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Blackfeather

Make Ice Control Cooler: A Control Powerset Buff

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Hey there @WindDemon21, apologies it took a while, needed to think about the best way to address those suggestions of yours, thanks for putting them down here! I'll go through them one by one.

On 11/17/2020 at 7:51 AM, WindDemon21 said:

1. For all ST immobilizes, make the dot all go within 2 seconds, with bumped up damage and recharge.

To my knowledge, increases to damage also result in an increase to endurance usage, standard damage formula and all that. I'm not entirely certain that this would be a positive change to the Control powersets. Generally, the lower damaging ones are that way due to a lack of options to deal damage, rather than the actual performance of their powers: Electric and Earth Control are nice examples of that (compare them to Darkness Control for contrast).

 

It's true that Ice Control is generally lacking in damage as a whole, but I think a more effective change would be to introduce additional options for damage, rather than just increasing what's currently available.

 

To this end, per my original post, Shiver gets some minor damage attached to it, as does Flash Freeze if an enemy prematurely breaks their constraints. Additionally, more slotting options in some powers provides further opportunities to do proc damage, something that's somewhat lacking in Ice Control, as @Sir Myshkin has attested to in their Controller proc-monster thread.

On 11/17/2020 at 7:51 AM, WindDemon21 said:

2. Flash Freeze: Personally I'd rather the damage just be removed completely, but either way it needs it's animation time reduced. The havoc punch/bone smasher animation would be perfect for it. Have it include some -speed/-rech, and it's rech should be 45s not 90.

I've mentioned it before in this thread , but I'd rather not have the damage removed myself: Ice Control is already a fairly low damage powerset, and I'm looking to offset that somewhat, rather than exacerbate it. Being able to slot Targeted AoE enhancements also enables the power to carry quite a number of procs.

 

Something to keep in mind is that a similar power: Salt Crystals in Earth Control also has the exact same recharge time. I'm also cognisant of @th0ughtGun's concerns about Ice Control becoming overly effective at taking alpha strikes - as mentioned before to them, I intend to keep its soft control via -Recharge/-Movement debuffs at the forefront. I think decreasing Flash Freeze's recharge time would go against this goal.

 

That being said, per my original post, my proposal does indeed include -Recharge/-Movement: I do believe that Sleep powers ought to do something else alongside the status effect that they inflict for the most part.

On 11/17/2020 at 7:51 AM, WindDemon21 said:

3. Shiver: I love this power, but it's absurd how it only lasts 18s with a 30s rech, where even the blaster version lasts 18s but is on a 12s recharge. I would imagine that these numbers were likely reversed on inception and just nobody ever bothered to look at it, as most people i see usually skip it anyway. I would picture more something like a 15s rech, and 45 second duration.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on what I've done to Shiver, as per my original proposal!

Quote
  • IceFormation_Shiver.png.468db11f076574e4effb0b11c91a3736.png Shiver: Ranged (Cone), Foe -Recharge, -SPD, Foe Hold, Minor DMG(Cold)

    • 50% chance to Hold (Mag 2)

    • Deals minor Cold damage

    • Can now be slotted with Hold and Targeted AoE enhancements

Similarly, @oedipus_tex has mentioned that Shiver for Blasters (Ice Manipulation) has been changed somewhat on Beta, which can be seen here:

Quote
  • IceManipulation_Shiver.png.40a1dab0f47fdb47bfedb73cc0ce1636.png Shiver
    • Half of the debuff now lasts 60 seconds (previously the entire debuff dropped off after 18 seconds, now only half of it does)

I think that'd be a fair thing to adopt for Ice Control as well - what do you think?

On 11/17/2020 at 7:51 AM, WindDemon21 said:

4. Ice Slick: For starters, it's insanely dumb, that this, and ice patch, can not be enhanced for slow. This needs to be added and allow for slow sets. Additionally, as a primarily cornerstone power for ice control, I feel it's recharge should be bumped down to 60 seconds.

Psst, take a look at my original post. 😉

On 11/17/2020 at 7:51 AM, WindDemon21 said:

5. Glacier: I love this power, but like all controller aoe holds, esp since the blaster nuke changes, should have their recharged reduced to at least 2 minutes instead of 4.

I think a general discussion on the role of AoE Holds, their recharge times, and how they should be treated is worth an entire thread in of itself - @SeraphimKensai has brought this up a while back here.

 

Since this was more a general change that'd affect multiple powersets, I thought it'd be best to leave it out: per my OP, I did find that the recharge debuff on Glacier was oddly low, however, hence why its duration was increased.

On 11/17/2020 at 7:51 AM, WindDemon21 said:

6. Arctic Air: A terrific power, until detoggled. Like all interactive toggles, they should only suppress when mezzed, not toggled off. This coding already exists on things like blaster sustain toggles.

At the moment, it sounds like that's working as intended. Toggle Suppression only occurs for self and ally-affecting powers - I think a change to how this works, to allow enemy-affecting toggles to function the same way is something more fundamental to change, and is worth a separate thread in of itself: it can't just happen for one power.

On 11/17/2020 at 7:51 AM, WindDemon21 said:

7. Jack Frost: probably my favorite pet, but would be good to have frozen aura mag 3 or frost for more damage. I actually dislike the icicles idea, cause it wakes them up from from flash freeze.

If you're referring to this from my original post:

Quote
  • IceFormation_FlashFreeze.png.70e45c9c9764b9b7f5daf8f0a1d0ae89.png Flash Freeze: Ranged (Targeted AoE), Minor DMG(Cold/Lethal), Foe Sleep, Summon Ice Formations

    • Each affected enemy now summons a fragile, short lived ice formation

      • Summoned icicles apply -Recharge and -Movement in a small area

      • Has a small aura of immobilisation and taunt that affects the targeted enemy

      • Deals minor Cold/Lethal damage to targeted enemy if prematurely destroyed

    • Can now be slotted with Taunt and Slow enhancements

These changes were not designed to prematurely wake enemies up. As said, this additional damage only occurs if the ice formation is destroyed, and only on the enemy it was trapping (credit goes to @Darkneblade for this!). As such, this will generally only occur if the enemy 'inside' this formation is already awake.

 

Indeed, this change was primarily made to act as a way of temporarily occupying foes, even if they wake up from the Sleep immediately after, forcing them to waste an attack or two destroying the ice around them. It also functions as a way of hindering stronger enemies for a few moments, with higher levels of protection against status effects.

 

Hope this clears things up!

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3 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

To my knowledge, increases to damage also result in an increase to endurance usage, standard damage formula and all that. I'm not entirely certain that this would be a positive change to the Control powersets. Generally, the lower damaging ones are that way due to a lack of options to deal damage, rather than the actual performance of their powers: Electric and Earth Control are nice examples of that (compare them to Darkness Control for contrast).

 

It's true that Ice Control is generally lacking in damage as a whole, but I think a more effective change would be to introduce additional options for damage, rather than just increasing what's currently available.

 

To this end, per my original post, Shiver gets some minor damage attached to it, as does Flash Freeze if an enemy prematurely breaks their constraints. Additionally, more slotting options in some powers provides further opportunities to do proc damage, something that's somewhat lacking in Ice Control, as @Sir Myshkin has attested to in their Controller proc-monster thread.

I  get that, but at the same time a longer rech, with more damage means more DPA, as well as better proc-ability. That was a change suggested to ALL controller ST immobilizes, cause as of right now they're pretty bad for focusing on damage or procs.

 

I would also prefer to keep shiver without a damage component as well, as in any flash freeze scenario, cause no matter how it changes we know it will largely remain a sleep first power, it is best to follow up with shiver without actually waking the mobs. If you want to wake them up, that's what frostbite is for. Shiver just needs better adjusted stats, not a damage component. Especially as with AA, you're mainly in melee anyway to want to spam a cone like that, hence the longer duration needed for shiver.

 

8 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

I've mentioned it before in this thread , but I'd rather not have the damage removed myself: Ice Control is already a fairly low damage powerset, and I'm looking to offset that somewhat, rather than exacerbate it. Being able to slot Targeted AoE enhancements also enables the power to carry quite a number of procs.

 

Something to keep in mind is that a similar power: Salt Crystals in Earth Control also has the exact same recharge time. I'm also cognisant of @th0ughtGun's concerns about Ice Control becoming overly effective at taking alpha strikes - as mentioned before to them, I intend to keep its soft control via -Recharge/-Movement debuffs at the forefront. I think decreasing Flash Freeze's recharge time would go against this goal.

 

That being said, per my original post, my proposal does indeed include -Recharge/-Movement: I do believe that Sleep powers ought to do something else alongside the status effect that they inflict for the most part.

I agree to an extent, and not that ice control shouldn't have some sort of a damage bump, but simply that having that damage with the sleep itself, is really bad for starting groups. Being a sleep already has it's main drawback for starting fights like that, and besides ice slick ice has no other "every mob control" that almost every other control set has.

 

The ideas floating around about having the damage occur, at least in some form, when they wake up/broken out of it is fine, but when you're talking about using it for a proc power, it's completely negating it's actual use as a fight opener like every other control set can do, which again, ice isn't stepping on any toes with it's only real every mob opener being a sleep.

 

I think, in a large part of this discussion, where procs are the consideration for damage, that one, the slow sets in this game REALLY need an overhaul on stats (damage being more enhanced that end/rech or even accuracy in some what!??) and in bonuses, and outright needing more sets, which at least 2 more with a damage proc each would give you those procs right there. So if you want to slot damage procs, THAT'S where it should come from, not from having a tiny amount of damage just to be able to slot those procs in it.

 

Also, how about a 3rd new slow set, with a -res proc? Yes please. But damage in flash freeze's initial hit causing retaliation from it's only every mob "lockdown" power, no thanks.

 

16 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

IceFormation_Shiver.png.468db11f076574e4effb0b11c91a3736.png Shiver: Ranged (Cone), Foe -Recharge, -SPD, Foe Hold, Minor DMG(Cold)

  • 50% chance to Hold (Mag 2)

  • Deals minor Cold damage

  • Can now be slotted with Hold and Targeted AoE enhancements

As mentioned, no damage on shiver or anything else that would wake up from sleep. It's a great power on it's own, it should just have better duration/rech/acc.

 

23 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:
Quote
  • IceManipulation_Shiver.png.40a1dab0f47fdb47bfedb73cc0ce1636.png Shiver
    • Half of the debuff now lasts 60 seconds (previously the entire debuff dropped off after 18 seconds, now only half of it does)

I think that'd be a fair thing to adopt for Ice Control as well - what do you think?

Again that's the blaster version, this is one of our main powers as ice control. It should last it's full duration, just longer. I honestly see it as one of the most cornerstone powers besides AA for ice control when I take it, I just hate how it's stats are, and that even the blaster version is easier to use.

 

25 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

At the moment, it sounds like that's working as intended. Toggle Suppression only occurs for self and ally-affecting powers - I think a change to how this works, to allow enemy-affecting toggles to function the same way is something more fundamental to change, and is worth a separate thread in of itself: it can't just happen for one power.

Yes I agree, they all should only suppress not detoggle (stares at rad emission).

 

28 minutes ago, Blackfeather said:

These changes were not designed to prematurely wake enemies up. As said, this additional damage only occurs if the ice formation is destroyed, and only on the enemy it was trapping (credit goes to @Darkneblade for this!). As such, this will generally only occur if the enemy 'inside' this formation is already awake.

 

Indeed, this change was primarily made to act as a way of temporarily occupying foes, even if they wake up from the Sleep immediately after, forcing them to waste an attack or two destroying the ice around them. It also functions as a way of hindering stronger enemies for a few moments, with higher levels of protection against status effects.

 

Hope this clears things up!

Yep, as mentioned above this would work, just again, the damage would be in the formation, not the initial sleep hit.

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Also per shiver, again just needs better stats, but in the aspect for the set to have more damage (which most any other suggestion already has done so), it could even be given a -res, or even more on target with cold powers a -hp debuff. Again though no damage or anything that would wake mobs up from sleep.

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5 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

I'll have to test again but I don't think Mesmerize has that problem. Flash Freeze didn't always either, but it has been an issue as far as I can tell since homecoming for whatever reason. WHATEVER changes come to Flash Freeze, that small damage at the start of it has to go.

5 hours ago, Vanden said:

No, Mesmerize definitely has that problem too - the sleep is applied 1/4th of a second after the damage hits, and the AI usually isn't allowed to queue up an attack within that window, but sometimes it does.

4 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

Yeah it may I wasn't sure, I just know since it's a damage power first primarily, and mag 4s bosses a good while after or at least detoggles stuff, that it's much less of an issue vs. Flash Freeze. I do know  for sure that they don't retaliate often as well, just couldn't guarantee they 100% don't.

Yup. Here's a nice look at how Flash Freeze works - all damaging Sleeps do similar things, inflicting a Sleep after 0.25 seconds. For reference, here's Mesmerize. If it applied immediately (with the caveat of not breaking), it wouldn't be an issue.

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Hey there, thanks for taking a look at this thread, @oedipus_tex! Those thoughts sound interesting, let's see...

5 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

The Blaster version of Shiver was recently buffed.

The power now has a 60 second duration, up from 18 seconds. At the very minimum Ice Control's Shiver should match that. I'm on the fence on whether or not this power should become a true mezz. There's an argument for and against it.

I'd definitely be alright with extending the duration - do you think it should work in the same way? I.e. halving in potency after those 18 seconds.

 

I've got a couple of reasons for Shiver getting a 50% chance to Hold:

  • It provides Ice Control with a means of handling initial strikes at a similar level range to other Control powersets
    • The lower reliability and strength (Mag 2) helps keep Ice Control's "lockdown via -Recharge/-Movement" at the forefront
    • It's a potential draw for Dominators to go Ice Control via Domination, via a chance for a Mag 4 Hold?
    • Currently only Flash Freeze can do this, and at a later comparative level
      • Also an AoE Sleep, which alone are kind of lacklustre (my proposal hopes to improve that)
  • There's precedence for a near-identical power doing something like this: Poison's Neurotoxic Breath (25%, Mag 2)
    • While it's not quite the same as one version of Shiver getting a buff, it's arguably close enough to warrant looking at
    • Doubly so because Neurotoxic Breath comes from a Support powerset, while Shiver is in a Control powerset (hence the higher Hold chance)

Would definitely be interested in hearing the arguments against such a change!

10 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

There is such a thing as Unresistable -Recharge.

The Kinetics power Siphon Speed deals -20% Recharge that is unresistable. This means AVs eat the full debuff. I think giving Ice Control a similar amount of -Recharge would make its abilities worthwhile.

Out of curiosity, how much -Recharge does it take to floor an Archvillain, come to think of it? I think it was something like -500%? Ice Control on a Controller at the moment has, let's see...

  • Chillblain = -37.5%
  • Block of Ice = -37.5%
  • Frostbite = -37.5%
  • Arctic Air = -81.25%
  • Shiver = -81.25%
  • Glacier = -62.5%
  • Jack Frost (Chilling Embrace) = Unknown?

I wouldn't mind having some additional -Recharge to play with, especially given that Ice Control's schtick is handling longer, drawn out fights. Which power do you think would be the best fit for it? Otherwise, I'm thinking of making each power have a portion of their -Movement/-Recharge unresistable, maybe to the tune of ~10-20% or so?

10 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

Arctic Air should Dominate somehow.

Arctic Air currently is double-nerfed. It has both the shorter mezz duration Dominators get outside of Domination, and lacks the longer duration Dominators should get in Domination mode. Note that Domination does not have to clone the 30% Chance for Mag 3 if developers think that is overpowered. There are some powers that only Dominate at Mag 1 or that adjust the mezz chances in other ways.

 

Personally I think the best scheme for this power is a switch mechanic based on the player's Domination state.

  • Outside Domination: Use current "normal" mezz rules.
  • Inside Domination: Suppress "normal" mezz rules. Replace with 30% chance for Mag 6 Confuse, 4 second duration. That would make the power confuse bosses but still leave holes in coverage.

That does sound odd, especially given that Seeds of Confusion works with Domination, and can be easily permanently kept up. It sounds like an oversight that should be fixed. I wouldn't even be opposed to Domination working directly on it (i.e. double Magnitude, double duration). Combined with those proposed changes to Shiver, there'd be more than enough reasons for a Dominator to pick this over a Controller, with the trade-off being primarily the amount of -Recharge/-Movement they both deal...oh.

 

Hmm. Going back to that previous point, how much should a Dominator be able to debuff -Recharge/-Movement compared to a Controller? Having the same portion of Ice Control be unresistable does mean that there may be a bit less reason to go Controller for the soft control than Dominator, but not sure about the numbers there.

10 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

It's possible to make a Hold or other mezz that breaks when the enemy takes damage.

This was proven with the new Blaster power Choking Cloud. I could see this put to creative use in a few powers. The power developer can control the chances of the mezz breaking on damage. In Choking Cloud its 50% but that can be adjusted per power or effect.

Oh! Which powers in Ice Control were you thinking could benefit from making use of a mechanic like this, out of curiosity?

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So, a bit of a side-note to all this but I always wanted Ice Control to have both a "Freeze" and "Shatter" mechanic.

 

Freeze would be a special proc that allows all your -Speed powers to stack up to a chance of either Sleep or full on Hold vs targets as you keep applying powers. Think of it like, each ice control power has a X% chance to proc a mag 1, 5s freeze hold or something similar which when stacked up would encase the foe in ice.

 

Shatter would then be a unique benefit given this common trope:

subfreezefatalitybc.gif

 

Targets encased in ice by either Holds or Sleeps by Ice control (see above too) would not only have a massive amount of -Smashing resistance applied, but if the hold / sleep is broken the ice could Shatter in a small PBAoE to cause damage and slow nearby targets.

 

Basically, Ice would remain the king of building up control and even damage opportunities over time (sort of like a snowball 😉 ), and allow more team interactions to boot.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Galaxy Brain said:

So, a bit of a side-note to all this but I always wanted Ice Control to have both a "Freeze" and "Shatter" mechanic.

 

Freeze would be a special proc that allows all your -Speed powers to stack up to a chance of either Sleep or full on Hold vs targets as you keep applying powers. Think of it like, each ice control power has a X% chance to proc a mag 1, 5s freeze hold or something similar which when stacked up would encase the foe in ice.

 

Shatter would then be a unique benefit given this common trope:

subfreezefatalitybc.gif

 

Targets encased in ice by either Holds or Sleeps by Ice control (see above too) would not only have a massive amount of -Smashing resistance applied, but if the hold / sleep is broken the ice could Shatter in a small PBAoE to cause damage and slow nearby targets.

 

Basically, Ice would remain the king of building up control and even damage opportunities over time (sort of like a snowball 😉 ), and allow more team interactions to boot.

 

 

Yes lol. Was even thinking for flash freeze, nix the damage until shatter like suggested, but do a mini "icy caltrops" patch where it explodes.

 

Also per shiver again, I'm fine with the chance to hold, as long as it doesn't break sleep, or affect the power getting better stats.

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Thinking on it more, making it all a Sleep would be more visceral as it "breaks" anyways so it'd make more sense when you shatter the ice. The more sleeps you stack, the stronger the effects when you shatter the ice.

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19 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Freeze would be a special proc that allows all your -Speed powers to stack up to a chance of either Sleep or full on Hold vs targets as you keep applying powers. Think of it like, each ice control power has a X% chance to proc a mag 1, 5s freeze hold or something similar which when stacked up would encase the foe in ice.

 

Shatter would then be a unique benefit given this common trope:

Brilliant!

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On 11/18/2020 at 4:54 AM, Blackfeather said:

Oh! Which powers in Ice Control were you thinking could benefit from making use of a mechanic like this, out of curiosity?

 

My proposal is that all AoE Holds would have two varieties:

  • The standard 240 second recharge flavor that exists now
  • A "lite" flavor inspired by Choking Cloud with these stats:
    • 120 recharge
    • 10 second Hold duration (Controller numbers, down from 15 sec)
    • Special: Enemies who take damage have a 50% Chance to break out of the hold for 3 seconds

 

Players would use Null the Gull to swap between Hold varieties or there could be some other mechanism.

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23 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

I  get that, but at the same time a longer rech, with more damage means more DPA, as well as better proc-ability. That was a change suggested to ALL controller ST immobilizes, cause as of right now they're pretty bad for focusing on damage or procs.

Mmhm - per my response a change like that with a swathe of alterations across multiple powersets I'd probably put in a dedicated "Buff Control Powersets" thread: I tend to try to avoid making overarching alterations to how powers work as part of something more focused (unless said big change is the focus, like my thread on providing a means to let Controllers lock down AVs/GMs more easily). Basically, discussing the amount of changes that it'd take to the archetypes as a whole is worth a discussion in of itself.

23 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

I would also prefer to keep shiver without a damage component as well, as in any flash freeze scenario, cause no matter how it changes we know it will largely remain a sleep first power, it is best to follow up with shiver without actually waking the mobs. If you want to wake them up, that's what frostbite is for. Shiver just needs better adjusted stats, not a damage component. Especially as with AA, you're mainly in melee anyway to want to spam a cone like that, hence the longer duration needed for shiver.

You know, I actually didn't think of activating Shiver straight after Flash Freeze as something that'd be used all that much because I just flat out don't take AoE Sleeps most of the time - it's suboptimal to me, especially when Ice Control has a power pick that basically negates its effect just before (Ice Slick and its knockdown patch).

 

Combine this with the fact that I tend to combine Ice Control with a secondary that provides a means of reducing the impact of alpha strikes (e.g. Nature Affinity's Spore Cloud with its -ToHit), and it means that Flash Freeze just didn't stand out all that much to me as something to take.

 

I do think I can answer your concerns about the proposed changes to Shiver that I'm making - they'll be similar in nature to the ones that I talked about with @Monos King when they asked about how it'd might affect Flash Freeze:

  • Flash Freeze comes in at level 18 - kind of late in the set to take alpha strikes
    • Other powersets have something to deal with enemies en masse as early as level 8 or 12
  • Arctic Air is generally a better choice to follow up Flash Freeze with: it actually confuses enemies rather than just slowing them down
  • An enemy slept by Flash Freeze still won't do anything, so the slow in Shiver will only matter if an enemy prematurely wakes up
    • Otherwise Shiver's effect is 'wasted', since there are no attacks to slow down (enemies still asleep)

Given all these factors, I do think the proposed modifications to Shiver provides more benefits than drawbacks.

On 11/18/2020 at 3:34 PM, WindDemon21 said:

I agree to an extent, and not that ice control shouldn't have some sort of a damage bump, but simply that having that damage with the sleep itself, is really bad for starting groups. Being a sleep already has it's main drawback for starting fights like that, and besides ice slick ice has no other "every mob control" that almost every other control set has.

 

The ideas floating around about having the damage occur, at least in some form, when they wake up/broken out of it is fine, but when you're talking about using it for a proc power, it's completely negating it's actual use as a fight opener like every other control set can do, which again, ice isn't stepping on any toes with it's only real every mob opener being a sleep.

 

I think, in a large part of this discussion, where procs are the consideration for damage, that one, the slow sets in this game REALLY need an overhaul on stats (damage being more enhanced that end/rech or even accuracy in some what!??) and in bonuses, and outright needing more sets, which at least 2 more with a damage proc each would give you those procs right there. So if you want to slot damage procs, THAT'S where it should come from, not from having a tiny amount of damage just to be able to slot those procs in it.

 

Also, how about a 3rd new slow set, with a -res proc? Yes please. But damage in flash freeze's initial hit causing retaliation from it's only every mob "lockdown" power, no thanks.

I'm going to disagree here. Adding damage to powers that inflict Sleep on enemies isn't a problem. They only cause enemies to retaliate due to being lazily designed (i.e. with a small window in between damage being inflicted + Sleep being applied). Fix that, and Sleeps that do damage cease to be an issue. It shouldn't be a reason to get rid of their damage outright, especially on Ice Control, given its already low ability to deal damage.

 

That being said, you're right about Flash Freeze currently being the only opener in Ice Control, and that as an AoE Sleep, it's somewhat lacklustre - that's why I proposed the changes I did to it in the original post. Alongside this, my changes to Shiver were designed to provide Ice Control with another means of opening a fight: by giving it a 50% chance to Hold affected enemies (Mag 2).

On 11/18/2020 at 3:34 PM, WindDemon21 said:

Yes I agree, they all should only suppress not detoggle (stares at rad emission).

Probably a good idea to make a new thread on this in that case - I'm personally fine with how toggles work at the moment.

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1 hour ago, Blackfeather said:
  • Arctic Air is generally a better choice to follow up Flash Freeze with: it actually confuses enemies rather than just slowing them down
  • An enemy slept by Flash Freeze still won't do anything, so the slow in Shiver will only matter if an enemy prematurely wakes up
    • Otherwise Shiver's effect is 'wasted', since there are no attacks to slow down (enemies still asleep)

Given all these factors, I do think the proposed modifications to Shiver provides more benefits than drawbacks.

You're not using it right. Flash freeze is JUST for the alpha (if needed obviously ie no meat shield, or obviously if you get a second mob etc)

 

Also, if they're slept, the confuse from AA isn't doing anything either unless they're prematurely woken up as well :P.

 

You freeze them first (which that damage is bugging and getting retaliation from it ruining this aspect), then you shiver/debuff from your secondary,  jump in, let AA further slow and confuse them (see you still use it, you just don't ONLY use it. This is where shiver needs that longer duration to keep working when you're in melee since its a cone), then lay an ice slick down and frostbite.

 

This way half the mob is confused, half is being knocked down, and all have their recharge seriously hurting.

 

The problems right now though is that damage is waking them to retaliate first before they're slept, and shiver has very borked recharge/ duration stats. Removing the damage and making FFs recharge 60 seconds, Ice slick 60 seconds, and Shiver's duration 60 seconds would round out all those powers much more perfectly for this setup keeping ice the king of soft control.

 

Ffs purpose is just to give you that time to set up those other powers after if needed (again ie no meat shield)

 

I'm not against shiver getting a hold chance, just as long as it doesn't wake them up which iirc it doesn't, but no damage for sure cause that would.

 

And I'm all for the whole after effect ice block thing for FF, but that initial damage either way needs to go.

 

2 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

I'm going to disagree here. Adding damage to powers that inflict Sleep on enemies isn't a problem. They only cause enemies to retaliate due to being lazily designed (i.e. with a small window in between damage being inflicted + Sleep being applied). Fix that, and Sleeps that do damage cease to be an issue. It shouldn't be a reason to get rid of their damage outright, especially on Ice Control, given its already low ability to deal damage.

Oh you seemed to have misinterpreted me on that one. I'm not saying it's bad for it to HAVE that damage, only that it seems to be something they haven't figured out how to fix yet so it no longer bugs and causes retaliation.

 

If they fix it so this no longer happens, then that's fine. But if they CAN'T figure out how to do this, then the damage (at least up front) has to go.

 

2 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

That being said, you're right about Flash Freeze currently being the only opener in Ice Control, and that as an AoE Sleep, it's somewhat lacklustre - that's why I proposed the changes I did to it in the original post. Alongside this, my changes to Shiver were designed to provide Ice Control with another means of opening a fight: by giving it a 50% chance to Hold affected enemies (Mag 2).

If you're going that route, I guarantee you that only a 50% chance for mag 2 hold nabbing only half of the minions isn't going to help anywhere near enough for an opener. To give it more proc-ability sure, but (obv excluding lockdown proc) a power should not be designed around procs.

 

Again if they want to add it, and it doesn't break the sleep I have zero problems with that, just that it's not worth it if it costs inadequate stats that the power needs.

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I think these would really interesting changes to ice control that might get me to finally try it out; I'd really be interested in the the post-sleep taunting pets in Flash Freeze, which would be fairly unique to the game outside maybe Dark Control's Shades.  However, it occurs to me that some of these changes, particularly those to Flash Freeze, might be a bit too complicated to implement.  Instead here are two changes that I think might address the concerns in the OP, while not being too radical*:

 

1. Add a Mag 3 Sleep to Shiver so it operates similar to Sonic Blast's Siren Song.

 

2. Change Flash Freeze from a Mag 3 Sleep into a Mag 3 Stun.  Also add a debuff such as -Res/-Def.

 

The first makes shiver into an alpha-strike power and moves the sleep from Level 18 to Level 8, which is inline with other control sets.  The second gives the set a second AoE "hard" control outside of Glacier, and an added debuff makes the power more significant for a Level 18 power.

 

*Admittedly, the second change might be a violation of the cottage rule, so it might be very radical actually.

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On 11/21/2020 at 8:27 PM, WindDemon21 said:

You're not using it right. Flash freeze is JUST for the alpha (if needed obviously ie no meat shield, or obviously if you get a second mob etc)

 

Also, if they're slept, the confuse from AA isn't doing anything either unless they're prematurely woken up as well :P.

 

You freeze them first (which that damage is bugging and getting retaliation from it ruining this aspect), then you shiver/debuff from your secondary,  jump in, let AA further slow and confuse them (see you still use it, you just don't ONLY use it. This is where shiver needs that longer duration to keep working when you're in melee since its a cone), then lay an ice slick down and frostbite.

I think you've misunderstood me: I'm well aware that Flash Freeze works as a means of stopping alpha strikes.

 

The point I'm trying to make here is the case for adding damage to Shiver: you said that you preferred not to have damage added to it due to due how it'd wake enemies up from being slept (i.e. via Flash Freeze).

 

I'm suggesting that that's not really an issue, since all you need to do is wade into the crowd with Arctic Air, wait for it to kick in, and then use Shiver - enemies are woken up, but it doesn't matter, since they're confused. As an added bonus, the damage tacked onto Shiver helps with one of Ice Control's pain points: low damage.

On 11/21/2020 at 8:27 PM, WindDemon21 said:

If you're going that route, I guarantee you that only a 50% chance for mag 2 hold nabbing only half of the minions isn't going to help anywhere near enough for an opener. To give it more proc-ability sure, but (obv excluding lockdown proc) a power should not be designed around procs.

 

Again if they want to add it, and it doesn't break the sleep I have zero problems with that, just that it's not worth it if it costs inadequate stats that the power needs.

I originally had Shiver at a 50% Mag 3 Hold, but @Coyote for example wasn't that comfortable with it in their first post in the thread. Similarly, @th0ughtGun was quite on the fence about the idea. Given that feedback, I thought that reducing the magnitude to 2 was a good compromise, providing some level of initially locking down mobs, without bringing it to the level of other powersets. Take a look at their posts - I'd be interested in your thoughts on what they have to say!

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I like the idea of a Freeze mechanism. Be careful to balance all of the damaging options... if Shiver get a potential damage component via procs, and Flash Freeze already does, and we add more damage via ice formations to FF, and also more damage via a Freeze, that may be adding too much damage. All of these are actually good ideas, I just think that it should be design where some get implemented but not all of them together.

 

Regarding Shiver's duration and -Recharge: I don't see any reason to add in more -Recharge. Remember that Frostbite has a 25% -Recharge that is, I believe, stackable. And it's easily stacked twice. Add in 62.5% from Arctic Air, and you floor -Recharge for mobs all around you just by being in the middle of them and using AA and Frostbite. Shiver's debuff is already superfluous except as an alternate means of adding -Recharge... but really, you have enough time to go in with AA if all the mobs are Sleeping, drop Ice Slick and then use Frostbite before mobs shoot even once, so getting a strong -Recharge right at the beginning of the fight is only occasionally useful. The power really needs a different effect so that it's not just a tertiary source of -Recharge. Granted, increasing the duration would make it more convenient to use on Sleeping targets, but I think that it needs a different use... a chance to Hold, or a Shatter mechanism, or something. Probably both, so that you're not stuck into using it only in a specific way for Shatter.

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2 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

I'm suggesting that that's not really an issue, since all you need to do is wade into the crowd with Arctic Air, wait for it to kick in, and then use Shiver - enemies are woken up, but it doesn't matter, since they're confused. As an added bonus, the damage tacked onto Shiver helps with one of Ice Control's pain points: low damage.

Except that shiver is a cone, which would force you to move out of melee to hit the whole mob. The point of giving shiver the longer duration is to freeze, then use shiver, then go in melee with AA and have shiver lasting most of the battle while you're in melee.

 

Adding more damage to ice control great, adding it to shiver, bad.

 

Having your hold chance as long as it doesn't wake enemies, good. Proccing it out for damage, good for you, bad for me, hence I wouldn't proc it, but you can, so win win. (Also adding more slow sets with damage procs, between those and hold damage procs no need for a tiny damage in the power itself, though it would make sense to me if the power itself had some -res in it.

 

1 hour ago, Coyote said:

Regarding Shiver's duration and -Recharge: I don't see any reason to add in more -Recharge.

I don't think anyone suggested adding more -rech. I suggested lowering the recharge of the power itself and increasing the duration. Though if the duration was bumped to 60s, then I think a 30s rech would be fine then.

 

2 hours ago, Blackfeather said:

I originally had Shiver at a 50% Mag 3 Hold, but @Coyote for example wasn't that comfortable with it in their first post in the thread. Similarly, @th0ughtGun was quite on the fence about the idea. Given that feedback, I thought that reducing the magnitude to 2 was a good compromise, providing some level of initially locking down mobs, without bringing it to the level of other powersets. Take a look at their posts - I'd be interested in your thoughts on what they have to say!

Will check back on those after breakfast, it's nom nom time! Lol

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50 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

I don't think anyone suggested adding more -rech. I suggested lowering the recharge of the power itself and increasing the duration. Though if the duration was bumped to 60s, then I think a 30s rech would be fine then.

 

To be honest, leaving aside any other changes and proposals, it does seem that Shiver has a pretty poor duration for its recharge and animation time.

If Mid's is right, Neurotoxic Breath is longer (20 vs 18 seconds), both have a pretty long animation, and NB at least has a chance to Hold as an extra benefit. And to be honest, NB is a pretty weak power also... both should be at least 30 seconds in duration, and IMO that's on the short side.

I wouldn't want to shorten the recharge, as the animation time for both is quite long, and also Ice Control (and Poison) both work better in melee range... so stepping out to proper cone range on a 2.4 or so animation is not something that I would want to do more often.

I don't think 60 seconds is necessary, as 30 seconds should be enough to handle AoE debuffing for a spawn, and after that the amount of targets should be small and handled with single-target attacks... between AA, Frostbite, Chillblain, and BoIce, you floor Recharge without Shiver.

 

My basic argument here is this: WITHOUT Shiver, Ice Control floors Recharge as an AoE, leaving aside single-target powers. Or secondary powers like Lingering Radiation or NB that might get stacked. So primary debuff effect of Shiver is often irrelevant, regardless of duration, duration-recharge ratio, animation, and so on. It really needs something else added to it, otherwise do I really need an inconvenient cone -Recharge power rather than using Frostbite (with weaker -Recharge, but stackable), which also does damage, Containment, maybe summons an Energy Font, and completely prevents movement while still allowing flopping on an Ice Slick? I don't think I do, but if the power adds a Hold component, then all of it sudden it goes from "total skip" to "pretty good even if nothing more than AoE damage". Add some other effect, and it can become a major power. As a -Recharge power, it's just so extremely superfluous.

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On 11/19/2020 at 5:36 AM, Galaxy Brain said:

So, a bit of a side-note to all this but I always wanted Ice Control to have both a "Freeze" and "Shatter" mechanic.

 

Freeze would be a special proc that allows all your -Speed powers to stack up to a chance of either Sleep or full on Hold vs targets as you keep applying powers. Think of it like, each ice control power has a X% chance to proc a mag 1, 5s freeze hold or something similar which when stacked up would encase the foe in ice.

 

Shatter would then be a unique benefit given this common trope:

subfreezefatalitybc.gif

 

Targets encased in ice by either Holds or Sleeps by Ice control (see above too) would not only have a massive amount of -Smashing resistance applied, but if the hold / sleep is broken the ice could Shatter in a small PBAoE to cause damage and slow nearby targets.

 

Basically, Ice would remain the king of building up control and even damage opportunities over time (sort of like a snowball 😉 ), and allow more team interactions to boot.

It's definitely interesting how both our proposals attempt to address similar aspects of Ice Control that are currently somewhat lacking (that is: providing a means of mitigating alpha strikes to some degree, along with additional damage).

 

In my case, it was via providing Shiver with a chance to Hold, and some additional damage, along with further slotting options for other powers. I will say I do like the route you went going about this though, with a chance to Hold depending on the amount of -Speed/-Recharge stacked on an opponent!

 

It's also neat seeing parallels in Shatter to the proposal I made with Flash Freeze (i.e. summon ice formations that enemies break out of if they wake, deal damage to them if prematurely destroyed).

 

Absolutely food for thought, thanks! 😄

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On 11/20/2020 at 12:15 PM, oedipus_tex said:

My proposal is that all AoE Holds would have two varieties:

  • The standard 240 second recharge flavor that exists now
  • A "lite" flavor inspired by Choking Cloud with these stats:
    • 120 recharge
    • 10 second Hold duration (Controller numbers, down from 15 sec)
    • Special: Enemies who take damage have a 50% Chance to break out of the hold for 3 seconds

Players would use Null the Gull to swap between Hold varieties or there could be some other mechanism.

That does sound interesting! I will say that I generally treat the AoE Holds as something that's barely used - emergency buttons for when things are going south to help the team catch their breath. Changing it in this way would probably lend it a good amount of flexibility...would be interested in @SeraphimKensai's thoughts on this proposal, given their post on AoE Holds a while back.

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