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That is Why You Fail

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9 minutes ago, Draeth Darkstar said:

I think something as small as, "Hey folks, we're starting internal testing for Page 2, and our goal for this one is [lead feature]," would have been perfectly satisfactory. There's no need to reinvent the wheel with every post, of course, but there's also no need for there to be zero public information about what's currently being tested for the next release.

Fair, however for internal testing any info about it needs to come with a caveat that everything is subject to change/removal for Page 2. Afterall, closed beta is a bit of a sandbox at times, things will get tested just to see if it can work and not necessarily get implemented. So if the community is mature enough to understand that such a heads up is in no way a guarantee, then I could see the HC team providing that info to the community. But if it turns into flame wars and crying foul over things that were promised (when they weren't actually promised) not being included, then clearly such forthright information would likely become a reverted practice.

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The reality is that both Cipher and myself (who tend to be the ones posting publicly) have both been extremely busy in real life lately - just take a look at my post history since Christmas. The little time we have had has been spent on other areas of the project.

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2 minutes ago, Jimmy said:

The reality is that both Cipher and myself (who tend to be the ones posting publicly) have both been extremely busy in real life lately - just take a look at my post history since Christmas. The little time we have had has been spent on other areas of the project.

I'm not in any way trying to levy blame at you or anyone else, individually. Your collective (lack of) post history is sort of what I'm getting at, though. Both you all and the community could mutually benefit from somebody who's sole job it is just to communicate that Stuff is, in fact, Happening, whether you're too busy to talk about it or not.

 

Hell, I'll volunteer for the job myself, while acknowledging there are a great many people more qualified than I am. I do at least understand code and technical jargon and have a healthy amount of experience translating that into business-speak, which is similar, if not the same. I'll be working remotely for my day job for the foreseeable future, so I've got time to kill and I could use some more humans to talk to.


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5 hours ago, Draeth Darkstar said:

I did, back before Homecoming was even a Thing. I was one of the people who helped connect Cipher and Leandro after OG Torchbearer was taken down.

Curious that you landed in this position then

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I also want to say that I am a pragmatic developer, an idealist, and a realist.

 

These three mentalities often come into conflict, but there was some stuff that I acknowledged and decided to continue with. I know that not everything I did was popular, but the end result was rewarding because:

1) I saw a wider range of players tell me what they thought

2) I saw the range of reactions to things people liked

3) I was able to go back and determine a personal metric for how much is too much

 

Sometimes, you really can't get the thing right until a couple of people really tear you down. And sometimes, you just don't consider all the angles.

 

Flame me if you will, and I'm expressing humility and vulnerability in saying this:

I didn't consider that someone's kid would be playing my arc and not catch context clues. (That Mander was Salamander. Nobody throw shade on that topic!)
I didn't consider that people would be running this arc partially slotted, unslotted, or poorly spec'ed.

I didn't consider that the difficulty would be accepted as so high.

 

I could blame literally all of that on the feedback, but to some degree, I need to know these things. So, this is how I learn.

 

Human beings learn through failure and pain, in my own opinion. I have no scientific facts to justify the claim. And while this was not, according to more than a few people by a bunch's opinions, a failure, the feedback was at times painful. And that was how I learned.

 

Be kind, be gentle. I'm listening. Just because I didn't do the thing, doesn't mean I didn't listen, read, or internalize it for the future. It just didn't suit the moment, the story, or the timeline to make the change.

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@Piecemeal, your product is admirable, in my estimation you did a phenomenal job.

 

Much of what I do is system analysis and design from a business and user perspective, bridging the gap between user and programmer, basically an architect of system logic. Much of this has to do with vast system design that touches every aspect of a business, from supply chain origins to end user, on the way touching every aspect of ERP from sales, finance, engineering, marketing and production.

 

Building even a small comprehensive system from both programmer and user perspective that is FUNCTIONAL is a feat in and of itself. Bug free and perfect is never possible on a live 1.0 release/launch.

 

Being that you analyzed, programmed and diagnosed from all three roles in majority is commendable. Be proud!

 

And if anyone tells you it's too hard, tell them to go play OG nintendo games. Further, if their critique is decidedly negative... Well, that's a reflection of them, not your work.

Edited by SwitchFade
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Gawd help ya, @Piecemeal. As someone who edits for a living (text, not code - code rusty!) I get to do the tearing down, the complaints, the whatevers.  But all I do is unseen. I'm not the public. So kudos, fair play, and may your next be even better. And I say that as someone who loved both. 

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16 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Much of what I do is system analysis and design

Hang on, I thought you were an economics professor?

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2 hours ago, Jimmy said:

Hang on, I thought you were an economics professor?

I don my cape and fight crime as...

 

Econodrowser!

 

Battling the scurrilous ne'er-do-wells spreading economic mischief, by spewing nonsensical word-vomit, inducing a mind-addled drowsy-state!

 

System architecture thingies 'n stuffs is my mild mannered secret identity, Trent McBoringson

 

Hey... There's your new power set, word vomit 🤮!

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I have sympathy for the original post.  I also think it was a bit too harsh.

 

I've been playing City ever since 2005.  The 2012 shutdown was devastating.  But we got City back and even in the open for the last 2 years.  For now it is not completely secure, but it's better than not having it at all.

 

City is an old game, originally designed over 20 years ago.  It roughly followed the commercial MMO practices up to 2012.  The game evolved quite a bit.  But being a commercial product, it has factors in its design that created a degree of complexity and busywork beyond what a game needed.  And even from a game point of view, many facets needed attention.

 

From 2012 to 2019, several things changed and a lot of Quality of Life was added in.  Then it came back into the open and the company of people who operate and improve City expanded.  Now more things are possible.

 

But City being an old established game has its version of what the Sciences and Crafts have, which is Richard Feynman's Imagination in a Straightjacket.  Advancement doesn't really overturn what has been well and properly investigated and developed so much as it extents knowledge into new areas.

 

For a game of long standing, there's a limit to what can be changed.  Because change almost always mixes both improvement and disruption.  For a brand new game, the range of possible design choices is much larger because there's not the sunk cost by the community of adapting to the existing game.  For an established game, there's going to be pushback to most changes, from respectful to rather more heated.

 

We saw that with Issue 27 Page 1.  There's things there a lot of people didn't like, me among them.  But I also realised that some change has to happen.  And I liked a lot of what Issue 27 Page 1 brought.

 

And some changes have to be tested and polished not in a beta but rolled out to the live game.  Because only then in the months that follow can the change be observed in all its details and interactions.  No beta will ever catch everything not quite right.

 

I want to see more changes in the game.  I also realise that some changes have to be vetted carefully even before they go to close beta because they are so radical and will challenge the community if pursued.

 

But @Gavric is right to point out that City is not very friendly to new players.  Others including the devs realise that.  This really matters because every community is always losing members and needs to recruit and be open to those new recruits to survive.

 

 

11 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

Hey... There's your new power set, word vomit 🤮!

Dr Vahzilok already implemented it.

 

12 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

But Jimmy, why can't he design and analyze economic systems then teach others how to as well?

@Bionic_Flea, is there a master index of your "But Jimmy" posts, sort of like the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition?

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17 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

I don my cape and fight crime as...

 

Econodrowser!

 

Battling the scurrilous ne'er-do-wells spreading economic mischief, by spewing nonsensical word-vomit, inducing a mind-addled drowsy-state!

 

System architecture thingies 'n stuffs is my mild mannered secret identity, Trent McBoringson

 

Hey... There's your new power set, word vomit 🤮!

1417058318_2021-02-12(2).thumb.png.2ace59e7b31eba020ebd578e2d677f79.png

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On 2/10/2021 at 4:39 PM, Draeth Darkstar said:

I'm not in any way trying to levy blame at you or anyone else, individually. Your collective (lack of) post history is sort of what I'm getting at, though. Both you all and the community could mutually benefit from somebody who's sole job it is just to communicate that Stuff is, in fact, Happening, whether you're too busy to talk about it or not.

 

Hell, I'll volunteer for the job myself, while acknowledging there are a great many people more qualified than I am. I do at least understand code and technical jargon and have a healthy amount of experience translating that into business-speak, which is similar, if not the same. I'll be working remotely for my day job for the foreseeable future, so I've got time to kill and I could use some more humans to talk to.

I personally don't find posts "stuff is happening, that is subject to change and may never see the light of day" to be all that useful. (And could be detrimental in the long run for folks who don't understand or accept the "subject to change part").

 

I prefer how HC has been communicating. When they have something more concreate to tell us, they do.

 

I don't need to know about wishlists or what they would like to do. I like to hear about what is actually coming.

Edited by golstat2003
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1 hour ago, Ukase said:

You have Friedman and no Keynes? Tsk, tsk. 

I don't get Call Bruiser for another level.

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3 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

I personally don't find posts "stuff is happening, that is subject to change and may never see the light of day" to be all that useful. (And could be detrimental in the long run for folks who don't understand or accept the "subject to change part").

 

I prefer how HC has been communicating. When they have something more concreate to tell us, they do.

 

I don't need to know about wishlists or what they would like to do. I like to hear about what is actually coming.

Which is exactly what I'm asking for. There's an update in testing right now. No one outside that test has any idea what's in it, and while there may be some experimental features, it certainly isn't all, especially in the broad strokes. Take Page 1, for example: You could describe one of the key features of that patch as "Making a balance pass over Blaster secondary sets," without getting into any of the changes that were being experimented with.


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41 minutes ago, Draeth Darkstar said:

Which is exactly what I'm asking for. There's an update in testing right now. No one outside that test has any idea what's in it, and while there may be some experimental features, it certainly isn't all, especially in the broad strokes. Take Page 1, for example: You could describe one of the key features of that patch as "Making a balance pass over Blaster secondary sets," without getting into any of the changes that were being experimented with.

And that change could still of end up not making it to Open Beta.

 

When it's in Open Beta, that's a different story however. So then sure. Before, it's not guaranteed to even make it to production, or Open Beta.

Edited by golstat2003
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I know a few things in closed beta went so horribly wrong on my end I'm glad you didnt see that aspect of my learning curve in Open.

 

"This should do it!"

"The arc is hardlocked and can't be completed without GM intervention now!"

"EXPLETIVES! SO THAT WAS WHY THAT CLUE WAS THERE."

 

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Honestly, most of my "specimens" were several iterations past being considered a human being with their original fingerprints, teeth, or IDs. So it was rather a lot like experimenting on moaning clay putty."

 


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2 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

And that change could still of end up not making it to Open Beta.

And even in Open Beta, it's not guaranteed to make it to live...  the first two versions of the Dark Melee changes got reverted on Open Beta.

But honestly, no.  Advance notice of changes leads to nothing but heartache.  I spent months correcting people's belief that the SO Upgrade feature was immanent - what had been published to Open Beta was experimental.  (It turned out that it did in fact make the next release, but we didn't know that at the time.)

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3 hours ago, Piecemeal said:

I know a few things in closed beta went so horribly wrong on my end I'm glad you didnt see that aspect of my learning curve in Open.

 

"This should do it!"

"The arc is hardlocked and can't be completed without GM intervention now!"

"EXPLETIVES! SO THAT WAS WHY THAT CLUE WAS THERE."

 

-Excerpt from the personal diary of Myrmidon


And that was a weekly occurrence.🤣

 

After reading this thread, it’s clear that I will have to change my usual play style (full attuned IO build in trays/storage ready to go at level 1 to slot while playing) and go full SO Masochism to work on any future mission testing.

Edited by Myrmidon
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