Weekly Discussion 76: Noticeably underpowered sets. What needs an emergency buff?

[Blackmoor]

 

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Electrical Blast yet. It's rather underwhelming compared to most other Blaster primaries.

[screemer]

2 minutes ago, Blackmoor said:

 

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Electrical Blast yet. It's rather underwhelming compared to most other Blaster primaries.

i fell like that has less to due with ele being bad perse and more to do with the fact npc's cheat and how they interact with end if that got changed would be much better for them

[DSorrow]

In no particular order:

 

• Electric Blast: weak damage (no real T3 blast), pretty much useless secondary effect. As an emergency buff I'd just increase damage scale slightly across the board if Elec still has the damage penalty for -End and make Tesla Cage do standard T3 blast damage.
• Mind Control: no pet or a reliable 60/90 second AoE control, reducing Mass Confusion to 60 seconds base CD would be great, Levitate could do a small AoE for the knockup
• Mercs: weak damage, Serum is crappy, henchmen special abilities have way too long cooldowns
• Broadsword / Battle Axe: they're just weaker versions of Katana/WM, respectively
• Ice Melee: Greater Ice Sword really needs some improvements so that the set has more than one good ST attack
• Stone Armor: this set needs a total revamp more than emergency buffs...
• Assault Rifle: weak single target damage with mediocre AoE at best, no Aim
• Sonic Attack: good as a support set, bad as an attack set - cones could use harmonization in range/arc and Shout really needs to do more damage or have a shorter cast time
• Sonic Resonance: it really needs to do more -Res, add +Toxic/Psi resists to make Sonic the king of Resistance manipulation. Endurance costs need a look at and Liquefy should do -Res and have a much shorter cooldown
• Force Fields: I don't even know where to start, an emergency buff is probably not enough, maybe a variety of Debuff Resistances in the shields
• Empathy: not sure how I'd improve Empathy, but shortening RA cooldowns and giving AB some Debuff Resists might be good.
• Ice Armor: triple damage type hole (Fire/Psi/Toxic) along with relatively low base +Def values for S/L/E/NE, low DDR and a bad T9 if you're a Tank or Brute. I'd probably bump up S/L/E/NE Def values, improve the +Toxic res in Hibernate to a meaningfully higher level, but really the set needs more rework...
• Kinetic Melee: a lot of the later attacks in the set suffer from the same problem: insanely long animation times without the damage appropriate damage, this also works out against the BU in the set...
• Stalker Ninjitsu: just grab a few pages from the Scrapper Ninjitsu playbook
• Fire Melee: it only does damage, and it's not even a top contender for dealing damage
• Traps: a couple of really good powers carry the whole set, also the playstyle is a relic of a world long gone. As an emergency buff, make basically everything in the set follow the player
• Kheldians: they feel like the beta version of Sentinels, probably more work than an emergency buff is required

[Blackmoor]

  

7 minutes ago, screemer said:

i fell like that has less to due with ele being bad perse and more to do with the fact npc's cheat and how they interact with end if that got changed would be much better for them

I was strictly commenting on its DPS potential.

 

The sapping aspect has always been so utterly worthless that it strengthens the argument that the set needs a buff. For all practical intents, Electrical Blast has no secondary benefits to speak of.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Blackmoor

[Blastit]

1 hour ago, screemer said:

i fell like that has less to due with ele being bad perse and more to do with the fact npc's cheat and how they interact with end if that got changed would be much better for them

Electric Blast doesn't necessarily have a simple fix, either. Do you just buff some damage numbers? Do you fundamentally rework how endurance works for enemies? Do you re-examine whether the endurance drain aspect is even worth the work to keep? What do the volunteer developers have time and interest in doing? etc etc

[SaintD]

1 hour ago, Blastit said:

Electric Blast doesn't necessarily have a simple fix, either. Do you just buff some damage numbers? Do you fundamentally rework how endurance works for enemies? Do you re-examine whether the endurance drain aspect is even worth the work to keep? What do the volunteer developers have time and interest in doing? etc etc

Make it do -recharge. It does the same job of basically reducing how often the enemy can attack, and they don't 'cheat' it.

Boom. Done. Fixed. I'm a genius.

Edited November 11, 2020 by SaintD
I don't need a reason, how dare you.

[Doomguide2005]

On 11/10/2020 at 8:31 AM, tidge said:

Wouldn't that just make Willpower a better version of Super Reflexes?

Nope, not until that DDR gets a whole lot higher.  My scrapper nevermind what an SR Tanker can do, can stand among a bunch of Cimerorans bosses and pretty much ignore their defense debuffs.  I'll be dead from simply get beat on/the rng long before they significantly change my defense.  Ask a Shield (especially without stacking their DDR) or Ninjitsu user to do that without using any other survival tool beyond defense and watch what happens.   At 40% ddr they are very likely to off the def cap by a not insignificant amount after 1 blow.  And it would probably take only a 2 or 3 for the word cascade to enter the equation.  Ignoring 95% is a considerably stronger value than ~40%.

[tidge]

I grok that all (Defense/Resistance) sets can be made better by plugging holes, but is this an emergency that needs to be corrected for a majority of the game's content?

[Doomguide2005]

No, but then again I'm largely in agreement with @Yomo Kimyata.  Emergency no, high priority for some of these issues more so.

[Caiden132]

• Assault Rifle
• Bane Spider ranged mace skills
• Mercenary minions
• Kinetic Melee

 

Thanks for all of your work!

Edited November 11, 2020 by Caiden132

[Safehouse]

I want to throw my support for buffs to Kinetic Melee and Kheldians (specifically human form PBs), although I kind of feel like both could use more than just an emergency buff. Personally, I'd love some alternate animation options for kinetic melee, as well as some reduction on cast times or some improvement on the damage. A buff in the short term could help though. Similarly, I think kheldians could use more than just a damage buff, but it could be a start. All just imo though.

[Gobbledigook]

18 hours ago, @Ghost said:

I played /Staff on a tanker (before the AT buffs, admittedly) and it's the only character I've ever just completely given up on, so that gets my nomination.

Yes I think if they are adding AoE to sets that have good single target then Staff should get it's single target looked at also as it is pretty bad.

 

Pain Dominations needs some work. Anguishing cry needs to be a targeted AoE rather than putting a healer into the danger zone.

 

I put willpower here because once those defences are stripped which is very easy with its low DDR it is just a low resist set with very good regen that only gets better with more mobs. The regen is easily overwhelmed as it doesn't have any real emergency skills to back it up. The T9 should be better than what it is maybe. Increasing the DDR a little will at least slow the cascade failure some.

[Saikochoro]

I don’t know that I would call it an emergency, but Regeneration has long been known to be in need of some changes.  I’m sure many would agree on that. 
 

So, with that I am going to link to @Bopperrework from the Regen weekly discussion. If this were implemented I am pretty sure I would be even more excited than I am for the energy melee beta. 

 

Granted this is a rework more than an emergency numbers change. Still I think Regen deserves it. 

 

[CrudeVileTerror]

Did my best to collect all the votes so far.

I tried to avoid double-counting any Sets which a single user may have posted on more than once in the thread, but I may have made a mistake here or there.

 

16    Assault Rifle
15    Mercenaries
8    Stone Armour
7    Regeneration
7    Kinetic Melee
7    Sonic Blast
6    Sonic Resonance
5    Force Fields
4    Ninjas
4    Ice Armour
4    Broadsword
3    Peacebringer/Warshade
3    Sentinel Archetype
3    Mind Control
3    Electric Blast (specifically Endurance Drain versus Recovery Debuff)
3    Mastermind Primaries (with request for the whole Archetype to get another week under the magnifying glass)
3    Beasts
3    Fire Melee
2    Bane Spider
2    Willpower
2    Pain Domination
2    Archery
2    Traps
2    Street Justice
2    Munitions Mastery
1    Staff Melee
1    Dual Pistols
1    Battle Axe
1    Ice Melee
1    Empathy
1    Ninjitsu
1    Robotics
1    Dark Melee
1    Medicine Pool
1    Force of Will Pool
1    Martial Combat
 

I honestly don't agree with some of these, but I can't argue with the top 5!

[drbuzzard]

I'll put in a vote for assault rifle like the rest. It's set which hinders itself, lacks anything really good, and the special power tier 9 is simply awful. Heck, they had the mercy to cut the animation time of rain of arrows which was already better, but Full Auto still leaves your behind hanging in the breeze. Not really sure if an emergency buff is sufficient though. Perhaps make the cones about the same dimensions, make M30 knockdown, expand ignite (and I'd still skip it), cut animation of a bunch of things (M30, Flamethrower, FA). That would be comparatively quick and make the set bearable.  I got an AR/Dev to 50 back on live way back when. I wouldn't touch that set again with a 10' cattle prod as is. 

 

Sonic blast needs some mercy. It has too many 'attacks' which don't do squat damage, and the attacks it does have suffers from way long animations which ruin DPAS. Heck the only good attack in the set is sentinel screech, and the rest of the poor ATs don't even get that. On paper it looks AOE heavy, till you notice that 2 of 3 cones don't do any damned damage. Quick fix: Add damage to all the cones (perhaps just dump the damned sleep), and cut the animations till you have some decent DPAS powers in the set. I think there's simply too much concern about resistance debuff to be quite honest. When one considers it as a damage boosting effect, you must remember it suffers from the purple patch debuff in addition to the damage debuff, so unless you're fighting even con critters, it's far less potent than a straight damage boost. 

 

 

[Player2]

Super Strength needs a buff.

 

The Rage takes all the fun out of it.  Without using Rage, the set it weak and less effective than other sets which have additional effects to them.  SS has a highly resisted damage type and weak secondary effects (aside from Knockout Blow's knock up & disorient).

 

I'm not even of the opinion that we should ditch Rage and get Build Up like other melee sets.  I think it should be removed entirely and give something else entirely in its place, while also buffing the overall base damage of the set to bring it in line with other sets without needing a buff that makes you temporarily weak and easier to hit.  Maybe replace it with a Light damage attack that also applies a heavy -Recovery debuff to the target, like you're knocking the wind out of them and they're having trouble catching their breath but aren't completely helpless.

 

I just want to add that rage as a power is not thematically iconic to super strength... only to the Hulk (and ripoffs of him).  Superman, Thor, and most other super strength characters stay at their peak strength all the time without needing to rage and rest and repeat.  Hulk-like raging should belong to brutes.  Why not revamp Fury so that after it peaks, you only maintain it for a brief time and then crash --regardless of what powerset you have.  Gimp the proper AT, not the wrong power set. 

 

Edited November 12, 2020 by Player2
(Added commentary)

[drbuzzard]

Oh, and before everyone jumps on the 'stone armor needs love' bandwagon, I'd like to get some runtime in with the currently godly granite using combat teleport. I've tried it on test, and let me tell you, it really changes the ballgame. 

[@Ghost]

2 hours ago, drbuzzard said:

Oh, and before everyone jumps on the 'stone armor needs love' bandwagon, I'd like to get some runtime in with the currently godly granite using combat teleport. I've tried it on test, and let me tell you, it really changes the ballgame. 

Stone Armor's been totally workable for a while and I'm sure Combat TP will help a bit, it's just that Granite invalidating 4 other powers in the set and piling drawbacks on you is terrible design. It's not an "emergency numbers buff" candidate imo, it needs a lot more rethinking because the mutual exclusivity gimmick just sucks.

[Vanden]

No power should be an "emergency numbers buff" candidate. We can see with Energy Assault/Whirling Hands and Dark Melee/Shadow Maul that players get attached to any sort of change, so if you make a buff intending to reverse it when there's finally time to do a proper balance pass players protest vehemently when the other shoe finally drops.

[Gulbasaur]

On 11/11/2020 at 8:38 AM, DSorrow said:

Mind Control: no pet or a reliable 60/90 second AoE control, reducing Mass Confusion to 60 seconds base CD would be great, Levitate could do a small AoE for the knockup

The lack of a pet is the reason I like Mind Control. I'd love it if Containment applied to the Fear effect, though, as that's Mind's strongest mid-level control.

On 11/11/2020 at 8:38 AM, DSorrow said:

Kheldians: they feel like the beta version of Sentinels, probably more work than an emergency buff is required

They were, in my opinion, the worst casualties of the Power Creep Wars. The thing that made them special (ranged tankiness) is now the thing that makes most builds average (everyone and their cow is rocking at least 30% defences and 25% resists with a minimal amount of set bonuses). They definitely need something.

[DSorrow]

On 11/11/2020 at 12:06 PM, Blastit said:

Electric Blast doesn't necessarily have a simple fix, either. Do you just buff some damage numbers? Do you fundamentally rework how endurance works for enemies? Do you re-examine whether the endurance drain aspect is even worth the work to keep? What do the volunteer developers have time and interest in doing? etc etc

I think Elec Blast would already be a much, much better blast set if Tesla Cage did T3 blast damage. Fine tuning the efficiency of the secondary effects probably needs more of a deep dive.

[kazrack35]

Assault riffle
In my opinion, assault could use something reflecting the penetrating effect of bullets, schrapnel,etc. Also only in a movie you'll see a guy hit by a bullet being pushed away like this.

Power  >> my issue with it  >>  my suggestion

Burst  >>  I don't use it >> 20% chance of mag 2 stun (multiple impacts) or very minor unresistible dot (internal injury, no idea what amount)
Slug >> KB >> change it to KD, saving a slot and a keeping soft control tool
Sniper Rifle >> standard AR issue vs S/L res >> negate part (10%, 20%?) of S/L resist
Buckshot >> range, KB effect  >>  increase from 40 (iirc) to at least 60, 80 would be optimal, cones being less user friendly than TAOE, change KB to KD, + 10% chance of mag 2 stun
M30 Grenade >> KB mainly, and standard AR issue vs S/L res >> change KD to KD, change damage as someeone allready mentionnet it to Lethal/ fire, + minor irrestible dot
Beanbag >> fine by me, though I usually don't use it >> add a moderate-to hit for a few sec?
Flamethrower >> long cast time, very short range, low dpa >> my vision is that this one is burning gas. It's "just" a flame. ==>quicker cast, better range,
Ignite >> long cast, ridiculous area, fear effect >> My vision is tha this one is napalm. if you're in the splas area you're it by persisting burning liquid/paste ==>you can flee, you still get a huge fire dot
full auo  >> lonnnnng cast, relatively narrow cone, target cap, not that high damages >> widen a bit the cone, up the target cap, lower the cast time

[drbuzzard]

7 hours ago, @Ghost said:

Stone Armor's been totally workable for a while and I'm sure Combat TP will help a bit, it's just that Granite invalidating 4 other powers in the set and piling drawbacks on you is terrible design. It's not an "emergency numbers buff" candidate imo, it needs a lot more rethinking because the mutual exclusivity gimmick just sucks.

Oh it's certainly workable, it's just very unpleasant. With combat teleport, the things which made it too unpleasant to bear for me to play, have be mitigated.

 

Yes, the design certainly is a bit of a mess, but many of the suggestions I've seen would make the set unrecognizable.

[kazrack35]

Mind control
Loved the set, untill plant control... I dislike pets, never use them except PA on illu (and strangely no one ever seemed to notice it at least I nerver had any complaint about that). so mind control was my thing.
power >> issue with it >> suggestion

mesmerize  >> ok with it mostly >> I'd made it a Mag 4 on first apply ==> garanteed boss sleep, but with the sleep effect unstackable on secpnd apply : 1 apply on the target sleep + damage, second apply within the sleep duration only does damage
levitate >> fine with it >> I saw a small aoe suggestion aerlier on the thread, i'll second, with less damages on additional target though
mass sleep >> well... not so usefull in team, as it can't last, and ha no secondaty effect >> I'd add moderate -tohit, -recharge, 5 to 10 sec  after the target's awakening, as he's coming out of slumber. maybe add a chance to keep the sleep effect after the first hit taken.
Tk >> can't event start to find any usefullness. Not sure I ever saw it beibg used on HC, and very few times on live >> no idea here, exept replace it.
Mass confusion >> great power.. if you don't pekk at seeds of confusion >> reduce the cooldown, and add a "mind" signature effect, like may be a berserk (fortitude-like) effect on confused foe.

 

[tidge]

1 hour ago, kazrack35 said:

Mind control

I'm leveling up a Mind/- Controller through regular play, and while I know that Confuse will be much improved when I can slot Coercive Confusion at level 50, I'm having some serious issues in solo play with Elite Bosses. I was hoping that Confuse could bridge the 'control' gap by keeping their aggro off me while I try to stack other controls/debuffs/damage, but this strategy has been seriously unreliable so far (even with Mass Confusion as a backup application).

 

I'm reluctant to as for an emergency 'buff' to the single-target Confuse (a T4 power), but I am non-plussed that the (from the Mind Control primary) control effect of Sleep is available to be 'doubled up' at (T1/T8; level 8), Hold is at (T3, T7; level 18) but that to get a 'fast (high Magnitude) application' of Confuse it has to be (T4/T9; level 32).

 

Legit question, no snark intended: Would it be game altering to increase the magnitude of the single-target Confuse? I suppose it would allow AVs to be confused quicker...

Edited November 12, 2020 by tidge