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Gobbledegook

So Dark Melee......

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27 minutes ago, Troo said:

Also, there is no mention of using Discord in the Beta Focused Feedback threads. None

There doesn't have to be. Homecoming has always used both the Forums and Discord. Anyone who follows the Weekly Discussion thread knows that. People don't have to use the discord that I set up. The forums are already there. The devs read every single post. So all words are seen.

 

The purpose of my discord was to make it easier for testers to collaborate. When something needed testing, you quickly might get 4 or 5 people to hop on to test it. If you wanted to make a team to bug test the new arcs, you could quickly coordinate that. You can do these things on the Forums too, but I think it was easier to do on discord. It also allowed me to organize everything that I had to offer testers. When a new beta patch dropped, I provided updated JSON power files (thank you RubyRed). I was also able to update with my Homecoming of Data tool to provide quick to find details of each powers damage, DPA, etc. I also was able to write up testing to-do lists to streamline finding bugs or verifying bug fixes. Yesterday I did that on the forums and got crickets. So doing it on discord was more fruitful for me.

 

35 minutes ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

The use of discord is an entirely different bag of snakes

Why? Homecoming has always used discord. What is different now as opposed to 18+ months ago when Homecoming became public? HC has always been open to using both forums and discord as an avenue for discussion with the community. Some community members prefer one over the other. Taking one away would be a slap to the face of those members, as it would be taking away their voice.

 

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1 minute ago, Bopper said:

Homecoming has always used both the Forums and Discord. Anyone who follows the Weekly Discussion thread knows that.

While that might seem obvious to some, it is not the case for many, and how would someone new know?

 

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4 minutes ago, Troo said:

While that might seem obvious to some, it is not the case for many, and how would someone new know?

 

Does it matter if they know or not? If you found either Discord or the Forums, you have a voice to the developers. But if folks didn't know, ill happily point to the front page of the forums with the links to their Discord

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To sort of echo Replacement, giving feedback on the discord would be farting in the wind a bit. Feedback is much more useful on the forums.

 

It's been mostly useful for coordinating testing and just double-checking each others' findings. I think the PvP guys got a lot of mileage out of it.

 

 

And for breaking Sai's kneecaps.

 

 

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22 hours ago, Gobbledegook said:

So Dark Melee was released entirely ignoring the feedback that that was given. Why did we even waste our time?

 

Feedback is either being cherry picked or completely ignored.

 

The rest of the update it awesome 😉 but Dark Melee should've been put back again as the feedback was pretty negative to it.

 

Opening a suggestion thread for it would have been better.

You know what a good example of cherry picking looks like?

 

Ignoring Dev explanations of DM's razor's edge balance, due entirely to Soul Drain.  Ignoring their point of making a decent aoe to last you until Epic powers and not necessarily to be used in addition to them.

 

Basically, reading any of their posts saying "I hear and disagree" and instead asserting... "Feedback is either being cherry picked or completely ignored."

Edited by Replacement
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3 minutes ago, Nuke Leah said:

The responses from this gold-standard group are intensely unwelcoming, so I don't suspect you'll get too many interlopers.

I think it's just irritation from a publicly known Discord being touted as a secret or what have you. People are painting the Discord in a wrong light for...no good reason. So I can't blame them for getting a bit snarky.


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1 minute ago, Bopper said:

Does it matter if they know or not?

Yes.

 

It's natural for folks to think:

"Look, others are agreeing with me."

"Why are decision makers not listen to us?"

"Oh there is another channel?"

"That must be what the decision makers are listening to.."

 

Bopper, you have the best intentions. No one should think otherwise. I am merely answering the question and explaining.

 

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@Bopper:  Nothing has changed regarding the problematic nature of discord in the past 18+ months.  My point is that the problems with discord are two-fold:  Third-party software with a T.o.U. which should be triggering the spidey senses of Homecoming's lawyer, and the nature of -any- splinter in communication channels.

The former point is cut-and-dry, from my perspective.

The latter, I accept, is a prickly one.  Reaching as many voices as possible is a good thing.  But it's a double-edged blade, in that it also places more burden on ensuring that communication is matched in all venues where discussions are taking place.  It's the same issue we had when GM Miss revealed that there had been weekly discussions taking place on discord for months before the forums were ever informed of it.

And, again; yes!  They're volunteers.  They don't have all the time in the world.  Hell, even if they were -paid,- they still wouldn't!

But there is DEFINITELY a disconnect when it comes to communication going on.   One that many people are trying to address.

That barrier is what is at the foundation of so many of the complaints that are being levelled in this process.

 

It's why I would honestly prefer we reduce speed in terms of development for a while and focus -on- communication.

It's the groundwork that can lead to a more substantial and long-last foundation.

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1 minute ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

 My point is that the problems with discord are two-fold:  Third-party software with a T.o.U. which should be triggering the spidey senses of Homecoming's lawyer, and the nature of -any- splinter in communication channels.

The former point is cut-and-dry, from my perspective.

That's getting incredibly tinfoil hat with regards to Discord. There's nothing about Discord's TOU that makes it inherently unsuitable as a place for gathering feedback. (No problems at all? Maybe not, but they'd be extremely corner case.) If you personally don't want to use Discord for whatever reason, that's fine. You have the option of sticking to the forums, and your feedback isn't somehow lessened because of it.

 

Most games that have an active audience specifically use multiple channels -- forums, Reddit, social media, Discord, you name it -- for precisely the reason that most people will gravitate toward one or the other, and a few players will straddle multiple. You want to give people the least friction for giving feedback and to have the most possible chances to see sentiment on the game. Funnelling everyone to a single channel actually reduces engagement. It's pretty evident even in this small community, as you can see the chatter and tone on Homecoming's Discord tends to be different from what's being discussed on the forums. That said, there tend to be "official" channels - like the HC forums and discord - where the devs are most likely to respond, just so people don't have to go hunting things down.

 

As Bopper was trying to say, multiple channels give you choice. It's not like one or the other is getting preferential treatment.

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1 hour ago, Bopper said:

Hardly a secret. I promoted it first day of Beta release and a few times after that. I also promoted it numerous times on Homecoming's discord. It grew larger than I imagined, but it has proven to be fairly effective. The folks did an excellent job testing for bugs and performance, and I am very appreciative of their hard work.

 

The title actually comes from an inside joke that I carried over from closed beta. But, the only thing worse than having to explain a joke is to explain a joke where "you had to be there" (but if you have to know, it came from a comment about coloring fiery auras gold). So, the name is what it is. It has nothing to do to with arrogance. 

Hardly common knowledge either, it's not exactly overflowing with members. It didn't need to exist as there was a thread already for it. I feel your group were listened to more than the feedback thread that existed due to lack of any response and alternative builds to test. 

 

Yes fair enough but it isn't how it looks lol. Comes across as very elitist. Just saying. What i do find funny is the response this has caused and the "club" members coming out of the woodwork to defend it 😛

 

Transparency weren't actually my words by the way.

 

I am not really worried guys, it is what it is. It isn't good. But if you are happy with it i guess that is what matters. I will be consoled with EM 🙂

 

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Sorry, I appear to have been unclear.

Yes, the multiple channels offer more opportunities for people to be heard.  I don't dispute that in the slightest.  I think that more voices and more opportunities to provide feedback is a good thing.

My concern is when a Dev sends a message like:

image.png.51ae568cee00e31603ff82f1a4f44862.png

in -one- venue, while leaving the other(s) in the dark.

 

Feedback without communication is ultimately pretty self-defeating.

I would like to see the Devs take some time to re-examine their methods and establish some new best practices for improved communication.

That's what I'm trying to encourage when I say that I want greater transparency.

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I think if your standard is going to be "devs must crosspost every conversation everywhere" you're just going to encourage them to participate in discussion less, not more. You're setting the bar for "transparency" incredibly high. You keep posting that screenshot but honestly that conversation is minutiae that isn't really relevant for general feedback regarding patch updates.

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Again, I seem to have poorly articulated my idea.  I'm sorry for that.

But seeing your reply gives me the opportunity to address it, so thank you for that, @RubyRed.

 

What I'm proposing isn't cross-posting everything everywhere.   You're right; of course that's ridiculous.

I'm asking for them to sit down and take the time to address these things on a fundamental level in advance.  

You're right, that particular image (the first time I posted it, by the way) demonstrates something of a bit of minutia.

So let's go up a few levels in the process and address the underlying principles and philosophies where we can do some optimal good while minimizing the time investment the Devs need to give.

 

As I stated previously ( https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/24273-so-dark-melee/?tab=comments#comment-295591 ), the message which Faultline posted in the Transit Feedback thread was really revealing.

That's what I want to see more of.

That's the way we can have the most positive impact with the least amount of busywork.  At least, as near as I can see.   Maybe there's an even MORE optimal course of action I've not been exposed to yet.

And that's the reasoning I have for improved two-way communication.

 

Edited by CrudeVileTerror
Seems a few posts got evaporated, and we've moved back to the same page. Adjusted reference point accordingly. - FURTHER evaporation has occurred. Adjusting phrasing again.

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29 minutes ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

It's why I would honestly prefer we reduce speed in terms of development for a while and focus -on- communication.

It's the groundwork that can lead to a more substantial and long-last foundation.

The first patch containing changes which would become part of Issue 27 went into closed beta testing in June of this year - if this goes live this month it'll be a nearly five-month beta cycle. For the sake of comparison, most Cryptic/Paragon-released issues had a cycle of about two months between closed beta and live, and sometimes even more like six weeks. The only real exception to this was Issue 18 which was basically an entirely new game and had a six-month beta cycle. The communication aspect of things confuses me - the development team has been pretty open about what they're trying to accomplish and their logic behind making some of these changes. Yes, there are multiple avenues for communicating but obviously feedback is best left to the forums while just-in-time testing is best handled via more immediate feedback options like the various Discord servers.

 

At any rate, larger and less-frequent patches are not good for player retention, as Homecoming numbers have seen. Player numbers tend to tick up right around the time a new patch is released and then drop off again a few months later.

 

EDIT: I see you're also asking for a bit of dev communication or justification in advance, and for that I would kindly point you to the game balance/endgame thread which basically turned into an immediate and raging dumpster fire. There's a reason dev teams don't really do those sorts of things. This is why release cycles tend to follow dev server -> closed beta -> open beta -> release schedules. It's far easier to get feedback from a smaller, focused group of people and not have said feedback drowned out.

Edited by macskull
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I think it’s important to understand that just because feedback is posted does not mean that it will or even should be implemented. The devs did look at all feedback. They also posted responses showing that they at least considered feedback. 
 

I also didn’t like the dark melee changes. I stated my concerns and left it to the devs to decide if they agree.  Someone times the devs will agree with feedback and sometimes they won’t. It does not however mean they are ignoring feedback. 
 

I also don’t understand why the discord testing group is getting hate. They put in a lot of effort in testing the changes and finding bugs. We should be grateful that groups like that exist honestly. 

Edited by Saikochoro
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7 minutes ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

You're right, that particular image (the first time I posted it, by the way

I apologize. For some reason thought you posted it both times but the first time was someone else, you're right.

 

7 minutes ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

As I stated at the top of this page, the message which Faultline posted in the Transit Feedback thread was really revealing.

This is probably the best kind of feedback -- specific example of what you're looking for. Just calling for transparency can mean too many things to different people.

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9 minutes ago, Bopper said:

100 or so folks have joined since I made it public on October 24th. Thats pretty good, since I thought I would only get about 25 other testers willing to collaborate with me. Shoot, I didnt even think there were 100 people beta testing.

 

I don't know what your expectations are though...should I have thousands of members in the discord for our work to be legitimate? I'm personally proud of all the testers who helped find bugs and provide constructive feedback from their testing.

 

I'm sorry Touch of Fear didn't get tweaked enough, though. 

No there should not be 2 threads on the same matter. One main official thread and one behind the scenes thread pulling the strings. My feedback did not count as I feel the official thread was overlooked in favor of the other one. Not even a developer could convince me otherwise.

 

If governments were run that way......oh wait a sec.

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1 hour ago, Bopper said:

I'm sorry if my responses are unwelcoming, but I'm not exactly here to recruit. I'm just here to clarify misunderstandings of what we've been doing. For folks who are interested, the Discord will remain open beyond the release of Issue 27. When information about page 2 is available, I will update the discord.

It would have been nice if the discord link were posted in the official beta update page 1.  Even sending a link or posting the link to those leaving feedback.

Edited by Gobbledegook

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1 minute ago, macskull said:

This would imply one method of communication was being prioritized over the others, which is not what is happening.

How do I know that?

 

Events say otherwise.

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Signal-to-noise ratio is definitely a concern, and quite a valid issue to bring up, @macskull.

As is the hostility and toxicity of certain people in these/those kinds of discussions.

 

There are ways to address those, though.

Clearly marked expectations of conduct (which we mostly have), with positive reinforcement of helpful behaviour and prompt reactions to negative behaviour can promote dramatic improvements.

Again, yes, the time investment is a significant limiting factor, but that could be addressed with greater delegation of responsibility and training.  Having an internal process for recruitment would help with that, I think, rather than having to access outside software.

 

I know that people get passionate, and people can feel quite a lot of personal attachment to this game.  Hell, I know I feel that way, at the very least!

But I think we can push for initiatives as a community to help mitigate the time and stress costs bad actors impose on the Homecoming Team and the Devs.

Like I've said, it's a two-way street.   Part of that is for greater responsibility and a higher standard of conduct from us.

I would like to think we'd be capable of it, with a little help.

 

I suppose I'm an optimist in that regard.  Or maybe I'm just too stubborn for cynicism and pessimism.

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1 minute ago, Gobbledegook said:

It would have been nice if the discord link were posted in the official beta update page 1. 

My discord is not official. It was my pet project to try to help streamline beta testing by opening up improved collaboration tools. My link was posted in my post. It was also posted on various channels of the official HC Discord when I was recruiting. I'm sorry you missed my post. I bumped it a few times the first week of beta testing. Perhaps you joined beta testing only recently. I can't say. Hopefully missing out on seeing it did not prevent you from being able to test on Beta and provide feedback on the forums.



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27 minutes ago, RubyRed said:

I think if your standard is going to be "devs must crosspost every conversation everywhere" you're just going to encourage them to participate in discussion less, not more. You're setting the bar for "transparency" incredibly high. You keep posting that screenshot but honestly that conversation is minutiae that isn't really relevant for general feedback regarding patch updates.

Okay, that enough for me. RubyRed I actually agree with some of what you are saying. Too many cooks in the kitchen to early is a problem.

That said, I am going to have to call bs on the if/then straw-man arguments. Folks asking for transparency could be looking for just a better general understanding & communication.

 

19 minutes ago, macskull said:

This is why release cycles tend to follow dev server -> closed beta -> open beta -> release schedules.

The timeline of the above mixed with recent Weekly Discussions, Focus Feedback, general suggestions.. It just doesn't jive. I am giving credit for some inadvertent items not being intentional.

 

I don't feel this thread is the right place, but I am willing to have an open discussion elsewhere.

Edited by Troo

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Just now, Bopper said:

My discord is not official. It was my pet project to try to help streamline beta testing by opening up improved collaboration tools. My link was posted in my post. It was also posted on various channels of the official HC Discord when I was recruiting. I'm sorry you missed my post. I bumped it a few times the first week of beta testing. Perhaps you joined beta testing only recently. I can't say. Hopefully missing out on seeing it did not prevent you from being able to test on Beta and provide feedback on the forums.

 From very early. If you had used the official channels more you would know this.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Troo said:

Folks asking for transparency could be looking for just a better general understanding & communication.

Could be, but other than Vile's example with Faultline, I haven't seen people asking for transparency specifying what that means except in broad strokes. So, yes, I responded to vagueness with vagueness.

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