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Focused Feedback: Teleportation Pool Revamp

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1: Super speed, leap and fly are all suitable for indoor travel and even combat. Teleport is not. It is slow, unwieldy and very unreliable at times.

 

2: Combat teleport's tohit buff is functionally worthless and might as well not exist. Defense would be more appropriate, if people would stop crying fear over min/maxing.

 

3: Super speed, SJ and fly don't need a buff because they work. Teleport needs an activation cut or a more substantial buff in its place, as it is by far the clunkier travel option.

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32 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

1: Super speed, leap and fly are all suitable for indoor travel and even combat. Teleport is not. It is slow, unwieldy and very unreliable at times.

 

2: Combat teleport's tohit buff is functionally worthless and might as well not exist. Defense would be more appropriate, if people would stop crying fear over min/maxing.

 

3: Super speed, SJ and fly don't need a buff because they work. Teleport needs an activation cut or a more substantial buff in its place, as it is by far the clunkier travel option.

1. 🤷🏽‍♂️ I feel like fly and SS are both almost as difficult to use in closed maps, but TP is by far the fastest travel option outside.

 

2. The +tohit is stronger than tactics, which is still a pretty popular power. I've been playing around with combat tp and I've seen almost constant uptime (on a medium recharge build), often double stacked. I feel like it would be especially helpful below lvl 50 and on SO's where missing is more frustratingly common.

Edit: Although I will say this is much easier to do on a melee character where they just want to jump to whichever enemy.

 

3. TP is still the fastest crossing the zone, but it definitely is annoying in the last few jumps to get to an obscured door. It is a little annoying that it needs both range and end enhancements to be great though, whereas others just need their movement enhancement.

Edited by Arcadio

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1 hour ago, Arcadio said:

🤷🏽‍♂️ I feel like fly and SS are both almost as difficult to use in closed maps, but TP is by far the fastest travel option outside.

1: Hard disagree, if you turn with the mouse its objectively easier to navigate than with teleport.

 

2. Teleport is faster in theory outside because it has no range cap. However, in reality, if you're unable to load it with range boosts, it is not faster than base ss or fly with afterburner.

1 hour ago, Arcadio said:

The +tohit is stronger than tactics, which is still a pretty popular power. I've been playing around with combat tp and I've seen almost constant uptime (on a medium recharge build), often double stacked. I feel like it would be especially helpful below lvl 50 and on SO's where missing is more frustratingly common.

Edit: Although I will say this is much easier to do on a melee character where they just want to jump to whichever enemy.

Tactics is always on and does not interfere with the attack rotation. Tactics also is usually preceded by maneuvers and proceeded with vengeance to settle all defensive woes. CT has to be maintained and offers little benefit unless spammed.

 

It also doesn't offer enough tohit to overpower getting debuffed, nor does it benefit your allies.

 

1 hour ago, Arcadio said:

3. TP is still the fastest crossing the zone, but it definitely is annoying in the last few jumps to get to an obscured door. It is a little annoying that it needs both range and end enhancements to be great though, whereas others just need their movement enhancement.

I touch in this in the first point, but again - it's only the fastest when slotted. My ice/time with clarion radial, three slots in teleport and intuition's range boost can clear crazy distances, very few people can spare the slots though.

 

Additionally, sos, ss and leaping have much easier navigation and less of a required slot investment to clear similar distances in a very similar amount of time. The more turns and fine adjustments you have to make, the less useful teleport is as a travel power.

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If Combat Teleport is to retain the to-hit rather than defense component (which I think is a bad idea and will end up punishing people who thematically want to be like Nightcrawler), it should at least get more duration on the buff.  Yes, I get it, it's a little less-than-thematic since the idea is that the to-hit represent surprise and are you really surprised 10 seconds later that the guy teleported?  But it's both a huge pain in the ass to teleport every 5 seconds and a significant DPS drop.

 

This may mean either eliminating the stacking or restricting it to only 2 total stacks.

 

Also, people were saying back at the beginning of the thread that CT seemed incapable of proccing Gaussian's proc, did we ever figure that out?

 

EDIT to add:  I think people who are comparing CT to Tactics really need to think about power pool opportunity cost.  Leadership gives you both to-hit (easier, albeit perhaps more expensive to-hit that has a chance to proc Gaussian's) AND defense AND damage.  Combat teleport is the only power in its pool that offer a boost to combat stats.  There is no way on God's green Earth that anyone is giving up Hasten for Combat Teleport, this means that most people are now down to just two pools that can accommodate defense bonuses -- Fighting and probably Leadership or Concealment.

Edited by aethereal

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Also to add to the tactics vs combat TP, in addition to the fact that tactics to-hit is always on and more slot friendly imo (not fighting for any range enhancement) but it also provides confuse protection, confuse and fear resist which are common holes on armor sets mez protection, it also provides +perception and -perception resistance to help when you get hit with smoke or other perception debuffs.

 

All this adds up to tactics being far superior choice in almost all cases imo.

 

As I said before, I think CT should get a small bit of +def in addition to a bit of +to-hit (though perhaps slightly less to-hit then what it has now).

 

Even if it might be considered stronger than what you get from combat jumping, I think it'd be fair given it has to be actively maintained and could interrupt attack chains rather than toggle you just put on and forget about.

Edited by Dragon Crush
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I'd rather see something more interesting, like a short Confuse or Stun PBAoE.  Either would be thematically appropriate and potentially useful.

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9 minutes ago, Luminara said:

I'd rather see something more interesting, like a short Confuse or Stun PBAoE.  Either would be thematically appropriate and potentially useful.

I think it'd be nearly impossible to make an AoE mez on a very rapidly used pool power be balanced.  It would almost certainly be absurdly short-duration and like mag 2 at the absolute most, non-stacking.

 

The criticism that Defense is boring is on-point, but, I mean, look, the T1/T2 attacks in melee and blast sets are invariably boring as well.  Sometimes you need boring stuff to make the game actually work.

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Unpopular opinion:

 

I'd rather see Combat Teleport offer no secondary bonus at all (teleport and universal travel sets only) and have it's activation/animation/execution pacing sped up.  I like the pacing as of the last time I logged into beta (build 2), but a touch faster would be even better, imnsho.

 

We can argue thematic positions back and forth until the end of time because that's subjective, but the bottom line for me is that if it gets any slower than it is right now I'll most likely never use it at all, which would be highly disappointing.

 

I'd rather the focus be on what the power does, not what secondary bonus it confers or what sets it can slot.  Please don't mistake this for a position on min/max building, because I'm talking about maxing something that isn't necessarily reflected in raw numbers or set bonuses: Mobility.

 

I know I keep harping on this, but I'm 10000000% firmly against any change to the secondary effects that leads the devs to decide to slow down the pace for "balance" and until I see a Dev/GM post (or similar in upcoming patch notes) unequivocally stating that there is no intention of doing so I'll keep dropping by to repeat myself. 😄

 

Even the slightest bit slower and CT becomes useless on fast paced teams and less effective as a mobility tool than just using CJ to get from point to point. It would also lose a large amount of the fun factor.  Please understand that when someone asks me IRL what is the "one superpower I would want" the answer is, and always has been, "Teleportation" with zero hesitation in my reply.  And I've never been happy with the implementation of Teleport in CoX until CT hit beta with this issue.  The travel power itself is too slow, clunky, and annoying to use.  Tried several times to get into it, and I just can't.  CT, in contrast, instantly invoked the "ShutUp And Take My Money" reflex from the first click.

 

So, please, Devs, please, please, please do not slow down Combat Teleport.

 

Please. 😄

 

I'll wash your car.  I'll do your windows.  Hell, I'll make you a freaking delicious batch of blueberry corn muffins.  Name your bribe! 😄

Edited by InvaderStych
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On 11/6/2020 at 11:54 AM, ScarySai said:

Tactics is always on and does not interfere with the attack rotation. Tactics also is usually preceded by maneuvers and proceeded with vengeance to settle all defensive woes. CT has to be maintained and offers little benefit unless spammed.

 

It also doesn't offer enough tohit to overpower getting debuffed, nor does it benefit your allies.

Not that your point is without merit, but in the vein of my previous post, lets turn some theory into numbers here.

Combat Teleport, as it stands at time of writing, has a 0.67 activation time, that means for 2/3 of a second you are unable to do anything else. I shall use my current build's dps rotation to calculate the cost of maintaing a 100% uptime of CT's +10% tohit value at a single stack on this rotation. Baring some oddness this should be proportional to almost all rotations.

Disclaimer: These numbers are calculated with the help of Mid's, and are on my build specifically which i consider very weak in the damage department for a katana scrapper, the goal is not the numbers themselves but the relationship between them. Damage values truncated to the second decimal point.

My rotation (with activation times):
Golden Dragonfly (1.83s) -->  Soaring Dragon (1.33s) -->  Gambler's Cut (0.67s) -->  The Lotus Drops (1.83s) -->  Gambler's Cut (0.67s)
Total Execution time: 6.33 seconds

Total Damage: 1,230.85

DPS: 194.44

Rotation modified for CT spam with 100% uptime on effect:

Combat Teleport (0.67) --> Golden Dragonfly (1.83s) -->  Soaring Dragon (1.33s) -->  Gambler's Cut (0.67s) -->  The Lotus Drops (1.83s)
Total Execution time: 6.33 seconds

Total Damage: 1,100.86

DPS: 173.91

Thus the use of combat teleport at 100% uptime is roughly equivalent to 89.44% of the damage done without it. Roughly a 10% dps drop, give or take.

**mathematics ends here, what follows is purely subjective opinion**

I am of the opinion that a roughly 10% loss in dps, that only takes effect when i CHOOSE to allow it to, is not a high price to pay for a 10% to hit buff on demand. Using a similar mechanic (though not for to hit) it is possible on a bio armor character to, in a similar fashion, trade resistance, or endurance in favor of damage, and this is seen as a positive.

Additionally when discussing a movement power, its worth considering travel time, when an enemy escapes your range or LoS, your dps becomes zero for however long it takes you to react and traverse the necessary distance. With combat teleport, that traversal will essentially never be more than 0.67 seconds. This serves to mitigate some of the damage loss argument, but i know the main part of it is the trade of damage for to hit.

Looking at another example, assuming you are taking 2 power slots in leadership to take tactics, a power with less to-hit, but other benefits, you are choosing between maneuvers, assault, and tactics. Most forms of Assault grant 10.5% damage, with support ATs getting stronger versions who also get better versions of tactics so proportionally it stays similar. Viewed in the light of a completed build, one could argue that taking assault instead of tactics, is an option opened up by combat teleport that grants both the desired to-hit bonus, and the ability to forgo that to-hit bonus at any time for a 10% damage output increase.

I will also note that while yes Tactic provides confuse a fear resistance, those are the benefits of a power dedicated to improving stats and not providing mobility. Additionally id note Tactics is a T3 pool power REQUIRING one of the previous powers to unlock and should be more valuable than combat teleport. I would hope no one took my previous statements to imply combat teleport was equivalent, because it shouldn't be, only that for one portion of it, it is able to perform the same role.

Lastly I would like to address the persistent assessment that CT is unable to push through -accuracy debuffs. I feel this argument only holds water if you believe that melee AT's Build Up is also unable to push through said debuffs. An opinion that I greatly disagree with as I regularly use build up explicitly to get the hits in i need to apply the -def i need to stabilize my hit chance. Build Up provides +20% tohit, Combat Teleport is easily able to double stack, and for a single attack, sometimes two, triple stack for +20% or +30% tohit.

Granted your buildup is likely slotted, like mine, with a 6 set of Gaussian's all +5ed granting you 32% +to-hit. However i do not find CT's range, endurance, or recharge to be limiting factors on any set based build, so would argue you can just slap a basic To Hit Buff IO +5ed for a +13.19%, +26.38%, and +39.57% to hit at 1, 2, and 3 stacks respectively, all without wasting a single placeable enhancement slot.

I really do feel that people are going purely on a 'gut feeling' that this to-hit is insubstantial while testing on builds that generally either have crap hit chance no matter what, or are perma capped at 95% no matter what. Thus the arguments being posed are limited to arguing that they 'need' the defense, but not the to-hit there for any power that doesn't give defense along with whatever quirks and shifts it does to play style is lesser.

Again, if the devs decide, hell with it, lets switch it to defense? I wont lose any sleep over it, but i really do think that the to-hit is more unique and encourages more thoughtful play and build design, where as defense will simply lead to players building with the expectation of 100% uptime and have to train themselves to always be recasting CT rather than using it only when needed. I don't know about you guys? But to hell with that, ill accept not having a defense soft cap long before i train myself to use a movement power every 5 friggen seconds, which mind you, would STILL have the 10% damage loss that was complained about.

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1 hour ago, Koopak said:

Not that your point is without merit, but in the vein of my previous post, lets turn some theory into numbers here.

Combat Teleport, as it stands at time of writing, has a 0.67 activation time, that means for 2/3 of a second you are unable to do anything else. I shall use my current build's dps rotation to calculate the cost of maintaing a 100% uptime of CT's +10% tohit value at a single stack on this rotation. Baring some oddness this should be proportional to almost all rotations.

Disclaimer: These numbers are calculated with the help of Mid's, and are on my build specifically which i consider very weak in the damage department for a katana scrapper, the goal is not the numbers themselves but the relationship between them. Damage values truncated to the second decimal point.

My rotation (with activation times):
Golden Dragonfly (1.83s) -->  Soaring Dragon (1.33s) -->  Gambler's Cut (0.67s) -->  The Lotus Drops (1.83s) -->  Gambler's Cut (0.67s)
Total Execution time: 6.33 seconds

Total Damage: 1,230.85

DPS: 194.44

Rotation modified for CT spam with 100% uptime on effect:

Combat Teleport (0.67) --> Golden Dragonfly (1.83s) -->  Soaring Dragon (1.33s) -->  Gambler's Cut (0.67s) -->  The Lotus Drops (1.83s)
Total Execution time: 6.33 seconds

Total Damage: 1,100.86

DPS: 173.91

Thus the use of combat teleport at 100% uptime is roughly equivalent to 89.44% of the damage done without it. Roughly a 10% dps drop, give or take.

**mathematics ends here, what follows is purely subjective opinion**

I am of the opinion that a roughly 10% loss in dps, that only takes effect when i CHOOSE to allow it to, is not a high price to pay for a 10% to hit buff on demand. Using a similar mechanic (though not for to hit) it is possible on a bio armor character to, in a similar fashion, trade resistance, or endurance in favor of damage, and this is seen as a positive.

Additionally when discussing a movement power, its worth considering travel time, when an enemy escapes your range or LoS, your dps becomes zero for however long it takes you to react and traverse the necessary distance. With combat teleport, that traversal will essentially never be more than 0.67 seconds. This serves to mitigate some of the damage loss argument, but i know the main part of it is the trade of damage for to hit.

Looking at another example, assuming you are taking 2 power slots in leadership to take tactics, a power with less to-hit, but other benefits, you are choosing between maneuvers, assault, and tactics. Most forms of Assault grant 10.5% damage, with support ATs getting stronger versions who also get better versions of tactics so proportionally it stays similar. Viewed in the light of a completed build, one could argue that taking assault instead of tactics, is an option opened up by combat teleport that grants both the desired to-hit bonus, and the ability to forgo that to-hit bonus at any time for a 10% damage output increase.

I will also note that while yes Tactic provides confuse a fear resistance, those are the benefits of a power dedicated to improving stats and not providing mobility. Additionally id note Tactics is a T3 pool power REQUIRING one of the previous powers to unlock and should be more valuable than combat teleport. I would hope no one took my previous statements to imply combat teleport was equivalent, because it shouldn't be, only that for one portion of it, it is able to perform the same role.

Lastly I would like to address the persistent assessment that CT is unable to push through -accuracy debuffs. I feel this argument only holds water if you believe that melee AT's Build Up is also unable to push through said debuffs. An opinion that I greatly disagree with as I regularly use build up explicitly to get the hits in i need to apply the -def i need to stabilize my hit chance. Build Up provides +20% tohit, Combat Teleport is easily able to double stack, and for a single attack, sometimes two, triple stack for +20% or +30% tohit.

Granted your buildup is likely slotted, like mine, with a 6 set of Gaussian's all +5ed granting you 32% +to-hit. However i do not find CT's range, endurance, or recharge to be limiting factors on any set based build, so would argue you can just slap a basic To Hit Buff IO +5ed for a +13.19%, +26.38%, and +39.57% to hit at 1, 2, and 3 stacks respectively, all without wasting a single placeable enhancement slot.

I really do feel that people are going purely on a 'gut feeling' that this to-hit is insubstantial while testing on builds that generally either have crap hit chance no matter what, or are perma capped at 95% no matter what. Thus the arguments being posed are limited to arguing that they 'need' the defense, but not the to-hit there for any power that doesn't give defense along with whatever quirks and shifts it does to play style is lesser.

Again, if the devs decide, hell with it, lets switch it to defense? I wont lose any sleep over it, but i really do think that the to-hit is more unique and encourages more thoughtful play and build design, where as defense will simply lead to players building with the expectation of 100% uptime and have to train themselves to always be recasting CT rather than using it only when needed. I don't know about you guys? But to hell with that, ill accept not having a defense soft cap long before i train myself to use a movement power every 5 friggen seconds, which mind you, would STILL have the 10% damage loss that was complained about.

Or it could just not stack and grant that defense for 60 seconds. I would much prefer the defense so I don't feel like gimping my build to go for ct instead of cj, thus making it a build issue instead if a fun/thematic issue. Much like that unnecessary cooldown does in pve.

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1 hour ago, WindDemon21 said:

Or it could just not stack and grant that defense for 60 seconds. I would much prefer the defense so I don't feel like gimping my build to go for ct instead of cj, thus making it a build issue instead if a fun/thematic issue. Much like that unnecessary cooldown does in pve.

As iv said, a valid argument, just one i disagree with because it hasn't been a problem for me in building a wide variety of builds requiring 2-3 pools that don't give defense. CJ and Hover just aren't big enough for me to feel their loss, infact i think only 2 of my characters even use them while the others are still hitting their build goals. But again, if they made that change, i wouldn't mind much, my main goal was to lend some context of roughly what CT is WORTH because its repeatedly referred to as if it provides nothing, when i just cant disagree with that more.

Edited by Koopak
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So ive been keeping an eye on this thread and posted a couple times.  Looked at the latest patch notes.  And while I never expect changes that I think would be best, Im still disappointed there is no love for MMs in regards to teleport.

 

1. Team teleport or teleport or even combat TP isnt enough if Im leaving my pets behind.  MMs get the shaft when it comes to mobility.  We really need a TP option that keeps our pets with us (and perhaps not TPing the whole team or league when you do it, ie maybe just pets). 

 

2. That and that damn animation/hang time/hoover effect rooting me in place between TPs.  People say what it lacks indoors it makes up for outdoors....  And yet people keep up with me frequently because of this.

 

All the changes look really neat, and i love the attention the devs are giving the power.  However, I really thought this would be obvious and something MM players would get behind...  Maybe Im way off base.  But TP seems to be the best and worst travel power for MMs.  So close and yet so far from what would make us more team friendly.

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Tactics run 100% of the time is not a cheap toggle. For single-player use, the tohit may indeed be maximally useful for an opening alpha strike that allows you to disturb the alpha strike from the enemies. 

The tohit is effectively zero cost, and comes with great mobility in combat at minimum end consumption. 

 

@RageusQuitus2Suggestion: Put all pets in bodyguard mode, and have them follow you. Fold Space. Profit. Your pets will overwhelm inbound aggro with their own flavor of chaos, and everyone takes less damage. It is definitely one of the more fire and forget means of using FS. 

 

Teleport will probably always be a pretty ick power for travel; use of CT, alternate fast travel, and teleport team/target are amazingly useful though.

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Path of Exile has a skill any class can use whose sole purpose is teleporting all pets to the character. It used to have a large CD but it was later buffed to something like 20 seconds I believe.

 

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1 hour ago, Hew said:

RageusQuitus2Suggestion: Put all pets in bodyguard mode, and have them follow you. Fold Space. Profit. Your pets will overwhelm inbound aggro with their own flavor of chaos, and everyone takes less damage. It is definitely one of the more fire and forget means of using FS. 

I agree fold space will be nice addition no arguments here on that.  but bg mode they just dont keep up.  even my demons with some decent jump inherent, then accelerate metabolism on top etc.  At least in my experience.

Edited by RageusQuitus2
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So is there any dev chatter about Wormhole and Fold Space not working on bosses more than +2 your level? Beta 3 still doesn't have a fix for that.

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5 minutes ago, pwntoon said:

So is there any dev chatter about Wormhole and Fold Space not working on bosses more than +2 your level? Beta 3 still doesn't have a fix for that.

This is really the one "teleport" fix I'm looking to see the most. I like a lot of what this TP pool revamp is doing, particularly in the realm of character concepts, but Wormhole (and now FS) not pulling high level bosses has always been a sticking point for me. If they're going to get into the grit of enemy teleport powers, this should be rectified if possible.

 

That said, I'm perfectly fine with Teleport Target *not* working on higher ranked enemies. As an introductory and flexible power to the set it probably shouldn't let you isolate a boss from its spawn. Wormhole and FS really need to bring the bosses with the rest, though.

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11 hours ago, RageusQuitus2 said:

I agree fold space will be nice addition no arguments here on that.  but bg mode they just dont keep up.  even my demons with some decent jump inherent, then accelerate metabolism on top etc.  At least in my experience.

I always just used Team TP to carry my zombies around if I wanted them right next to me for a mob. As bad as it sounds, if I was in a group and someone complained I was yanking them around, I'd point them to the TP Prompt option to prevent it.


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46 minutes ago, ForeverLaxx said:

This is really the one "teleport" fix I'm looking to see the most. I like a lot of what this TP pool revamp is doing, particularly in the realm of character concepts, but Wormhole (and now FS) not pulling high level bosses has always been a sticking point for me. If they're going to get into the grit of enemy teleport powers, this should be rectified if possible.

 

That said, I'm perfectly fine with Teleport Target *not* working on higher ranked enemies. As an introductory and flexible power to the set it probably shouldn't let you isolate a boss from its spawn. Wormhole and FS really need to bring the bosses with the rest, though.

Agreed, it's one of the reasons i don't play my gravity, or at least enjoy it high level, nothing worse than only getting half the mob with your Wormhole. It needs to be flagged to be like mag 50 teleport or something, it should always get everything that isn't an AV/GM/EB tbh regardless of level.

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17 hours ago, pwntoon said:

So is there any dev chatter about Wormhole and Fold Space not working on bosses more than +2 your level? Beta 3 still doesn't have a fix for that.

I would not expect it to, at all. Bosses are, well, bosses. They are by default naturally resistant to pretty much everything. Asking a pool power to gank bosses +2 to you is probably a bridge too far. Consider  that primary and secondary pools have powers that won't even do simple things like single target hold on a boss on first application!

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Even if we wanted that to happen (and I'm not saying that either way - not my department), it's actually not something that can be done simply.

 

There's plenty of things in the game that players simply should not be able to teleport (eg: static objects). This is done by way of a certain amount of teleportation protection. If we start increasing the mag of foe teleportation powers so it could impact stronger enemies, it may have unforeseen and undesired consequences when it comes to teleporting things which aren't meant to move.


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23 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Even if we wanted that to happen (and I'm not saying that either way - not my department), it's actually not something that can be done simply.

 

There's plenty of things in the game that players simply should not be able to teleport (eg: static objects). This is done by way of a certain amount of teleportation protection. If we start increasing the mag of foe teleportation powers so it could impact stronger enemies, it may have unforeseen and undesired consequences when it comes to teleporting things which aren't meant to move.

Then increase their tp protection to mag 1000 😛

 

This is less an issue for fold space IMO, but REALLY problematic with wormhole.

Edited by WindDemon21
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25 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Even if we wanted that to happen (and I'm not saying that either way - not my department), it's actually not something that can be done simply.

 

There's plenty of things in the game that players simply should not be able to teleport (eg: static objects). This is done by way of a certain amount of teleportation protection. If we start increasing the mag of foe teleportation powers so it could impact stronger enemies, it may have unforeseen and undesired consequences when it comes to teleporting things which aren't meant to move.

I agree with WindDemon. Increase the teleport protection of all static objects by a huge amount, then increase Wormhole slightly.

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16 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Then increase their tp protection to mag 1000 😛

 

This is less an issue for fold space IMO, but REALLY problematic with wormhole.

You misunderstand. You can't simply increase the TP protection of things that shouldn't be teleported by 1000 - first you need to know every single thing which must not be teleported. No such list exists.


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