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Am I allowed to stream?


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2 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

As others have mentioned that is completely disingenuous.   There is a level in between "we support streaming" and "it is strictly against HC TOS."  HC could put out a statement/TOS that "we don't support streaming, do it at your own risk".

 

Unfortunately, since I am posting from an HC developer account and anything I say may be construed as official word from HC, I can't really engage in discussion on what HC could or couldn't do without potentially creating a liability. I find it just as frustrating as you do, trust me. All I can say is that, no, HC can't do that, the position has to be clear and not ambiguous: streaming is not allowed at this time.

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4 hours ago, ZacKing said:

 

  there's COH videos less than a week old on YouTube.  Not saying that anyone should break any rules here or that rules should be changed, just don't see a reason for panic.  

Are the ones you're noting from Homecoming?  I've been checking in occasionally over the last two months looking for lunch hour viewing fare, and have never noticed a Homecoming vid, just Reborn and Thunderspy ones, and all have extremely low viewing counts.  My guess is that for the moment, they (NC) consider the viewing count too low to waste their time with.  That could change if the biggest, best-known emulator, us, suddenly churns out many videos, probably with higher viewer count and some with monetary arrangements.

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8 hours ago, ZacKing said:

 

NCSoft already knows about all these pirate servers and haven't done diddly about them.  I think it's better to be more optimistic about streaming. for all anyone knows it might help to bring in new players to show NCSoft the game is still viable and license it.  

Bad argument. First, they have tried to shut down people streaming it. Second, the lack of obvious action does not mean a lack of interest in action. There's no reason to offer additional reasons for NCSoft to scrutinize what's going on and pull the plug. Death by a thousand cuts is still death.

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12 hours ago, Techwright said:

Are the ones you're noting from Homecoming?  I've been checking in occasionally over the last two months looking for lunch hour viewing fare, and have never noticed a Homecoming vid, just Reborn and Thunderspy ones, and all have extremely low viewing counts.  My guess is that for the moment, they (NC) consider the viewing count too low to waste their time with.  That could change if the biggest, best-known emulator, us, suddenly churns out many videos, probably with higher viewer count and some with monetary arrangements.

 

No I don't think any are from here.  I don't think people posting videos from here would be pulling in huge numbers of views either.  Not saying any rules should be changed or broken here.

 

12 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

Bad argument. First, they have tried to shut down people streaming it. Second, the lack of obvious action does not mean a lack of interest in action. There's no reason to offer additional reasons for NCSoft to scrutinize what's going on and pull the plug. Death by a thousand cuts is still death.

 

Worse argument.  They've "tried to shut people down", but don't seem to be having a lot of success.  people are still posting videos from other servers. Lack of obvious action could also mean a lack of interest.  nobody knows.  I get playing it safe, but NCSoft either cares or they don't and may have asked the people here to stop streaming because they're the only ones NCSoft is in contact with. 

 

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Given that IP conflicts are more than capable of taking the entire game down *for everyone*, Zac, I’d ask that you at least consider this a highly sensitive issue... The illegal streamer position is extremely selfish tbqh.

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53 minutes ago, arcane said:

Given that IP conflicts are more than capable of taking the entire game down *for everyone*, Zac, I’d ask that you at least consider this a highly sensitive issue... The illegal streamer position is extremely selfish tbqh.

 

I didn't say it wasn't a sensitive issue, so no idea where you're getting that from.  I've said a few times now I'm not suggesting people break rules here or rules should be changed.  I'm just discussing a couple of the reasons given is all.  I'm not a streamer and don't really watch them either.  just curious about the topic and how/why some actions are "illegal" and "selfish" while others aren't.   

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13 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

I didn't say it wasn't a sensitive issue, so no idea where you're getting that from.  I've said a few times now I'm not suggesting people break rules here or rules should be changed.  I'm just discussing a couple of the reasons given is all.  I'm not a streamer and don't really watch them either.  just curious about the topic and how/why some actions are "illegal" and "selfish" while others aren't.   

Ok then, my bad. I daresay all of the streaming is either (1) selfish or (2) ignorant of the sensitivity, and agree with you that the stance should be consistent.
 

I don’t think inconsistency of actions by NCSoft means we’re in the clear (not saying you said otherwise, again) and I also assume that, to the extent streaming is more common other servers, that is no less risky but rather those servers are just taking far less care and caution with the issue.

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The facts are these:

  1. Homecoming's CoC says don't stream HC game play.
  2. Twitch's ToS says don't streamed pirated games, like CoH or WoW private servers.

Why is this even a question?  If the game host says "no" and the streaming platform says "no", then "no" is the official answer.  No + No = No.  Full stop.

 

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On 3/4/2021 at 11:44 AM, Burnt Toast said:

Oh I know... "the negotiations" which has proven to be as productive as a broken record. With the current rate of player attrition if NCSoft ever had any desire to monetize the community - I am sure much like the player base that is waning. One look at peak numbers will show you that at a time when other games are prospering - HC has steadily lost a huge portion of their players. This isn't me bashing HC - its me being a realist. The negotiations are going nowhere while the players are going away. HC is still an illegal server - they don't have permission from NCSoft to run any more than the other servers. I was all for the negotiations in the beginning, but I am also not stupid and realize that they have been stagnate and aren't going anywhere. I love City of Heroes - and I love the changes that HC made to the game - I just am over the excuses and frankly - lies - that are being perpetuated by HC regarding so-called negotiations. I'll come back in another year and state all this again - when nothing has changed. Take care. 


It's amazing to me how so few people seem to understand how the legal system works. Not just with the negotiations, but the streaming rules and terms of service and everything.

I'll link to another user who posted this in another topic with more detail and explaining than I could ever muster, as a succinct explanation as to why the negotiations are taking so long.
 

 

As stated in the link above, even fully-funded, Triple-A studios with massive legal teams working around the clock are going to take a very lengthy period of time to negotiate anything when it comes to legal contracts and transferring of intellectual properties. It's like people seem to think it's a simple matter of...

Homecoming: "Hey, NCSoft, can I have City of Heroes?"
NCSoft: "Yeah, sure, here you go."

The fact that these points, about streaming and negotiations "taking forever," keep getting brought up is honestly really disappointing. Nobody seems to understand just how long and difficult a process this is.

Hell, I'm pretty pessimistic about this myself. I sincerely doubt NCSoft would ever give the IP away; I know corporations well enough to know they'll never do anything unless it directly benefits them in some significant way. Despite that, I'm still grateful that we even have the game to play, and the fact that NCSoft is even entertaining the notion of negotiations with the Homecoming team is perhaps a little glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. If you're sincerely expecting the negotiations to be quick and easy and for the game to just magically sprout into a fully-staffed MMO with a player-base to rival the days of live, well, I have quite a few bridges to sell you.

TL;DR version: No, you still can't stream. You're likely not going to be able to stream for a very, very long time. Asking about it is not going to make the process any faster. It's about as annoying as the little kid in the back of the car saying "are we there yet?" over and over. Stop asking.

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On 4/22/2021 at 8:21 AM, The Philotic Knight said:

Silly question- unless you're showing HC specific content (like for example the new exploration tip missions), how would ANYONE, let alone HC, know that you're streaming HC? Aals opposed to, say, Thunderspy or even your own local server run from your house?

 

Again, silly question, I know, but this whole conversation seems kind of silly to me already... pretendy fun time games and all:

 

 https://wadewilson.livejournal.com/11285.html

 

Because there's always going to be someone who slips the name of the server (intentional or not) and as content diverges, the odds that some "news" outlet online decides to post the vid for views will quite quickly activate Anybody's radar.

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2 minutes ago, WanderingAries said:

 

Because there's always going to be someone who slips the name of the server (intentional or not) and as content diverges, the odds that some "news" outlet online decides to post the vid for views will quite quickly activate Anybody's radar.

Not to mention one server threatens all of them. Lets say one server - doesn't even have to be us - does something stupid and makes a PR nightmare. If that affects NCSoft to a certain degree, they could just decide "fuck it, shut them all down," and nuke every private server just to keep themselves safe.

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39 minutes ago, The Philotic Knight said:

And then they get to play a game of whack-a-server for the rest of their lives.

Never underestimate a corporation's pettiness when it comes to enforcing copyright and filing lawsuits.

See also: Nintendo.

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So... Still pissing our pants with regards to streaming? Sad. Servers need some traction, they are bleeding out players.
 

10 hours ago, Rathulfr said:

The facts are these:

  1. Homecoming's CoC says don't stream HC game play.
  2. Twitch's ToS says don't streamed pirated games, like CoH or WoW private servers.

Why is this even a question?  If the game host says "no" and the streaming platform says "no", then "no" is the official answer.  No + No = No.  Full stop.

 

https://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Star Wars Galaxies%3A An Empire Divided

OwO, what's this? Private server streams on Twitch?

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14 hours ago, ZacKing said:

Worse argument.  They've "tried to shut people down", but don't seem to be having a lot of success.  people are still posting videos from other servers. Lack of obvious action could also mean a lack of interest.  nobody knows.  I get playing it safe, but NCSoft either cares or they don't and may have asked the people here to stop streaming because they're the only ones NCSoft is in contact with.

Doesn't matter. The answer to the question is "no, do not stream". You don't have to like it. If you choose to do it, you risk not only the game but your own account both here and the platform you stream on. This shouldn't even be a debate.

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16 hours ago, Fortuneteller said:

https://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Star Wars Galaxies%3A An Empire Divided

OwO, what's this? Private server streams on Twitch?


"Hasn't been caught yet" isn't the same "won't be a problem when they do get caught".  That somebody is doing something against the ToS isn't cause for claiming "it's OK to violate the TOS".

These are not difficult concepts to grasp.

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17 hours ago, Fortuneteller said:

So... Still pissing our pants with regards to streaming? Sad. Servers need some traction, they are bleeding out players.
 

https://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Star Wars Galaxies%3A An Empire Divided

OwO, what's this? Private server streams on Twitch?

 

Some people are rule followers.  Some people aren't.  It's very useful to have people that resist following rules when, for example, the commander tells his soldiers to execute the civilians.

 

But, most of the time, the people that don't follow the rules most often end up ****ing it up for everyone else. 

 

This game is not life and death, but it's still a lot of fun.  Please don't **** it up for everyone else by refusing to follow the rules. 

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On 4/22/2021 at 1:12 PM, ForeverLaxx said:

It's against mainstream streaming/video sites to upload illegal content (we're playing this game illegally). That's strike one.

It's against NCSoft's best interest with the IP to allow flagrant displays of playing said IP on unauthorized servers. That's strike two.

It's against HC's wishes to stream, and as the runners of this server, they can bar your entry for any reason (you can make your own server if you want). That's strike three.

HC wishes, eventually, to at least become licensed by NCSoft to run this official, and waving your pirate flag around undermines that. That's strike four.

 

I mostly agree with you, and it is the reason I support the streaming and video ban.

I just do think it makes it much harder to keep the community alive.

 

The argument with the main streaming/video sites is the weakest, as they mostly do that to cover their own liabilities. Nearly all content on those sites are recordings of copyrighted content without permission from the/all copyright owners. Even streamers or youtubers that have permission from the developers of the game they are playing - who are a small minority - do occasionally still get into trouble with a lot of other copyright owners. (e.g. even if you had permission from Rockstar to show GTA, you would need separate permission for the music in the game, etc.) Copyright is an unholy unworkable mess, especially in the USA. (I think that might be a reason the servers are not hosted in the USA, but Canada and Germany?)

It is nearly impossible to not violate copyright. If walk outside and take a picture, and put that on Twitter, there is a high chance there is something in there that I'm violating the copyright of. Even here in my room, I could be.

 

In practice the biggest problem is that if you become the target of a copyright holder, it can quickly become too expensive to defend yourself. Might makes right in copyright land.

 

But the HC team has actually consulted lawyers, so at least in their main jurisdiction, I suppose this is what the best option seems to be. And whatever legal advice the HC team got and what NCsoft told them, we can only speculate.

 

I am also from a country that in general has much more mellow laws on some of these things than the USA, where most of the HC team is probably from. The US legal and justice system can be really rough.

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On 4/24/2021 at 12:26 AM, GastlyGibus said:

Not to mention one server threatens all of them. Lets say one server - doesn't even have to be us - does something stupid and makes a PR nightmare. If that affects NCSoft to a certain degree, they could just decide "fuck it, shut them all down," and nuke every private server just to keep themselves safe.

Which might actually be one of the strongest arguments for NCsoft, to have one server be blessed as the "official" one, or have some kind of legal contract and vetting process with at best a few more.

 

If there is an "official" CoH, where there is a clear legal understanding with NCsoft, then the chances of a "PR nightmare" are a lot less. But for that to be HC, they need to show they can behave and police and moderate their community.

 

And "fuck it, shut them all down" might also be a PR problem, so that might be another reason that NCsoft isn't going after people.

Sometimes these things come down to a single manager somewhere and things can suddenly change.

 

I know of one example where something like this worked:

With Dungeons and Dragons 3rd Edition, Wizards of the Coast made a small part of the rules "open source" through the Open Gaming Licence. This allowed an open source character designer program to be developed. Part of those developers then negotiated with WotC to allow them to publish modules for the non-OGL content as well. This became Code Monkey Publishing. This worked for nearly a decade, until WotC made some stupid decisions, which even they did later publicly regret. But WotC is a lot more interactive with their customers than NCsoft is.

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2 hours ago, Grindingsucks said:

 

Some people are rule followers.  Some people aren't.  It's very useful to have people that resist following rules when, for example, the commander tells his soldiers to execute the civilians.

 

But, most of the time, the people that don't follow the rules most often end up ****ing it up for everyone else. 

 

This game is not life and death, but it's still a lot of fun.  Please don't **** it up for everyone else by refusing to follow the rules. 

I always follow the rules to the best of my ability, but I do like arguing about them occasionally, and sometimes I get involved with politics to try to change them.

 

I think the answer to the OP is clear, but I am learning a lot from the discussion.

 

And as long as such discussion is civil and on topic, I think it is good to have it, as it will be informative to those in the discussion, and maybe later people as well, like when someone linked to an explanation in an older discussion.

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And as long as such discussion is civil and on topic, I think it is good to have it, as it will be informative to those in the discussion, and maybe later people as well, like when someone linked to an explanation in an older discussion.

 

I certainly do agree with this sentiment, but some of the posts I'm reading here are tending towards the opposite direction; more in the tenor of "Let's just keep pushing" and "Gonna poke the bear" and "X hasn't got caught doing it yet, so why not follow suit and just do it ourselves and see what happens?"

 

That kind of thinking can ruin things for everyone.

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If big publisher/devs don't care and if Twitch doesn't care why would NCsoft. I do wonder how many years it'll be before HC realizes that the only thing they are doing is harming their own server growth and advertising of this great game with their ''hush hush don't tell anyone it's the biggest most dangerous secret'' mentality. Like seriously, the servers will only shrink in player numbers at this point, there's no-one talking about City of Heroes anywhere..
More private server livestreams.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1000529228
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/998536207
Rules for me but not for thee, I guess.

 

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1 hour ago, Fortuneteller said:

Rules for me but not for thee, I guess.

And are those streams from HC?

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2 hours ago, Darmian said:

And are those streams from HC?

Honestly, don't even bother. He talks a big game about how "pointless" the rules are but he's unwilling to put his money where his mouth is and risk losing his own account. He wants someone else to do the dirty work so he can scold the devs about closing that player's account later.

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