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Weekly Discussion 78: Incarnate Powers - a review of ultimate power!


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While I enjoy some of the Incarnate crafting (Hybrid, Alpha, and somewhat Destiny) I would be happy if the incarnate system going forward (if there are plans to move it forward) would simply allow us to craft more slots for our existing powers. 

Two Tier system moving forward with first tier opening up one additional slot and Tier 2 opening up 2 additional slots. Each new Incarnate slot would then apply only to Main, Secondary, Pools, Main, Secondary, Pools. . .

The last thing my heroes (or villians) need is more powers. . . Instead some of them would like to be able to slot a few more powers with 6 slots - or even the game breaking 7th or 8th slot!

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2 hours ago, Blastit said:

If incarnate powers are changed so that you can no longer steamroll 45-50 at +4, just play on a lower difficulty setting.

 

2 hours ago, Kazuuk said:

If you don't like incarnate powers, just play the vast majority of the games content which occurs 1-49.

 

While I certainly enjoy having my non-DPS AT toss Judgements every two minutes in Unai Kemen missions; it would be nice to be able to run lvl 45+ (and other 'scalable to 50') content without having access to the Incarnate powers. I'm not asking for a nerf, just the ability to select it at a challenge mode in Orobouros. Supposedly unslotting Incarnates is an option, but TBH I have trouble remembering to rescale mission difficulties, and the incarnate power change cooldowns just frustrate me as well!

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  • What you like
    • Alpha is balanced
    • Interface is fine, but it's very hard to notice it working
    • Hybrid is fine
    • All these are fine because they only effect the user
  • What don't you like
    • Judgement and destiny are OP in groups given current content. Ion is particularly OP, though I prefer Vorpal because of the quick cast.
  • The crafting system
    • Clunky but it's not used enough to be worth improving
  • Where you'd like to see them go
    • They could stay as is, if there are was more optional tougher content
    • Or make Judgement and destiny have some kind of charging system. Like Domination.
    • I suggest moving forward that AV/EBs in Incarnate trials be given slightly weaken versions of player incarnate powers.
      • Imagine the fun of an AV with judgement
      • Destiny powers like Clarion could not be allowed or full strength barrier. This points out how OP these powers are.
    • Have an option to turn off Incarnate powers for itrails or high level TFs in exchange for more exp/inf/threads/badges

 

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I'd like to see more Judgement options to fit more character types. Maybe an orbital strike or missile barrage for more tech-oriented characters.

 

I wouldn't be opposed to seeing the Incarnate system finished off if there was more content added to service it. I think the next T4 Genesis was outlined by a GM after the game shut down in one of the Loregasms (placed AoE buff/debuff areas IIRC). If people have any good ideas for the rest (Mind, Vitae and Omega) I'd be open to them - though the number of "active" powers is starting to get ridiculous - wouldn't mind of one or more of them were passive/auto like the Alpha and Interface slots.

 

As for further Incarnate content - while a huge full league slobberknocker would be cool (vs Batallion maybe - sometime down the road? With multiple objectives for the huge team to accomplish so they would have to split up), I think some single-team 8-man Incarnate TFs/Trials would be good as well. I mean with the ability to craft multiple powers for the same slot (especially Destiny) and switch Incarnate powers in and out as needed, even an 8-man team could be prepared for any eventuality. Especially if the last 4 slots are finished off.

Edited by OmegaOne
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What you like:

I love the feeling of "going beyond lvl 50", and the extra bells and whistles you can bolt onto a character, extending the time you spend "growing" each character. I like the power and the performance you can reach. And even for an unfinished system, there is a whole lot of stuff to look ant and consider using.


What don't you like:

Mostly that they system is unfinished and that that the content designed to designed to challenge Incarnate characters is still limited. However, I understand why things are the way they are, and hope that the Homecoming team can find ways to expand Incarnate level content.


Balance of the sets:

This is tricky because I have not played every single option. I'll just say that when I look at Interface Slot Abilities in the wiki, it's hard to get excited about a 2% chance for confuse when I could get a 75% chance for a damage DoT. I'm sure that there's a use for every power, but not all of them grab me.


The crafting system:

I figured it out, but it would be nice for it to be more accessible. The fact that you earn materials by gaining Veteran levels (to 99 that is) softens the blow if you craft something that you end up not using. If Incarnate material gains were to become throttled, then I would want the crafting and power info systems to be made more streamlined and robust to make help ensure that players didn't make an irrevocable mistake.


Where you'd like to see them go:

Until there was content ready to support it, I wouldn't want to see Incarnate powers "go" anywhere 🙂. What we have is great, and the unreleased (uncreated?) slots would only complicate things further unless there was a specific time and place where you could use them. Ideally, Genesis, Vitae, Mind, and Omega slots would be released individually with a League sized and maybe a Team sized activity designed with the new slots in mind.

 

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34 minutes ago, OmegaOne said:

I wouldn't be opposed to seeing the Incarnate system finished off if there was more content added to service it. I think the next T4 Genesis was outlined by a GM after the game shut down in one of the Loregasms (placed AoE buff/debuff areas IIRC). If people have any good ideas for the rest (Mind, Vitae and Omega) I'd be open to them - though the number of "active" powers is starting to get ridiculous - wouldn't mind of one or more of them were passive/auto like the Alpha and Interface slots.

 

Yep! A cool idea but definitely one that will need to introduced with a lot of time and care.

Quote

What were the next few incarnate slots going to be?

JAH: Genesis was coming next, and the basic concept for the slot was creating “patches” or fields that buffed allies and debuffed foes. The Core branches of Genesis powers would get larger areas of effect, while the Radius branches would let you make up to 4 small patches at once at the very rare level. Imagine Sleet or Tar Patch + Accelerate Metabolism or Regeneration Aura + Incarnate-worthy, and you’re on the right track.

For some of the other ones (Mind, Vitae, Omega) it seemed like they were just making stuff up as they were being Asked Anything:

Quote

Q) What was going to be the plan for the final incarnate powers and trials? (@Sarrona)
A) There was no “final”, once Omega slot was reached that would be the new “Alpha” slot and 10 more Incarnate levels would appear above it. Getting the first 10 Incarnate powers would have been trivialized so the “new grind” would be the Omega-base tree. And then there was a tree after that, and one after that, etc. (Matt)

or just really ridiculous:

Quote

Q.) Do you have any insight as to what the Omega Incarnate Slot might be? The others seemed badass enough already. PBAoE kill everything?
A.) Jeff Hamilton would know. I don’t remember if this was Omega or not, but I know one of the latter tiers did allow you to nuke minions through your magnificence. There were also abilities that let you trade off one stat for another. (Hosun)
A) I’ve said this in a couple places but the primary trees which had been sketched out on paper were Arete (instant recharge on all powers for a period), Majesty (cause foes to instantly fight for you and then self-destruct), Infinity (summon doppelgangers of yourself), Transcendence (immune to everything and can attack into Phase), and Fulfillment (major PBAOE +Level Shifts) (Tim)

Although Infinity does sound like basically what I want out of Lore lol

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In general, I'm fine with the iPowers as they are...

 

The crafting system isn't the most intuitive thing in the world, but with a little poking around there are guides that make it easier to deal with for newbies to the system.

 

Adding the missing powers? Eh. I know it would give the OMGPowerCreep!-crowd absolute fits... not to mention ticking off the people who are already convinced that our existing iPowers "ruined the game". All that might be more drama than the project is worth.

 

Personally... If I were going to do anything with the powers, I would focus on adding some of the missing Lore options. Syndicate, for instance. Freakshow. Circle Magi as a counterpoint to the Demons we already have. Devouring Earth. PPD.... That kind of thing.

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I think they would be cooler if they were tiered in a way one might rank super heroes / villains from different settings. I.e. You have all the incarnate slots you're the equiv. to Thanos and fight beings on that level, if you have one you're fighting the level of like Ghost Widow or the Hero equiv.

 

Things of that nature, but it would require us to really expand the settings and universe to play our characters in, which in that regard our current level set is probably too accelerated for what we're currently fighting. Though I still would really like to see it continued regardless. I would think it wise that the 'coming storm' would not be the end all be all of our incarnates if anything I'd rather them be where we're currently situated at in regards to power-level.

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My two cents -

 

1. My biggest pet peeve, is how all the recharge pets from Crabber mind, Controller, etc etc do not benifit from Supports "double bonus for pets", making it expressly unique to masterminds. Wish this feature worked on all pets. Honestly, I wish there were more pet focused incarnate abilites in general, as nearly all pet classes start to fall behind in incarnate content. And your choices of helping them are barrier OR healing. Sort of a rock and a hard place situation. And on top of that, thats assuming you are willing to give up ageless, which many builds require to have a flowing playstyle.

 

2. Some choices feel obligatory, which makes an illusion that there is any real choice. I can bet that 95% of people use either Agility, Cardio, or Musculature, regardless of build/at. Similar with the degenerative and reactive interface choices.

 

3. How threads were bound. I have several characters staring at 1000+ threads and no use for them whatsoever. I cant even burn them for things like unslotters. I am not expecting them to be turned into merits, but "some" use for them would be nice.

 

Suggested fixes -

 

1. Make Support apply to all pet types, or even have more incarnates apply to pets wholesale.

 

2. Either streamline the "best picks" in each incarnate slot, or make them all more equal. Because to me there are many "junk" incarnates.

 

3. For threads, make them either account bound, or make a merchant with uses for them. Even buying like, nukes or IOs with them would be welcome. Having no use for them whatsoever #feelsbadman.

 

Just my two cents!

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13 minutes ago, Neiska said:

My two cents -

 

3. For threads, make them either account bound, or make a merchant with uses for them. Even buying like, nukes or IOs with them would be welcome. Having no use for them whatsoever #feelsbadman.

 

Just my two cents!

 

Luna in ouro sells Super Insps for threads. You can sell those on AH for inf.

😃

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How do people feel about being able to access Incarnate powers down to level 45?  I'm mixed about this.  Some of the time, like if I'm solo, I like it and they keep me alive (depending on the notoriety levels), and some of the time I hate it, mainly in teams, because even at a tough notoriety 45+ material was never designed to stand against an Incarnate PC.

 

I don't see an immediate solution that wouldn't rack off at least a fair amount of people, no matter which way you leaned, UNLESS, taking a cue from above, like the Kheldian identifiers, an instance could generate Incarnate NPCs to deal with the Incarnate PC.  Then again if I'm the ONLY Incarnate and have exemped to play with level 40s then that, unlike the Kheldian issue where their nemesis really only affects them, could wipe a team out. 

 

 

Edited by Darmian
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In response to the addtion of incarnate abilities, especially in regards to older level 50 content, rather than toning down incarnate abilities, I'd like to see more tiers of difficulty added to the game. Specifically tiers that are not directly tied to higher level enemies or the purple patch. While i think we should get the option to fight level 55s, one higher than the current cap on enemies, that is mostly just to counter the current level shift applied by the alpha slot. Alternatively remove the level shift from alpha slot for normal content. That would be the only thing I'd take away from the current array of power creep, and I'd love to see more options within each category of incarnate powers, and the later tiers of incarnate power opened up for unlocking.

 

Now with an additional tier of difficulties, I think it could be quite easy to implement. 2 sets of 4 options that are applied as buffs to all critters. One set being 20%, 40%, 60%, and 80% damage resistance, in addition to any passive resistance the critters already have, capped at 90%. Combat would last longer, give more time for the enemy group to actually do their thing, give more time for buff/debuff/control archetypes to do their thing, and more time to actually work as a team. The second would be a damage buff to critters, set seperately from the above damage resistance setting for 50%, 100%, 200%, and 400% damage buff to critters, where the goal again would be to make combat more dangerous, increase the value of buffing, control, and smacking down the enemies down hard and fast. A 3rd or 4th challenge setting could be added to give enemies a +special (powerboost) effect so that their debuffs and controls would be more significant, and the other setting could be a minor mez protection toggle, like mag 3. Each of those two challenge settings would have 1 tier each rather than 4, totalling 10 additional levels of challenge.

 

Each difficulty increase/challenge setting the player or team leader chose to include would increase influence gain, a multiplier to merits gained for completing the content, or a stackable % chance for a second reward window at the end of the content. Something along the lines of feeling rewarding for playing at a higher difficulty, but not so that it would feel required to do so. 

 

I believe that with these additional difficulty settings the incarnate system can flourish and be expanded upon, as long we stay away from adding more level shifts.

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6 hours ago, Black Zot said:

I knew this thread would bring out the nerfherders.

 

Seriously, can we have even ONE discussion about Incarnate stuff that doesn't involve a bunch of people whining "I don't like that these people are allowed to have fun, take it away"?  Just ONCE?

 

One can say "This may be overpowered" and not be asking for a nerf.  😛

 

The question was asked.  You can answer the question yourself with "These powers are not overpowered" or "these powers are not unbalanced with each other"

 

Let's take Interfaces, I'm taken ones based purely on concept.  I liked my Energy Melee/ using concept to have End Drain in the concept, but I'll be honest, that End Drain did nothing extra and damage wise, the Interface lost out to Fire/-Resist and I believe to Toxix/-HP.  I can't remember where the -Regen/-ToHit one sat.

 

However, I did use the -Regen/-ToHit on my Water/Time for instance, for a little more -Regen (Time being weak in that area anyways) and I felt concept wise it worked the best.  Now mind you, when I say this, I can't do to much about those Damage Procs in IOs and look the other way there 😛

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1 hour ago, BrandX said:

 

One can say "This may be overpowered" and not be asking for a nerf.  😛

 

 

That would be a valid point if half the people in this thread weren't explicitly demanding for Incarnates to be stripped of some or all of their power - ie a NERF.

 

It gets really tiresome to read, over and over, thread after thread, the same group of people being salty that someone out there might actually LIKE an easy game and trotting out, yet again, some variation of "make this harder" or "take that away".  And there's no point in disagreeing with them since they'll just shout you down every damn time.

Edited by Black Zot
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@Black Zot It doesn't seem too hopeless as many do seem to recognize part of the problem is the lack of Incarnate content and might be willing to accept expansion on challenge and difficulty.

 

As I mentioned in my own post, I feel like more than a few of the base level 50 enemy groups (not necessarily incarnate themselves) could stand to be reexamined, and similarly much of the content as well, though to what extent they should be is difficult. I want to say a key to enemy group difficulty should be diversity in their mobs, but that in of itself makes them all rather samey wouldn't it? I get why, but it does bug me that the ONLY thing that makes some groups challenging is 1 or 2 tricks and the rest are just cannon fodder. For Nemesis it's the dependence on stacking vengeance, for Carnies it's Master Illusionists and Mask of Vitiation, for Rikti it's stun spam, Malta isn't nearly a threat without their Sappers, Longbow has Nullifiers, and then there's those who lack any 'gimmick' and just end up real fodder. (council, PPD, CoT) And the only decently designed groups in the base 50 without incarnates would be Arachnos and the IDF who do actually use diverse tactics to deal with all sorts of players and playstyles.

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Hi there, a quick note before I give my comments, I really enjoy the feeling of progression past 50, for me in pre-Incarnate times, hitting 50 felt like the end of a character, the Incarnate system extended them, and that is something I have really enjoyed and HC the vet levels add to that, I still get to go "ding" which makes me happy

What you like

The progress, and the different powers to play with, I know that there are "optimal" selections, but I don't feel pressured to take them, and I try to follow the characters' theme or story to help me select the ones that fit

What don't you like

I often feel that there is no "reason" to have them, I mean they do good things but I don't see them fitting into a narrative very well, for example why does my mutant tanker all of a suddent have Tsoo "ghosts" following them around? It's cool that I can do that but I feel like they aren't necessary, really wish that future content provided context for some of these abilities

Balance of the sets

This is a place that I don't have a strong comment on, I don't really care about balance, I think that's why CoH appeals to me, it isn't very balanced, Incarnates as well,

I do wish I had more options, but that's just me, I realise adding to the system would bring up the question of balance to many of the players here

The crafting system

I'll echo what has already been said, get rid of the shards, switch everything over to threads, maybe make threads transferable between characters or accounts, for those that have too many of them, maybe at a loss like 3 for 1

Where you'd like to see them go

This is the part where I feel I would be asking for the moon, but I would love to see this, someday, way down the road, the game to continue the super hero/villain story,

Magic origins developing world shattering powers to deal with Dormammu,

Mutants facing Apocalypse and his horsemen,

Everyone standing against Darkseid, Galactus and so on

I want to feel the transition from fifteen year old Peter Parker, all the way to crazy overpowered Kal-El, and for that to work there needs to be themes and stories that make that make sense, and after that there needs to be a sandbox for those OP toons to play in, Dark Astoria is amazing but I'd also like to run around on Apokolips, deal with the evil future version of myself and their mobs ala Adam Warlock, go toe to toe with the Greek pantheon and so on

In a more general sense, to continue the progression, whether that is more Incarnate slots and level shifts, which is fine, if it's a mechanic that every 500 vet levels your secondary shifts to primary power levels one power at a time, or you get a brand new power set to slot, or just new slots for existing powers, or tier 6-9 slotting for existing Incarnate abilities, whatever it is as long as I feel I'm going somewhere I'm happy

 

That's my two inf

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I don't like the incarnate system.  The interface is ridiculously bad.  Half the powers are extraordinarily overpowered, and half are generally harmless.  Most of the time it makes a near god-like character into full god-like.   But it does a terrible job of making a mediocre character into a great character, imo.

 

My incredibly unpopular suggestion:  Make all incarnate salvage fungible by rarity and lock it account-wide, so you can move incarnate salvage from one character to another.  Then lock the number of incarnates per account to one.  You want a godlike character?  You get one.  You want two?  Make a new account or demote your other god.  One thing about living in Paragon City I never could stomach, all the damn godlike characters.

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I'm going to mirror what others have said in that in a Vacuum, Incarnates are fine. Its when you have a team or better yet a league of heroes that ALL have Judgements, Lores, and Destinies stacking that it gets ridiculous.

 

New incarnate content (whether that be actual content or new enemies, modes, etc) will need to account for that in some way. 

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3 hours ago, Black Zot said:

That would be a valid point if half the people in this thread weren't explicitly demanding for Incarnates to be stripped of some or all of their power - ie a NERF.

 

It gets really tiresome to read, over and over, thread after thread, the same group of people being salty that someone out there might actually LIKE an easy game and trotting out, yet again, some variation of "make this harder" or "take that away".  And there's no point in disagreeing with them since they'll just shout you down every damn time.

This is a thread asking for opinions.

 

Peoples opinions do not have to agree with yours.


Stating those opinions is not a demand for anything, especially when in response to a request FOR those opinions.

 

If you find reading opinions that differ from yours "tiresome," then just use the reply feature at the very bottom, leave your opinion as requested, and ignore the thread after that. Problem solved.

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If it were up to me, I'd rebalance a bunch of these.

Alpha is fine, though I did find myself nodding at a suggestion that if you get them all, you can go "a'la carte" (did I spell that right?) and just pick the bonuses you want. Especially since for most builds, there's only like 2 or 3 good choices anyway, and a lot of times you're enhancing stuff you don't need to.

Spiritual I'd tone down. Longer recharge on those suckers, and maybe reduce their effects when not on a team or league. Alternately, I'd reduce the effectiveness on other targets. So like for Barrier, YOU get like +50 Def/Res, but your nearby allies only get half that.

Judgement, similar thing. Also, more options!

Interface I'd like to buff, especially for solo play. Maybe make the debuffs and DoTs like 2x or even 3x as strong, but it scales back downwards the more people who are on your team or league, like a reverse Vigilance.

Lore, I'd make sure EVERY T4 Pet has a -Res effect on their attacks so that they're all as mechanically useful as the Longbow and BP ones (or at least something else as useful, like -MaxHp or -Regen). Also, I'd give Vanguard their Giant Mech!

 

Hybrid, I'd make all except Assault better, dunno how exactly. Damage is king, so the other ones need a way to catch up.

As for future plans, well, I'd aim toward making us as strong as we are in Mender Ramiel's flash-forward: Tough as nails and chumping AVs: More DoT, stat boosts, survivability boosts, etc. Obviously these would have to scale back as to not completely trivialize an already completely trivialized game. Maybe something like the boosts at P2W, except they last 2 minutes at a time instead of an hour.

And like everyone else said, stronger baddies to use these powers on!

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The window for Incarnates is awful, not in any way intuitive.  If anything else, it should have been designed to look like the usual powers 'n' slots window, no way you'd get confused looking at that after 50.  The crafting should be the same, it should mirror (or even get merged with, although you can't sell anything) with the pre-existing crafting systems.   A bunch of explanatory mouse-over windows (that you could choose to disable) would also go a long long way to making the system more usable.

 

 

I have never bounced off anything in-game for so long as I did with the incarnate system and I'm only half stupid - please won't someone think of the stupids?!

Edited by Clave Dark 5
Spelling mistakes - because I am half stupid.
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Request : New Lore Pets.

 

Knives of Artemis, and/or Malta Operatives.

 

I really would love a Zeus titan lore pet. I can already see it - Malta Core Superior Ally would be a Zeus Titan side-by-side with a Gunslinger. It... would be so beautiful...

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