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Ultimo

An old thought... probably been suggested many times...

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So... it's never seemed quite fair to me that Defenders (and Corruptors, Masterminds, etc.) can't actually use their defensive powers THEMSELVES.

 

For example, my latest project involves making a Green Lantern homage, and I really like the idea of Force Fields.  It's totally in character.  However, I can't use any of my powers to defend ME (except PFF, but you can't fight with that active, and Dispersion Bubble just lacks the personality of the smaller bubbles... and very often makes it hard to SEE - and yes, I know there's a minimal FX setting).  I never quite understood WHY we can't use our own bubbles on ourselves.

 

Now, you might suggest that would make Defenders (etc.) OP, but I don't agree.  I find them to be... honestly rather weak.  Their damage is pretty minimal, and they have next to no personal defenses.  Sure, they can take things like Combat Jumping, Tough and Weave and the like.... but I don't know why they're FORCED to... I mean, they HAVE defensive powers, they're just not allowed to USE them.  Moreover, if they take the team buffs, that's three power slots that are doing nothing for them when they're solo (which is most of the time, in my experience).  I find that distressing, because it puts them at an even GREATER disadvantage.

 

So, my suggestion is to allow characters with these kinds of power to use them on THEMSELVES.  Perhaps they could have a lesser effect, or shorter duration or something... but they really should be able to use them for their own sake.

 

First Responders are always taught... Help yourself FIRST, you're no use to anyone if you're dead.

 

 

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Yes it's not nearly a new thought (surprise! right 😜).  And this issue is far more an issue for the buffing sets vs those that debuff for what I'd hope are obvious reasons.  

 

Not sure how truly overpowered it would make Defenders (support sets in general) as essentially it would make them 'overpowered' one team member sooner.  That said I've no doubt the toughest deadliest teams consist of predominantly support characters.

Edited by Doomguide2005

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On 11/10/2020 at 8:57 PM, Ultimo said:

So... it's never seemed quite fair to me that Defenders (and Corruptors, Masterminds, etc.) can't actually use their defensive powers THEMSELVES.

 

For example, my latest project involves making a Green Lantern homage, and I really like the idea of Force Fields.  It's totally in character.  However, I can't use any of my powers to defend ME (except PFF, but you can't fight with that active, and Dispersion Bubble just lacks the personality of the smaller bubbles... and very often makes it hard to SEE - and yes, I know there's a minimal FX setting).  I never quite understood WHY we can't use our own bubbles on ourselves.

 

Now, you might suggest that would make Defenders (etc.) OP, but I don't agree.  I find them to be... honestly rather weak.  Their damage is pretty minimal, and they have next to no personal defenses.  Sure, they can take things like Combat Jumping, Tough and Weave and the like.... but I don't know why they're FORCED to... I mean, they HAVE defensive powers, they're just not allowed to USE them.  Moreover, if they take the team buffs, that's three power slots that are doing nothing for them when they're solo (which is most of the time, in my experience).  I find that distressing, because it puts them at an even GREATER disadvantage.

 

So, my suggestion is to allow characters with these kinds of power to use them on THEMSELVES.  Perhaps they could have a lesser effect, or shorter duration or something... but they really should be able to use them for their own sake.

 

First Responders are always taught... Help yourself FIRST, you're no use to anyone if you're dead.

 

 

Blaster secondaries are getting a reworking now, maybe next could be support sets? Seams possible anyway! I'm sure there are ways to implement some of these ideas, even if it's  something along the lines of Defender's damage buff when solo then diminished as the team grows? I really enjoy those ATs (fender/ cor) and can be very versatile game play. Around 2002 I played my first character Fire/Kin controller and have always wanted to have Increase Density and speed boost work for the one that's giving it. How can you give something you don't have? Anyway, I hear you! In the meantime we can search out teams that can buff back. I hear all defender/corr type teams can really tear it up!

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On 11/11/2020 at 3:57 AM, Ultimo said:

So... it's never seemed quite fair to me that Defenders (and Corruptors, Masterminds, etc.) can't actually use their defensive powers THEMSELVES.

 

For example, my latest project involves making a Green Lantern homage, and I really like the idea of Force Fields.  It's totally in character.  However, I can't use any of my powers to defend ME (except PFF, but you can't fight with that active, and Dispersion Bubble just lacks the personality of the smaller bubbles... and very often makes it hard to SEE - and yes, I know there's a minimal FX setting).  I never quite understood WHY we can't use our own bubbles on ourselves.

 

Now, you might suggest that would make Defenders (etc.) OP, but I don't agree.  I find them to be... honestly rather weak.  Their damage is pretty minimal, and they have next to no personal defenses.  Sure, they can take things like Combat Jumping, Tough and Weave and the like.... but I don't know why they're FORCED to... I mean, they HAVE defensive powers, they're just not allowed to USE them.  Moreover, if they take the team buffs, that's three power slots that are doing nothing for them when they're solo (which is most of the time, in my experience).  I find that distressing, because it puts them at an even GREATER disadvantage.

 

So, my suggestion is to allow characters with these kinds of power to use them on THEMSELVES.  Perhaps they could have a lesser effect, or shorter duration or something... but they really should be able to use them for their own sake.

 

First Responders are always taught... Help yourself FIRST, you're no use to anyone if you're dead.

 

 

Maybe using the same decrease based on the size of the team than Vigilance.


Just another French Player

So Excuse my old, bad and too french English !

 

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I strongly agree.

 

This distinction between team and self buffs has irritated me from the beginning: it makes little sense thematically, and exacerbates the differences in solo playability between archetypes. It appears to be a decision to support a standard MMORPG class trinity. Frustrated cries for something closer to parity were met with retorts from other parts of the player base along the lines of: no one would team if everyone could solo. Ignoring, of course, the fact that the majority of game content could be tackled solo, if you were playing one of a small number of ATs.

But CoH in many other regards has not fully committed to this design choice, and is the stronger for it. A Controller is not a Healer; a Scrapper is not solely DPS. And the problems of a Tank/DPS/Healer design are well known (see e.g. https://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/132607/rethinking_the_trinity_of_mmo_.php). The Defender AT is in better shape than it was initially: Vigilance helps to address the damage problem, and IO set bonuses can ameliorate some of the survivability issues. But the huge disparity in solo capability between ATs remains, and Defenders are certainly in the shallow end of the pool.

From a playability point of view:

  • Without a good reason not to support it, the full gamut of ATs and power sets should be able to be employed in creating and playing a particular character concept.
  • One can't presume to always be able to play in a team, nor should players be forced to play in a team. On one hand, it's simply not always possible to find team members. On the other, one might not always want to play in a team. This decision should be independent of the AT one chooses to play.
  • What may be an enjoyable romp through a mission at one speed, can be a dull chore when slowed down by a factor of three or more. Contrariwise, being able to trivially complete missions owing to a different AT choice is also undesirable.
  • The notion of 'feeling heroic' is contentious, but for many players, myself included, if a battle with a single lieutenant of a great many in a mission is a struggle, it pegs the character's power at only one step above a random mook. It can be uninspiring. A character's effective strength against mission foes can in fact decrease with level, at least over part of their career.

In the end game, when IO bonuses, epic pool and incarnate powers have bolstered Defender survivability and damage, one finds that the relative utility of the Defender on a team is diminished in end game content: the same advantages that have lifted the Defender up, have also, of course, helped other ATs, and outside special mission mechanics, the benefit of a Defender may simply be less than that brought by adding another damage-focused character.

Removing self vs team bonuses can help redress some of this imbalance and promote AT diversity.

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TL;DR: Yes, let Defender powers effect themselves. In return, remove the solo buff they get (not totally solo but close).

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lol, I would absolutely love this, but it would be so OP. Imagine a kinetics defender or corruptor with fulcrum shift+speed boost+2 siphon speeds+increased density, that would be capped damage, 90% recharge, 40% s/e resistance (defender values), and mez protection. That's insane for one character to have access to out of the box without any IOs, pool powers, or incarnates. 

 

A cold domination toon could add 1k max HP (but more importantly a ton of regen), add 31% defense to all positions, and still have sleet+heat loss for a ton of -res and huge end recovery. 

 

Most sets would be brokenly strong if you changed all their powers to affect themselves too. The game is easy enough as it is, I want the power, but I think it would lessen the game as a whole. 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Darkir said:

lol, I would absolutely love this, but it would be so OP. Imagine a kinetics defender or corruptor with fulcrum shift+speed boost+2 siphon speeds+increased density, that would be capped damage, 90% recharge, 40% s/e resistance (defender values), and mez protection. That's insane for one character to have access to out of the box without any IOs, pool powers, or incarnates. 

 

A cold domination toon could add 1k max HP (but more importantly a ton of regen), add 31% defense to all positions, and still have sleet+heat loss for a ton of -res and huge end recovery. 

 

Most sets would be brokenly strong if you changed all their powers to affect themselves too. The game is easy enough as it is, I want the power, but I think it would lessen the game as a whole. 

 

 

If it's not broken when the Defender applies it to someone else, why would it be broken when it's the Defender who gets the benefit?

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When the game was first designed, it was around a 5 AT system... a Pentity?  The original hope was that it would force teaming since no one char could do the hard content alone (TFs and the like).

 

That died in like I1 when certain builds broke the system fairly easily (I'm looking at you Ice/Fire tanks and AR/Dev blasters). and since then it's been going to a more solo friendly version of the game.

 

That being said, I don't know if I can think of a legit reason for a Defender to not be allowed to self buff due to all the other restrictions on the class (low damage ceiling, low damage in general). We're really only taking about a few buffs from several sets.

 

Some don't even have much of this issue, such as TA, Dark, Rad, EAff (mostly), storm, time, traps, NAff. 

That leaves poison, kin Emp, FF, Sonic, Cold, Therm and Pain.

 

Interesting that those with self buff issues are my least favorite Defender primaries (Poison being the exception). I tend to like them better as secondaries... prolly for this reason.

 

I will say it's never even slowed me down from having Defenders as my favorite AT.

I usually looked at issues like this as my char being a "lesser" hero (think Daredevil or Batman) as opposed to a "greater" hero (like Thor or Supes).

 

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