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Zone Travel Updates in Issue 27

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1 hour ago, Glacier Peak said:

But that is a fair trade off, it's an accolade power. If it followed the same rules as the other accolade powers,  it wouldn't unlock with just one requirement. The HC team are being extra helpful to players by doing so. As an example, Portal Jockey takes way longer, Task Force Commander even more so, Archmage even more(r) so 🤣

 

I never said it wasn't fair. I just said we need to be honest about the time it takes to accomplish. 

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1 hour ago, Glacier Peak said:

But that is a fair trade off, it's an accolade power. If it followed the same rules as the other accolade powers,  it wouldn't unlock with just one requirement. The HC team are being extra helpful to players by doing so. As an example, Portal Jockey takes way longer, Task Force Commander even more so, Archmage even more(r) so 🤣

No one asked for game functions to be locked behind additional badge grinding.  There's a reason the devs on live quit adding those kind of things to the game.  If we followed the same rules as the other accolade powers on live then we would need a time machine because they stopped adding them after issue 9 or so.

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5 minutes ago, josh1622 said:

If we followed the same rules as the other accolade powers on live then we would need a time machine because they stopped adding them after issue 9 or so.

Actually I think it was because they started selling them or including them in the Veteran Rewards system. Most of these teleporter powers (especially Team Transporter) could've easily been accolades you earned in game. Same with Mystic Fortune, Secondary Mutation, Shadowy Presence, Reveal, etc.

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People have jobs now, families, responsibilities. This isn't WOW. These new travel changes aren't player friendly. Googling for exploration badge locations so players can travel faster to a zone, but on a 10 minute cool down, when the main dopamine from this game comes from showing off your gorgeous character and their powerset while fighting with friends on semi difficult missions. Not grinding for f*ck!ng badges when we find time in our lives to play! I hate this specific change and its stupid.

 

 

Ill probably still play though

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28 minutes ago, josh1622 said:

No one asked for game functions to be locked behind additional badge grinding.  There's a reason the devs on live quit adding those kind of things to the game.  If we followed the same rules as the other accolade powers on live then we would need a time machine because they stopped adding them after issue 9 or so.

Not true at all.  There is a very long thread about this very topic - rewards behind content gating for progression.  Some of the posters (including me) believe that some rewards should have to be earned by completing content.  Others disagree.

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39 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Actually I think it was because they started selling them or including them in the Veteran Rewards system. Most of these teleporter powers (especially Team Transporter) could've easily been accolades you earned in game. Same with Mystic Fortune, Secondary Mutation, Shadowy Presence, Reveal, etc.

Makes sense.   I think since badge unlocks were mostly abandoned on live you will see opposition to it.  I'm content with the compromises you've already made regarding TP cooldown and activation times (means I don't need to badge grind) but I am trying to think of things from the perspective of those who are still voicing criticism.

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2 minutes ago, josh1622 said:

Makes sense.   I think since badge unlocks were mostly abandoned on live you will see opposition to it.  I'm content with the compromises you've already made regarding TP cooldown and activation times (means I don't need to badge grind) but I am trying to think of things from the perspective of those who are still voicing criticism.

Yeah, that's fair. I think some of the things we're looking at for future development (specifically the tour guide missions and batteries mentioned in the OP) should meet those needs.

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2 hours ago, Lockpick said:

Not true at all.  There is a very long thread about this very topic - rewards behind content gating for progression.  Some of the posters (including me) believe that some rewards should have to be earned by completing content.  Others disagree.

Sorry I was being hyperbolic.  Obviously some people requested those things.  You guys are posting in this thread.

Edited by josh1622

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55 minutes ago, josh1622 said:

No one asked for game functions to be locked behind additional badge grinding.  There's a reason the devs on live quit adding those kind of things to the game.  If we followed the same rules as the other accolade powers on live then we would need a time machine because they stopped adding them after issue 9 or so.

47 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

Actually I think it was because they started selling them or including them in the Veteran Rewards system. Most of these teleporter powers (especially Team Transporter) could've easily been accolades you earned in game. Same with Mystic Fortune, Secondary Mutation, Shadowy Presence, Reveal, etc.

To further reinforce this point: Paragon did at least consider adding the classic accolades to the cash shop. The code for paid-for accolades was there, they either just didn't activate them yet or decided against it.

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2 hours ago, Jimmy said:

LRT is now in the P2W vendor, and the base access functionality for LRT is now much more obvious.

This is appreciated, thank you.

 

10 hours ago, Arli said:

I agree with Faultline - it is not a false equivalency. Your hyperbolic example doesn't necessarily prevent the fact that the /ebfp command could have been used by players to access instances and missions they were not invited to; which was especially profound if an unruly player was kicked from an instance and used that command to return anyway.

That's irrelevant: As I understand it, the dangerous part of the exploit is fixed, and would presumably remain fixed even if /ebfp hadn't been removed from general access. 

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55 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

To further reinforce this point: Paragon did at least consider adding the classic accolades to the cash shop. The code for paid-for accolades was there, they either just didn't activate them yet or decided against it.

That would have set off a shit storm if they had done that.  There were already complaints about pay to win and that would sent some players off...

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5 hours ago, ZacKing said:

Yeah I know what it means to me, and that's not having to juggle all of these "improvements" instead of just one power.  Your opinion differs and that's ok. 

That's why we have the Fast Travel popmenu.

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6 hours ago, Blackbird71 said:

We've repeatedly been given answers without a logical explanation or substantial reason for the specifics of the available powers, even when suggestions, reasons and examples are given for different options.

That's not true.  They have answered, but you don't like their responses.  You don't have to like them, but you can't honestly pretend that they haven't been given.  At this point, if I were them, I would give you the answer my father gave me when I kept asking why -- "Porque si", which is "Because I said so" in English . . . although it's literally "Because yes" . . . Spanish is weird.

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I'm just remembering back in the day when I had to hoof it across Steel Canyon to change tram lines.

 

Locating exploration points is easy when you have the Vidiots map pack installed and gathering them is the absolutely easiest way to nab Merits.

 

Thanks Devs for all you do.

 

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1 hour ago, Oubliette_Red said:

I'm just remembering back in the day when I had to hoof it across Steel Canyon to change tram lines.

 

Locating exploration points is easy when you have the Vidiots map pack installed and gathering them is the absolutely easiest way to nab Merits.

 

Thanks Devs for all you do.

 

And the absolute "woo!" from getting the SG TP Accolade that let you use a port to the area!

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And we're back.  Again, we're after feedback, not speculation and overt campaigning to bring the prior GM command back.  We've already said it's not going to return.

 

Please keep discussion about the current efforts, please.  We see the same users arguing repeatedly.

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2 hours ago, Darmian said:

And the absolute "woo!" from getting the SG TP Accolade that let you use a port to the area!

Back in the day, unlocking the Base Teleport Beacon for a Zone required a Supergroup member running around to all the Badges in the Zone in Supergroup Mode.

 

I'm really glad those Teleport Beacons are now unlocked by default.

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Just wanted to say thanks for putting the kibosh on the slash command, it was my #1 wishlist item for the whole game. The biggest piece of gameplay removed from old school CoH was... well it was endurance management with inherent fitness, but the second biggest one was traversal. It's still way too easy to get around but now I actually feel like I get something when I clock day job time for a teleporter. And I no longer have to be treated like the weird vegetarian when I go the long way and get to the mission 10 seconds after everyone else.

Now my biggest travel wish is for Arcane Flight, Mighty Leap, and Speed of Sound not to be strictly better versions of other powers in pools dedicated to those modes of travel.

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18 hours ago, Blackbird71 said:

Except that those are not explanations.  They are decisions for which the only explanations given amount to "because we said so," despite the many reasoned, logical arguments for why the specifics of the decisions can and should be changed.  This is why you are facing such backlash and dissatisfaction over the change.  Talk to us like intelligent adults; give us a reasoned justification for why things have to be the way they are, for why there need to be so many different powers to achieve the same thing, why the cool downs need to be so long, why the costs need to be so high, etc.  And if you can't offer such justifications, then consider that maybe the decision is wrong and should be changed. 

 

This game has always had a progression.  That's one of the defining features of role playing games in general.  Everything from your powers to the type of content you can do to, yes, what zones you can access.

 

Specifically relevant here is that CoH has always had limits on travel that created a progress.  Low level characters on fresh accounts had less access to travel then a maxed out 50 with all the Vet rewards.  You'd start with sprint/swift/hurdle.  Everyone gets that for free. You can even buff them if you want at level 3 with some enh.  That costs you both slots and inf in addition to the time required to level to 3.  Not much, but still *A* cost even if just an opportunity cost.  On live a new player could either get a paid account and accrue vet tokens or spend real money in the shop to start getting Vet Tokens and spend those on travel unlocks or they could buy the Beast Pack or... whatever had the ninja run.  I forget.  You could buy the VIP Pocket D pack.  You could unlock Oroboros. WW TP, Base TP Day Job.

 

Heck, you could pick all of them.  But if you picked none of them you would be at a relative disadvantage to someone who spent the time/energy/inf/real money.  That was intentional.  Adding the /ebfp command removed that progress.  Suddenly everyone had equal access to all the travel content. This broke a core tenant that the more time/energy/inf you invested into the travel systems the more options you had for travel.  It removed the progression that was present and intended by the original devs.

 

This is likely why even the Homecoming devs have made the comparison to a GM /killall command.  There is a progression in the combat systems that starts with Brawl and your initial powers being kind of crap.  Up to some ATs getting the power to wipe out whole groups in one shot with the proper investments of time/slots/inf/etc. All those new combat powers and Enh and all the other powers and systems add up to reducing enemy HP faster. Some attacks are slower but do more damage.  Some are faster with lower damage.  Some protect you while you deal damage.  Things like Incarnate systems dramatically improve your abilities there.  But they are not the best it COULD be, they all have positive and negitive traits.  Requirements, time sinks, inf costs, etc. They do fall along a progression though. 

 

A hypothetical /killall command would be the most effective option. It does the same things all the combat powers do, just better.  The goal of combat is to survive long enough to reduce enemy HP to zero.  /killall just does that better then all the other powers in the game.  It also renders all the progression and variation in power choices irrelevant.

 

You could formulate an argument in support of a /killall command...

 

  • /killall doesn't remove content, it just reduces a timesink.
  • Combat is so easy that winning is basically a foregone conclusion already. /killall just speeds up mission completion.
  • No one has to use /killall but if you remove it you force people who don't want to do combat-content to play the way you want them to.
  • Forcing players to play the way "you" want is inherently a bad thing and should be avoided.
  • Introducing half-measures like boosted damage or new high dmg AoE temp powers is not enough because it's not as good as /killall.

 

Now, there are actually several arguments in there.  Being able to bypass some missions isn't necessarily a bad thing and can be considered separately.  Of course the existing systems actually allows for that to various degrees already so it's not a perfect comparison. Unless... you compare that to people being able to enter bases more freely and being able to save access to specific bases.  If that is considered separately you can see part of the issue the Homecoming devs are having.

 

It seems they have no issue with people accessing bases more easily on it's face.  It's that bases are not JUST bases.  They're also TP hubs.  If the exploits were removed and the base TP beacons were removed, I bet the devs wouldn't care that much about the /ebfp command.  As long as the TP beacons remain then quick/easy access to the bases also means quick and easy access to all zones. That negates the traditional progression of power as it relates to travel in this game.

 

While the Devs were clearly ok with opening more options and giving people more options then they had, as evidenced by the fact that they did do this.  They were not ok with completely blowing up the travel progression in the game that had existed since launch until closing.

 

Any argument that starts with a request to remove or negate the travel progression completely is going to be a non-starter.  In the same way any request to remove or negate the combat progression is null.

 

I am not saying anything that one or more devs didn't already say.   The justification has always been that this is the way the game is.  Changes to the status quo must be justified.

 

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As someone who fell in love with (and ended up writing about) Paragon City, I'm always a little boggled at people who don't ever want to see any of it - who seem, in fact, to want to reduce the whole experience to "click through a door and beat up everything inside it in as little time as possible; then exit and immediately teleport directly to the next door."  Basically, a lobby shooter.  I guess I'm not exactly surprised, given the popularity of AE farming, in which not even the entrance changes... but it seems to me that something essential is lost.

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7 minutes ago, Megajoule said:

As someone who fell in love with (and ended up writing about) Paragon City, I'm always a little boggled at people who don't ever want to see any of it - who seem, in fact, to want to reduce the whole experience to "click through a door and beat up everything inside it in as little time as possible; then exit and immediately teleport directly to the next door."  Basically, a lobby shooter.  I guess I'm not exactly surprised, given the popularity of AE farming, in which not even the entrance changes... but it seems to me that something essential is lost.

I really feel this. My favorite thing about the update is that it gives you reason to travel around the city still. Skill and zone knowledge now have some importance again.

Edited by Normal Thomas
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43 minutes ago, Megajoule said:

As someone who fell in love with (and ended up writing about) Paragon City, I'm always a little boggled at people who don't ever want to see any of it - who seem, in fact, to want to reduce the whole experience to "click through a door and beat up everything inside it in as little time as possible; then exit and immediately teleport directly to the next door."  Basically, a lobby shooter.  I guess I'm not exactly surprised, given the popularity of AE farming, in which not even the entrance changes... but it seems to me that something essential is lost.

I suppose I can sort of understand it, especially for some of the ITFs that send you to hell and back to get a drink of water or something, but I also agree that just tooling about, even if you're rushing to do so, to get to your next mission is usually part of the fun, at least for me.  Over the weekend I started a new stalker (best tourist-mode toon, of course!) and actually started him redside which was my original home, and soloed him up to like 20.  Taking the time to re-visit all those trashy places was just wonderful, I'm not crying, I've just got some endearing pollution and smog from the Isles in my eye.

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8 hours ago, Megajoule said:

As someone who fell in love with (and ended up writing about) Paragon City, I'm always a little boggled at people who don't ever want to see any of it - who seem, in fact, to want to reduce the whole experience to "click through a door and beat up everything inside it in as little time as possible; then exit and immediately teleport directly to the next door."  Basically, a lobby shooter.  I guess I'm not exactly surprised, given the popularity of AE farming, in which not even the entrance changes... but it seems to me that something essential is lost.

I've always been a badge collector in this game, now and back on live.  And I honestly don't know why people think it's a grind, yet they don't complain about plowing through hordes of Council for hours on end.  Sure, I pretty much know where every badge is without Vidiotmaps help, but I still go to each and still get a memory sparked from getting to the southern most badge in Kings Row or the badge to the east of the Icon in Steel Canyon.  I have good memories of just finding badges from back on live, and I'm making new discoveries now that HC has brought it back.

 

And there's stuff here in Paragon and the Rogue Isles (and Praetoria, sure) that I have honestly missed back on Live, and I've run across it now.  It's like playing Skyrim for the umpteenth time, and discovering there was a quest in one location that throughout every other playthrough you've never done.  It's refreshing and brings new life to things.

 

I'm very much more of a casual player, and while I play casually, I still trick out my toons so they can survive and fight.  And I've done pretty darn well with my two level 50s (and three more who are quickly making the trek to that level cap).  Badge hunting is just a part of that entire gaming experience.  Atlas Park is a breeze to get all the badges for.  By the time you hit Kings Row, you should have a travel power.  Skyway City may be the more challenging of the zones to collect badges in, but I always collected them in Skyway as part of completing missions in that zone.  My mission's here at this door and there's two exploration badges and a plaque nearby, gonna pick 'em up.

 

The changes to the way we all teleport are entirely fine as far as I'm concerned.  I never used them that often unless I had to go through a base.  And any time I needed to go through a base during a mission sweep involved going to the base teleporter in the zone, not using the /ebfp command line.  I've said previously that I have used it, but that was to show off base construction.

 

There's a lotta things to see in this game, and just teleporting around without actually exploring tends to miss a lot.

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7 hours ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

I suppose I can sort of understand it, especially for some of the ITFs that send you to hell and back to get a drink of water or something, but I also agree that just tooling about, even if you're rushing to do so, to get to your next mission is usually part of the fun, at least for me.  Over the weekend I started a new stalker (best tourist-mode toon, of course!) and actually started him redside which was my original home, and soloed him up to like 20.  Taking the time to re-visit all those trashy places was just wonderful, I'm not crying, I've just got some endearing pollution and smog from the Isles in my eye.

Stalkers are the best for that.  Level 1, head to the tram, hit Talox and then onto Peregrin Island.  Without having to fight a thing.  It's the best!

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