40%
• Now adds a Smashing damage proc equal to 40% of the base damage to all powers that take damage enhancements
• The damage buff stacks, the damage proc does not
• This curtails Rage's bonuses at high recharge while leaving lower-recharge builds at roughly the same performance
• No change to the crash, because other changes give you the tools to mitigate it if you need to; the Smashing damage proc is unaffected by the damage debuff, and Jab can help mitigate the defense debuff.

 

Proliferation to Scrappers and Stalkers

 

Power Order

Scrapper:

• Jab
• Punch
• Haymaker
• Might
• Hurl
• Confront
• Knockout Blow
• Hand Clap
• Foot Stomp

Stalker:

• Jab
• Punch
• Haymaker
• Assassin's Strike
• Build Up
• Placate
• Hurl
• Knockout Blow
• Foot Stomp

 

Powers

Jab

• Damage scale 0.68 -> 0.92
• Recharge 2s -> 3.5s
• End Cost 3.536 -> 4.784
• Does not have the -Resistance or +Defense effects

 

Punch

• Damage scale 1 -> 1.32
• Recharge 4s -> 6s
• End Cost 5.2 -> 6.864

 

Haymaker

• Damage scale 1.64 -> 2.12
• Recharge 8s -> 11s
• End Cost 8.528 -> 11.024

 

Might

• A new power to replace Rage for Scrappers
• 50% damage buff for 10s
• 30% damage buff for 20s
• 20% ToHit buff for 40s
• 135s Recharge

 

Knockout Blow

• Criticals for only 35% more damage
• +1 Mag to the Hold effect on critical
• 15% chance to critical all targets (Scrappers only, Stalkers have their normal scaling critical chance on teams)

 

 

Stalkers only

• All attacks give a stacking ToHit Buff on self with a successful ToHit roll. The strength and duration of the ToHit buff is determined by the cast time and recharge of the attack, similar to Blaster Defiance buffs.

 

 

Just wanted to get these ideas I've had kicking around in my head out there. By the law of "You Said Rage," this is now a Rage thread. So go on, have at it!

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Vanden
Now with proliferation

[Troo]

IS this focused more for Brutes or Tankers, set proliferation?

[Vanden]

On 10/15/2020 at 10:26 AM, Troo said:

IS this focused more for Brutes or Tankers, set proliferation?

I don’t even want to think about what it would take to proliferate this set. I don’t envy @Captain Powerhouse there.

 

Edit: I thought about it

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by Vanden
I thought about it

[Solarverse]

I use Hand Clap as my damage mitigation while leveling anything SS. If it got moved to T8, it would be useless by that point. Not a fan of that one particular idea. The rest is fine.

[Vanden]

9 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

I use Hand Clap as my damage mitigation while leveling anything SS. If it got moved to T8, it would be useless by that point. Not a fan of that one particular idea. The rest is fine.

Jab and Hurl would serve much the same purpose.

[FrauleinMental]

31 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Jab and Hurl would serve much the same purpose.

They really wouldn't.  The PBAoE Disorient is clutch at low to mid levels in a way that two single-target attacks don't match.

 

Frankly, the only reason my WP/SS tanker took Hurl was to slot a Ranged IO set.

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, FrauleinMental said:

They really wouldn't.  The PBAoE Disorient is clutch at low to mid levels in a way that two single-target attacks don't match.

Hurl would be an AoE knockdown when used in melee and Jab would give a defense bonus. Neither are simple single-target attacks.

[chi1701]

Wouldnt mind seeing foot stomp switch places with knockout blow. As a tank, having to wait till 38 for an aoe damage ability is annoying especially when exemplered, least tanks have aoe taunt.

[Supertanker]

I think Super Strength is mostly fine. The only power people don't seem to like it Rage because of the crash. So while I don't think we NEED a change, here's my little idea for the set anyway:

 

1. Change Rage to some passive defense power like Tough Hide (having Super Strength would naturally make you a little tougher.)

 

2. Super Strength users now have a "Strength Level" (a nod to the old Marvel Universe Handbooks.) Just choosing Super Strength makes you Strength Level 1, plus one Strength Level for every power picked from the set, up to Strength Level 10. Each Strength Level gives +2% ToHit and +6% Damage, up a maximum of +20% ToHit and +60% Damage.

 

If that's not overpowered enough, I'd also make Hurl a Targeted AoE attack. It feels weird throwing a big chunk of debris into a crowd and only hitting one guy.

[Monos King]

18 hours ago, Vanden said:

This gives the power a unique niche where you willingly lower your own DPS to improve your survivability and weaken the enemy for your team.

Very enriched way of saying I'm using a power that doesn't hit that hard because I like its effects lol

 

18 hours ago, Vanden said:

Rage

• Damage buff reduced to 40%
• Now adds a Smashing damage proc equal to 40% of the base damage to all powers that take damage enhancements
• The damage buff stacks, the damage proc does not
• This curtails Rage's bonuses at high recharge while leaving lower-recharge builds at roughly the same performance
• No change to the crash, because other changes give you the tools to mitigate it if you need to; the Smashing damage proc is unaffected by the damage debuff, and Jab can help mitigate the defense debuff.

This is cool, and I've been trying to see stuff like the smashing dmg proc anywhere for a while. Wonder how there would be objections to this.

[Solarverse]

14 hours ago, Vanden said:

Hurl would be an AoE knockdown when used in melee and Jab would give a defense bonus. Neither are simple single-target attacks.

Why not just make Hand Clap an AoE Knock Down instead of changing Hurl in to one?

[Vanden]

1 hour ago, Solarverse said:

Why not just make Hand Clap an AoE Knock Down instead of changing Hurl in to one?

The ultimate goal of the Hurl change would be to improve Super Strength's AoE at lower levels. Putting a new AoE attack at tier 8 doesn't really help that, especially for Tankers, who'd be getting an AoE attack all of 3 levels earlier than they do currently. Adding damage to Hand Clap doesn't really work, IMO, because at 30s recharge and 15-foot radius, it'd be stronger than Foot Stomp according to the damage formulas, and just giving it less damage than the math would have it do feels like a letdown. Hurl could really use some kind of buff anyway because of how slow it is, and I think they're up against the limit of how fast they can make that animation without making it look goofy, so just making it faster isn't a promising prospect, either. There's not a lot of room in Super Strength to add earlier AoE without moving Hand Clap, or nerfing its crowd control ability to justify bringing down the recharge. Really the only other option is changing Haymaker, and then the set would only have two viable single-target attacks for a good attack chain (Hurl is too slow, and Jab's damage is garbage).

Edited October 16, 2020 by Vanden

[Vanden]

Moved this stuff to OP

Edited October 16, 2020 by Vanden

[ShardWarrior]

On 10/15/2020 at 1:53 PM, Vanden said:

Hurl would be an AoE knockdown when used in melee and Jab would give a defense bonus. Neither are simple single-target attacks.

I like this idea!

[Solarverse]

On 10/15/2020 at 1:53 PM, Vanden said:

Hurl would be an AoE knockdown when used in melee and Jab would give a defense bonus. Neither are simple single-target attacks.

Yeah, but only 7 feet? Hand Clap not only has the knock down (at least it's knock down for me because I put a KB to KD in mine) but it also has a nice stun effect. It's the Fault of Super Strength. And if we moved it to T8, what use would it serve at this point? It's the same exact power, no suggested changes, you simply lose out on your best damage mitigator in the set in place for a smaller radius knock down, that also does not stun. So in one hand, you make a power better, but you utterly kill the other power and make it pointless to put in to the build.

Now, if you wanted to make Hand Clap do AoE (perhaps a small DoT?) Damage, make it require a target, and give it range (much like Fault has Range) and THEN move it to T8, I think that would completely justify the change and the move to T8 with Hand Clap.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Solarverse

[Vanden]

20 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

Yeah, but only 7 feet? Hand Clap not only has the knock down (at least it's knock down for me because I put a KB to KD in mine) but it also has a nice stun effect. It's the Fault of Super Strength. And if we moved it to T8, what use would it serve at this point? It's the same exact power, no suggested changes, you simply lose out on your best damage mitigator in the set in place for a smaller radius knock down, that also does not stun. So in one hand, you make a power better, but you utterly kill the other power and make it pointless to put in to the build.

Now, if you wanted to make Hand Clap do AoE Damage, make it require a target, and give it range (much like Fault has Range) and THEN move it to T8, I think that would completely justify the change and the move to T8 with Hand Clap.

Hurl would not just be AoE knockdown, but also AoE damage, helping you actually defeat the enemies that surround you. Not 100% knockdown, true, but 50% knockdown with nearly half the recharge of Hand Clap is roughly equal over time. And the stun in Hand Clap is only 100% on minions and 50% on lieutenants, no chance of affecting bosses, while the defense buff from Jab affects everything equally. I suspect you still come out slightly behind in survivability, but not by that much, and the gains in offense feel worth it to me.

 

Edited October 16, 2020 by Vanden

[Solarverse]

11 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Hurl would not just be AoE knockdown, but also AoE damage, helping you actually defeat the enemies that surround you. Not 100% knockdown, true, but 50% knockdown with nearly half the recharge of Hand Clap is roughly equal over time. And the stun in Hand Clap is only 100% on minions and 50% on Lieutenants, no chance of affecting bosses, while the defense buff from Jab affects everything equally.

Radius of an AoE is important though, especially as a Tank. And with this proposal we are suggesting to swap a radius of 15 feet Hand Clap with a 7 foot Hurl. Then we are still left with how Hand Clap will be moved to a place in which will for sure make that power the unwanted power in the set, since people will now have to wait until level 35 to pick it up. Where as before, Hurl had that unwanted spot that most players (at least I do) skip. Hand Clap as it stands serves a far better purpose at the lower levels due to the need for that extra damage mitigation since it comes with the stun. Yes, the stun is best for minions and only half of Lieutenants, however, at low levels when a Tank has many holes in their resistance and defense, that is a very welcomed mitigation tool...especially against Vhaz and all that Toxic Damage.

If you could implement these changes without moving Hand Clap, you would have me at a far better position to back you on this. As you can see, the move of Hand Clap is pretty much my only issue with your proposed suggestion.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Solarverse

[Vanden]

Just now, Solarverse said:

Radius of an AoE is important though, especially as a Tank. And with this proposal we are suggesting to swap a radius of 15 feet Hand Clap with a 7 foot Hurl.

The Radius is 8 feet, not 7, and with the Tanker inherent that goes up to 12 feet. And the need for extra damage mitigation won't be as strong, with the extra AoE damage letting you defeat enemies faster.

[Solarverse]

Just now, Vanden said:

The Radius is 8 feet, not 7, and with the Tanker inherent that goes up to 12 feet. And the need for extra damage mitigation won't be as strong, with the extra AoE damage letting you defeat enemies faster.

Yeah, was not thinking about that point. Well, I have said my peace on it, I'll kick back and see what others think and see how the community feels about it over all. Right now I am on the fence here.

[Vanden]

2 hours ago, Solarverse said:

Yeah, was not thinking about that point. Well, I have said my peace on it, I'll kick back and see what others think and see how the community feels about it over all. Right now I am on the fence here.

I get it, no worries. There just really isn’t a good way to get more AoE early in the set without affecting Hand Clap. You can either move it like I did while leaving the power itself unchanged, or mess with the recharge and radius so it doesn’t outperform Foot Stomp, which would also necessitate nerfing the stun.

 

Or I guess you could put Foot Stomp earlier and make Hand Clap the t9 with damage, but Foot Stomp is already excellent so adding an even stronger AoE to the set seems like a major overcorrection.

Edited October 17, 2020 by Vanden

[Sarrate]

On 10/15/2020 at 6:22 AM, Vanden said:

Rage

• Damage buff reduced to 40%
• Now adds a Smashing damage proc equal to 40% of the base damage to all powers that take damage enhancements
• The damage buff stacks, the damage proc does not
• This curtails Rage's bonuses at high recharge while leaving lower-recharge builds at roughly the same performance
• No change to the crash, because other changes give you the tools to mitigate it if you need to; the Smashing damage proc is unaffected by the damage debuff, and Jab can help mitigate the defense debuff.

I think you're mistaken on the last bullet - in the long run, Rage's 10s damage debuff outweighs any advantages of stacking Rage:

 

Current Rage – Zero Stacking
Dmg	Rage+Dmg	RageProc	Duration	DmgOverDur
1.95	0.8	0	120	330
0.1	0	0	10	1
			TotalDmg:	331
Proposed Rage – Zero Stacking
Dmg	Rage+Dmg	RageProc	Duration	DmgOverDur
1.95	0.4	0.4	120	330
0.1	0	0	10	1
			TotalDmg:	331
Proposed Rage – 10s Stack
Dmg	Rage+Dmg	RageProc	Duration	DmgOverDur
1.95	0.4	0.4	110	302.5
0.1	0	0.4	10	5
			TotalDmg:	307.5
Current Rage – 10s Stack
Dmg	Rage+Dmg	RageProc	Duration	DmgOverDur
1.95	0.8	0	110	302.5
0.1	0	0	10	1
			TotalDmg:	303.5
Current Rage – 50s Stack
Dmg	Rage+Dmg	RageProc	Duration	DmgOverDur
1.95	1.6	0	50	177.5
0.1	0	0	10	1
			TotalDmg:	178.5
Proposed Rage - 50s Stack
Dmg	Rage+Dmg	RageProc	Duration	DmgOverDur
1.95	0.8	0.4	50	157.5
0.1	0	0.4	10	5
			TotalDmg:	162.5

 

You have to keep in mind that during those 10s you're losing out on not just base damage, but all enhancements, and any other damage buffs (from a team, lore pets, inspirations, etc). The more you stack, the larger a percent of your time you're in a debuffed state (perma double stack it's 10 / 60 = 16.667% of the time). It gives extremely strong burst damage, however.

 

Additionally, you'll probably use attacks differently during the debuff windows - you may hold off on firing KO Blow until after the window, or (using your example) use Jab to mitigate it.

 

It gets a little more complicated, however, if you consider other powers to get around the debuff (Sands of Mu, Judgement, etc).

 

 

Note: I have nothing against Rage's crash. It's an incredibly powerful ability and I think the crash on it is justified. I think removing the crash could just lead to less flavor and more power creep. I say that completely understanding why people hate it.

Edited October 17, 2020 by Sarrate
Making the column titles consistent.

[Vanden]

37 minutes ago, Sarrate said:

I think you're mistaken on the last bullet - in the long run, Rage's 10s damage debuff outweighs any advantages of stacking Rage:

I'm not sure exactly what I'm mistaken about? Are you saying that the proposed Rage changes result in more damage over the long term than current Rage the more you double-stack it? It looks like your charts show it being very slightly better at lower stack durations but then falling off and becoming worse the longer you stack it.

Edited October 17, 2020 by Vanden

[Sarrate]

17 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I'm not sure exactly what I'm mistaken about? Are you saying that the proposed Rage changes result in more damage over the long term than current Rage the more you double-stack it? It looks like your charts show it being very slightly better at lower stack durations but then falling off and becoming worse the longer you stack it.

You phrased that sentence as "you can mitigate the crash by stacking it for 10s and using the proc." While it's true, you can make the crash feel less bad, what I was trying to say is stacking it - at all - is a damage loss in the long run.

 

So, I guess it depends on what you meant by "mitigate the crash."

[Vanden]

6 minutes ago, Sarrate said:

You phrased that sentence as "you can mitigate the crash by stacking it for 10s and using the proc." While it's true, you can make the crash feel less bad, what I was trying to say is stacking it - at all - is a damage loss in the long run.

 

So, I guess it depends on what you meant by "mitigate the crash."

Ah, I gotcha. The thing I was mainly worried about was that the proc would prove too strong; after all, during the crash you’d be doing 5 times the damage you can with current Rage. Well, 5 times the damage with your Super Strength powers. With other powers of different damage types it would vary depending on the enemy.

[Bopper]

I liked the presentation. One thing I'll say, what you proposed for rage doesn't sound like a proc. It sounds like a 40% damage buff that simply isn't stackable (replaceable, really).

 

However, I do like the idea of a proc similar to Toxins or Assault Hybrid. Given that SS has a tax on itself due to Rage, and you are nerfing Rage, I would suggest an actual 40% damage proc that uses the design formula (up to 20s base recharge, maybe 25s). This would also be considered a buff as it offers an avenue for SS to go beyond the damage cap, effectively.