So Dark Melee......

[Gobbledigook]

So Dark Melee was released entirely ignoring the feedback that that was given. Why did we even waste our time?

 

Feedback is either being cherry picked or completely ignored.

 

The rest of the update it awesome 😉 but Dark Melee should've been put back again as the feedback was pretty negative to it.

 

Opening a suggestion thread for it would have been better.

[Flask]

Yep

[Parabola]

I can understand the desire to get the issue as a whole out the door. My concern is whether this is the final word on Dark Melee? Will it now fall to the back of the queue for any future work? It has clearly eaten up quite a bit of dev time with these changes and those in the previous page but the prevailing opinion seems to be it needs more work. It would be a reassurance if we could get word that it will get yet another look in the next page.

 

In the meantime I'm trying to hang onto the fact that Shadow Maul has been buffed overall from where it was before the last page. I have got rather used to the current high mob cap but that's the danger of temporary changes...

[Greycat]

2 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

Feedback is either being cherry picked or completely ignored.

Just because you *give* feedback doesn't mean it'll be agreed with or put in, either right away or at all.  That does not mean it's ignored.

 

1 hour ago, parabola said:

My concern is whether this is the final word on Dark Melee? Will it now fall to the back of the queue for any future work?

It's a new patch - a new *issue.* Generally the changes are watched more closely for a while afterward as the general player base gets their hands on it and finds new and interesting ways to break/abuse/fold/spindle/mutilate it. Depending on how the devs feel about it, it may get more changes right away, or in the next "page" or two, or they may be happy with how it fits in the overall idea of how the game works and leave it as is.

[Gobbledigook]

49 minutes ago, Greycat said:

Just because you *give* feedback doesn't mean it'll be agreed with or put in, either right away or at all.  That does not mean it's ignored.

 

It's a new patch - a new *issue.* Generally the changes are watched more closely for a while afterward as the general player base gets their hands on it and finds new and interesting ways to break/abuse/fold/spindle/mutilate it. Depending on how the devs feel about it, it may get more changes right away, or in the next "page" or two, or they may be happy with how it fits in the overall idea of how the game works and leave it as is.

Yes I suppose. But that is cherry picking. 

 

One post will have 5 votes and another had one, they choose to go with the one with one vote. 

 

Multiple people have left feedback and asked for something different. We didn't even get a chance to try something a little different. No response given. That is Ignored.

 

I for one won't bother with feedback after this, it is pointless.

 

It is ok though as EM is awesome and i will be playing that and not DM 🙂

Edited November 21, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[CrudeVileTerror]

The feedback process is very difficult and confusing when it's a one-way street.

The Devs say that they read all the feedback and posts.  Ok.

Though without engagement, it's a bit hard to grasp that as true sometimes.

And when a particular change seems to be moving forward despite protests, it becomes especially difficult and confusing.

 

For example; the changes to the /enterbase had a pretty good demonstration of the Devs listening to the feedback.

From what I could see (and, acknowledging a very limited point of view that I have), the changes to Touch of Fear did -not- seem to have much communication in regard to the feedback.

 

As ever, the Devs are human.  They're volunteers.  They have limited time.

It would just be more helpful to know what their intentions are to provide meaningful feedback.

So I completely understand why players are rather upset with the Touch of Fear changes right now.

[Greycat]

As I've said elsewhere. Development is not, and should not be, a democracy. 

 

Just because they don't give a response doesn't mean they don't pay attention to your feedback. (Small, volunteer team, putting out a fairly big update, after all.) Just because they didn't go and change things with the "most popular" option doesn't mean the feedback was useless. "Most popular" doesn't necessarily mean "right" (or "fits with whatever internal overall plan they have," or "is something they can do.")

[CrudeVileTerror]

I've never understood why people seem to think that communication is democracy.

 

I've never asked for a democratic process.

 

I've advocated for transparency.

[Force Redux]

Wait... Did the Issue drop today??

[Greycat]

2 minutes ago, Force Redux said:

Wait... Did the Issue drop today??

No. Latest release candidate. (In other words, "not done yet, but close to release.")

[CrudeVileTerror]

No.   It just hit Release Candidate 2, though, and the messages from Jimmy in the Beta forum seem to imply that they're largely done with feedback, and just looking for a little more bug-tracking.

[Force Redux]

Ok, ty guys. Was excited there for a moment ...

Except for DM...

Edited November 21, 2020 by Force Redux

[CrudeVileTerror]

If the current pattern holds true, the Live Patch is likely to hit in one or two weeks.  Barring a disaster of some sort, that's my prediction, at least.

[Gobbledigook]

40 minutes ago, Greycat said:

As I've said elsewhere. Development is not, and should not be, a democracy. 

 

Just because they don't give a response doesn't mean they don't pay attention to your feedback. (Small, volunteer team, putting out a fairly big update, after all.) Just because they didn't go and change things with the "most popular" option doesn't mean the feedback was useless. "Most popular" doesn't necessarily mean "right" (or "fits with whatever internal overall plan they have," or "is something they can do.")

But it was proven to be wrong.

 

Of course they can do what they want, whether right or wrong. Ill just choose to leave DM as it pales in comparison to EM.

 

And i am grateful to the developers for all their work. I just wished they had responded more with DM. MA was pulled due to feedback.

Edited November 21, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[Myrmidon]

Ah, the eight VileTerrors are confused and need clarification. Very well.

 

On 10/24, the Artificial Intelligence known as Bopper created a Discord channel for testing purposes. Since that time, those of us that joined said testing have had constant interaction with the Dev team, which has (in turn) allowed for an advanced speed of test to live release (Soon).

 

As far as the Dark Melee change is concerned, I can’t wait for it to go live so that I can make use of Touch of Fear (which, prior to this update, was once a complete waste of a power slot) on all of my practitioners of this set.
 

 

[Bopper]

9 hours ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

If the current pattern holds true, the Live Patch is likely to hit in one or two weeks.  Barring a disaster of some sort, that's my prediction, at least.

My prediction is 2-3 days. Barring a disaster, you'll be playing Issue 27 on Homecoming before Thanksgiving.

[Gobbledigook]

8 hours ago, Myrmidon said:

https://discord.gg/DptUBzh

 

If you want “transparency”, here it is. 

A secret club? lol. First time i have seen this. I don't and won't use discord anymore so it is no good to me. How many other secret liasons exist with the developers?

 

So the feedback thread was a waste of time as others were giving feedback elsewhere that took priority it seems. That is why the thread had so little response.

 

ToF with it's low damage and small radius that is buffed by Soul Drain that is not available until level 28 for some, which is to be mostly discarded at 35 and is not really an improvement on the Shadow maul we had on live.

 

And that is why it is pointless giving feedback.

 

Obviously not so Transparent then. Lol Gold Standard testers....so what are the rest of us? just peasants probably lol. Nearly 35k CoH with over 7k online members and just 103 members of this little GSt club with 45 online at this time. Definitely not transparent.

Edited November 22, 2020 by Gobbledegook

[Ruin Mage]

Firstly, Bopper made a thread about the Discord. It was there for people to see.

Secondly, transparency is a joke - we're not exactly entitled to anything nor do we deserve to know what's going on. We may be the population, but we're not exactly the ones working at the code to get things to work. They have a game plan, we have a game to play, and somewhere in the middle they do somewhat adjust but not hardcore. It has always been my stance that development should be a majority of their game plan, but room for adjustments based off of feedback from the community. Sometimes they have bigger plans in the future for changes, and can only afford to put so much in one patch. Sometimes, they have to cut it back and go back to the drawing board. They did this with the Eagle's Claw (I think that was the MA power) this patch and they did it with Dark Consumption a while back.

They're trying new things, new ideas, and they have goals in mind. We saw this with the End Game/Balance thread, but they aren't exactly going to sit down and lay out everything for us. They don't have or need to. Anyone asking for them to is trying to be an armchair developer at this point, or thinks we need more say in development - which neither are healthy for short and long term. Yes, it sucks that they narrowed down feedback, but they got where they wanted with the Issue 27 (Page 1) update and are trying to wrap it up before Christmas at the least. It's not like they're saying "no more feedback ever", but they clearly have a plan in mind for what they want to ship and when. It's hardly unfair to claim that feedback was a waste of time - some things are just minor compared to the meatier aspects of a patch.

Chill.

[Myrmidon]

There is nothing secret about something that has been open to everyone since Testing began. 😉

 

 

You guys kill me with your conspiracy theories.🤣 Perhaps if you spent more time testing the actual bugs instead of in threads like this, I27 would already be live.🤣🤣🤣

[Myrmidon]

25 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Hardly a secret. I promoted it first day of Beta release and a few times after that. I also promoted it numerous times on Homecoming's discord. It grew larger than I imagined, but it has proven to be fairly effective. The folks did an excellent job testing for bugs and performance, and I am very appreciative of their hard work.

 

The title actually comes from an inside joke that I carried over from closed beta. But, the only thing worse than having to explain a joke is to explain a joke where "you had to be there" (but if you have to know, it came from a comment about coloring fiery auras gold). So, the name is what it is. It has nothing to do to with arrogance. 

Just to be clear, this particular AI has not yet learned the human trait of lying.

[RubyRed]

I'm always skeptical when people say they want "transparency." More often than not, what they want is the devs to give some sort of detailed proof of every change so that they can give "feedback" in the form of dissecting any decision to an absurd degree and browbeat the devs into changing their mind.

 

This is precisely why most feedback processes like this tend to be one-way... no human being wants to spend the equivalent of defending a college thesis on a video game, especially not to a group of multiple players that have an agenda and an order of magnitude more time to write up lengthy forum posts.

[ScarySai]

The great one will be hearing about this heresy on the next blood moon.

 

Remember to bring your goat bones, everyone.

[ThrillMill]

I'm sorry for being ignorant. Did they Nerf Shadow Maul after extending its Arc?  

[CrudeVileTerror]

I'd say it's probably a fair assessment in some cases, up to the point of browbeating, @RubyRed.

People browbeat while having totally uninformed points of view just as much, if not more.

 

My personal view, which I can't attribute to anyone else, is the dissection of decisions is meant in good faith.  An effort to expose misconceptions and biases which would be otherwise invisible.   Ultimately what people do with that information is still in the hands of whoever has the power and authority regardless.  Hence why it's not a democracy, as so many people have suggested over time.

 

As a recent example of what I like to see is what Faultline posted in the Beta Transit Feedback thread here in the forums recently as part of a discussion point that slid in to off-topic territory.  As GM ColdSpark recently mentioned in the latest Weekly Discussion, we might be getting to see Faultline and/or the Devs' views on said topic expanded for a future week's thread.

Faultline admitted the view expressed in the feedback thread was simplified, but already it highlights the perspective which is being operated under.  Having that out in the open offers the rest of the community the opportunity to address where that perspective may be too narrow and a limiting factor preventing other solutions from being given due consideration.

I see that openness as a very good thing.

 

 

 

The use of discord is an entirely different bag of snakes.  I suspect the unpopular nature of my point of view on feedback has already put me on thin ice, if not already under the frozen lake, in the eyes of some members of the community here . . . so I won't be getting up on a soapbox for that particular topic right now.  But I would at least like to encourage everyone to consider the practical value which these forums offer as a direct solution to communication.  They're incredibly robust and have a LOT to offer in terms of convenience and reaching other players, and without the spectre of third-party.  The Clubs feature is particularly underutilized.

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by CrudeVileTerror
Changed "Teleport" to "Transit" to attempt to reduce confusion.

[Troo]

19 hours ago, Greycat said:

21 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

Feedback is either being cherry picked or completely ignored.

Just because you *give* feedback doesn't mean it'll be agreed with or put in, either right away or at all.  That does not mean it's ignored.

@Greycat That's pretty much the definition of being ignored.

 

Is there some conspiracy, no. That's just silly.

HC team = volunteers, a small team trying to do a good job, no one is trying to wreck anything, they aren't perfect.¹

 

That said, there is confusion about when and how to participate in the process.

 

Waiting until after design changes have been made and privately tested for months AND THEN asking for feedback is misleading.

Someone mentioned how much less controversial the Titan Weapons changes had been compared with some of the others.. This begs the question of why?

 

Transparency pops of from time to time as a question or comment. On that topic I have always sided with the HC Team as I have again in this post ( see ¹ ). That said, maybe there is something to hear.

 

yep.. @Bopper fyi, the first I heard of this was Tuesday. Just didn't see the post.

 

Also, there is no mention of using Discord in the Beta Focused Feedback threads. None.

 

22 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

So Dark Melee was released entirely ignoring the feedback that that was given. Why did we even waste our time?

Feedback is either being cherry picked or completely ignored.

It has become apparent that's not the type of feedback they were looking for.