Titan Weapon Damage working as intended

[Moodz85]

I'm not sure how far this will reach out, but I wanted to bring to attention that TW is not performing as intended even after the patch, it is severely under performing. I did some of my own calculations pre patch to post patch, and the numbers are substantially lower than intended. with an 8-10% damage reduction to TW, I am seeing, in my test runs and clears, more along the lines of 50-60% damage reduction
pre-patch damage of my ability Titan Sweep was 450, and a 10% damage reduction, so 90% of 450 is 405, (against 54 mobs damage is 65% of max), so 65 percent of 405 is 263, which is still substantially higher than I am currently hitting when I'm only hitting for 103 with Titan Sweep. which is substantially lower then what it should be. I'm noticing these kind of damage drops with everything from Defensive Sweep, Whirling Smash (which is actually hitting harder than Titan Sweep by 2 points, and it shouldn't be) and Arc of Destruction, all substantially lower than the 8-10 percent reduction that was supposed to be seen.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Moodz85

[srmalloy]

Just as a check to make sure something isn't overlooked, do the damage numbers you see in the combat pane and floating over your target reflect gross damage or net damage (i.e., after the target's resistance is subtracted?

[Moodz85]

Hey srmalloy. All testing was done against the identical mobs the previous numbers were taken against. Same build, same farm, Identical circumstances.

[Bopper]

Keep in mind, old TW was out performing the Design Formula by 8-10%. Now, it follows the Design Formula exactly, but that also includes when Momentum reduces the recharge time of attacks by 25%, the damage is scaled down with that. Also, you have the base recharge of Arc of Destruction reducing from 20s to 16s (12s under momentum) and you no longer have DoTs on Whirling Smash nor Follow Through.

[Moodz85]

The numbers don't add up though. If it were out performing by 8-10%, it would then see an 8-10% damage reduction. The numbers are showing a much larger drop in damage output than 8-10%. Also Whirling Smash is now hitting harder than Titan Sweep by 2 points, which WS is a moderate damage output, and Titan Sweep is a High. When an ability goes from hitting for 350ish (on lvl 54 mobs) to 103, that's a much larger drop than 8-10%, and should probably be addressed, because it is severely under performing now.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Moodz85

[Pzn]

1 hour ago, Moodz85 said:

The numbers don't add up though. If it were out performing by 8-10%, it would then see an 8-10% damage reduction. The numbers are showing a much larger drop in damage output than 8-10%. Also Whirling Smash is now hitting harder than Titan Sweep by 2 points, which WS is a moderate damage output, and Titan Sweep is a High. When an ability goes from hitting for 350ish to 103, that's a much higher drop than 8-10%, and should probably be addressed, because it is severely under performing now.

If I'm understanding him correctly, he is saying that the 8-10% reduction was applied to all the attacks all the time.  And an additional damage reduction on top of that 8-10% is applied during momentum.  So the total damage reduction during momentum is much higher than 8-10%.

[Moodz85]

9 minutes ago, josh1622 said:

If I'm understanding him correctly, he is saying that the 8-10% reduction was applied to all the attacks all the time.  And an additional damage reduction on top of that 8-10% is applied during momentum.  So the total damage reduction during momentum is much higher than 8-10%.

That would then mean that Momentum is giving a 40-50% damage reduction on top of the 8-10% reduction over all? That seems a bit extreme if that is intentional.

 

[srmalloy]

14 hours ago, Moodz85 said:

Hey srmalloy. All testing was done against the identical mobs the previous numbers were taken against. Same build, same farm, Identical circumstances.

That wasn't clear in the OP, and part of debugging a problem is to ensure that all possible extraneous influences are eliminated.

[Bopper]

Comparing the powers (not counting crits, but counting DoTs) the following drop off in damage during momentum are:

Percentages: New Momentum Damage / Old Momentum Damage

Defensive Sweep: 77.0%

Crushing Blow: 73.2%
Titan Sweep: 73.0%

Follow Through: 80.8%

Rend Armor: 71.0%

Whirling Smash: 76.0%

Arc of Destruction: 58.7%

 

If you see anything that is different than what I posted, detail what is different and/or how it is different.

[Moodz85]

I'm not sure of the percentages while momentum is up. I'm just reporting the drop off in damage that I've seen since the patch. If it was intentional that my hits dropped from 350+ with a certain ability (Titan Sweep against 54+ mobs) to 103, then that change is much more substantial than the 8-10% depicts. Unfortunately I have no pre damage log as I did not think I would need them only getting a supposed 8-10% nerf. In game experience is stating otherwise. Not sure where to go from here as it seems we're at a pass. I did what I can to inform of the substantial drop, not sure what more I can do being that I dont have pre patch combat logs. I understand what it written on paper, I'm simply stating those numbers aren't transitioning to the in game values. 

[Bopper]

11 minutes ago, Moodz85 said:

I'm not sure of the percentages while momentum is up. I'm just reporting the drop off in damage that I've seen since the patch. If it was intentional that my hits dropped from 350+ with a certain ability (Titan Sweep against 54+ mobs) to 103, then that change is much more substantial than the 8-10% depicts. Unfortunately I have no pre damage log as I did not think I would need them only getting a supposed 8-10% nerf. In game experience is stating otherwise. Not sure where to go from here as it seems we're at a pass. I did what I can to inform of the substantial drop, not sure what more I can do being that I dont have pre patch combat logs. I understand what it written on paper, I'm simply stating those numbers aren't transitioning to the in game values. 

Got screenshots with power analyzer? Can you tell us your slotting? What you're hitting? What level of target you're hitting?

 

It's hard to find root cause when all I have to go off of is what you used to see versus what you see now. There are too many variables that can explain things. If you can provide more details I can find out if what you're seeing is correct or not. 

 

As for the example you did mention. What kind of level 54 mobs? Are they +4, +3, +2, or +1 (I don't know if you are in normal content or incarnate content and I don't know how you slotted). Also, do you know the resistance of the mobs, do you know your damage buffs, etc? 

If you are truly getting Titan Sweep doing less than 1/3rd of the damage you use to do, there is a bug. But we won't know if there's a bug until there are more details provided.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Bopper

[Moodz85]

I mentioned 54 on a couple different occasions. I do not know the internal resistances of the mobs I created on my farm, but damage numbers were based off the same identical mobs. No variances. My slotting hasn't changed pre patch to post patch so I dont know that is neccessary. These were pulled with a 43% innate damage boost to my character due to slotting. Nothing is different for these numbers and statistics, besides the end totals of my damage. Yes I am 50+1. Sorry I'm at work so I can't really provide more than what I've mentioned throughout this thread. 

[Bopper]

8 minutes ago, Moodz85 said:

I mentioned 54 on a couple different occasions. I do not know the internal resistances of the mobs I created on my farm, but damage numbers were based off the same identical mobs. No variances. My slotting hasn't changed pre patch to post patch so I dont know that is neccessary. These were pulled with a 43% innate damage boost to my character due to slotting. Nothing is different for these numbers and statistics, besides the end totals of my damage. Yes I am 50+1. Sorry I'm at work so I can't really provide more than what I've mentioned throughout this thread. 

Can you tell me if it's incarnate content or not? There's a major difference between fighting a +1 mob (90% damage when you are 50+3 in incarnate content) and a +3 mob (65% damage when you are 50+1 in non-incarnate content). 

 

It is possible you are remembering 350 in incarnate content, then have a 73% of what you used to do also getting reduced by 65/90 to look like 53% in normal content. But yeah, it would be best to wait for you to provide screenshots and combat logs with a power analyzer (so you can see their final damage resistance) and your damage bonus at the time (which you'll need to turn power analyzer off for).

Edited December 1, 2020 by Bopper

[Moodz85]

Ive never done incarnate content, always just been 50+1 normal ae farm type stuff

[Bopper]

16 minutes ago, Moodz85 said:

Ive never done incarnate content, always just been 50+1 normal ae farm type stuff

Good to know. I took my 50+1 scrapper to PI and AE, testing against level 50 Bosses and my damage was the same for both (so no AE issue) and the damage matched what I expected (enhancements and bonuses provided). I am not sure what you used to see but I am very curious about you seeing 103 damage against AE level 54 creatures. Base damage of Fast Titan Sweep is 65.24. With +3, that dampens it to 65% damage, or 42.406. To do 103 damage (without resistance debuffs) would require +143% damage. You probably have 120% from alpha and enhancements, so getting another 23% should be no problem. So I would expect you to see 103 if you have no other buffs going and no resistance debuffs. If you're farming, you're probably not doing that as you're eating reds and using debuffs. So I'll be curious what your screenshots/power analyzer/combat logs show later. So far, things are working as intended for me. We'll never know if Titan Sweep was bugged before this, though. I doubt it though, I see nothing in the power info that suggests it would be.

[Moodz85]

Ok so this is gonna take a while so I'm gonna break this down with the key abilities that use. Although I'm not sure how much help it will be. the numbers will be pre i27. No momentum, just straight damage for each individual ability (except for Whirling Smash because it requires momentum) to help with calculations, I will provide the damage of said with my fully slotted build to give your a baseline of each abilities damage after fully slotting. Giving the 8-10% damage reduction given in the patch we will go with the higher end for the sake of testing. so 10% damage reduction for each skill.

 

Base Defensive Sweep:  95.78

Fully slotted: 222.5

Fully slotted w/ 10% damage reduction:  200.25

Fully slotted w/ 10% damage reduction against lvl 54 (65%): 130.16

Fully slotted i27 damage without momentum: 65 (57 w/ momentum)

 

Base Titan Sweep: 187

Fully slotted: 450.5

Fully slotted w/ 10% damage reduction: 405.45

Fully slotted w/ 10% damage reduction against lvl 54 (65%): 263.5425

Fully slotted i27 damage without momentum: 130 (103 w/ momentum

 

Base Whirling Smash: 92.82

Fully slotted: 244.6

Fully slotted w/ 10% damage reduction: 220.14

Fully slotted w/ 10% damage reduction against lvl 54 (65%): 143.091

Fully slotted i27 damage w/ momentum: 105

 

Base Arc of Destruction: 186.8

Fully slotted; 443.9

Fully slotted w/ 10% damage reduction: 399.51

Fully slotted w/ 10% damage reduction against lvl 54 (65%): 259.68

Fully slotted i27 damage without momentum: 197 (154 w/ momentum)

 

The numbers here are based off testing I just completed. With Momentum now acting as a debuff for your damage, and at least for me, having momentum up 90% percent of the fight, it is a very significant blow to overall performance. all damage was done with no reds popped and my slotted damage bonus is 47.00%

 

 

 

[Bopper]

19 minutes ago, Moodz85 said:

Base Titan Sweep: 187

Let me guess...you're getting your numbers from Mids, not the game. The base damage in i26 for Titan Sweep was 89.4, not 187. My guess is you have Mids open and you're seeing the critical hit effect being applied.

[Moodz85]

yes i did notice that, sorry went to dinner and didn't have time to adjust it accordingly. Even so, you can see then numbers are down a lot across the board, and being that you can't turn crit off in game, kinda gives you an idea on the kinda drops that are being seen in comparison.

 

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Moodz85 said:

yes i did notice that, sorry went to dinner and didn't have time to adjust it accordingly. Even so, you can see then numbers are down a lot across the board, and being that you can't turn crit off in game, kinda gives you an idea on the kinda drops that are being seen in comparison.

 

Yes, the slow version will be about 8-10% less than the old version while the fast version will be the numbers I provided earlier (20-30% less, mostly)

[macskull]

I don't know where you're getting your base numbers from. Here's a comparison of pre-I27 base numbers (left) with the current non-momentum numbers (right), both using Scrapper numbers.

• Defensive Sweep: 45.61/41.82 (91.69% of previous damage)
• Crushing Blow: 112.86/102.60 (90.91% of previous damage)
• Titan Sweep: 89.40/81.97 (91.69% of previous damage)
• Follow Through: 134.88 (plus 4*6.26 DoT for a total of 159.92)/122.62 (90.91% of previous damage excluding DoT, 76.68% of previous damage including DoT)
• Rend Armor: 200.95/182.68 (90.91% of previous damage)
• Whirling Smash: 71.95 (plus 4*6.26 DoT for a total of 96.99)/65.06 (90.42% of previous damage excluding DoT, 67.08% of previous damage including DoT)
• Arc of Destruction: 162.41/122.11 (75.19% of previous damage)

The reason Arc of Destruction's non-momentum base damage is so much lower than the others is because its recharge time was lowered to 16s from 20s and as such got another damage reduction on top of the ~10% that had been taken off the top.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by macskull

[Moodz85]

6 minutes ago, macskull said:

I don't know where you're getting your base numbers from. Here's a comparison of pre-I27 base numbers (left) with the current non-momentum numbers (right), both using Scrapper numbers.

• Defensive Sweep: 45.61/41.82 (91.69% of previous damage)
• Crushing Blow: 112.86/102.60 (90.91% of previous damage)
• Titan Sweep: 89.40/81.97 (91.69% of previous damage)
• Follow Through: 134.88 (plus 4*6.26 DoT for a total of 159.92)/122.62 (90.91% of previous damage excluding DoT, 76.68% of previous damage including DoT)
• Rend Armor: 200.95/182.68 (90.91% of previous damage)
• Whirling Smash: 71.95 (plus 4*6.26 DoT for a total of 96.99)/65.06 (90.42% of previous damage excluding DoT, 67.08% of previous damage including DoT)
• Arc of Destruction: 162.41/122.11 (75.19% of previous damage)

The reason Arc of Destruction's non-momentum base damage is so much lower than the others is because its recharge time was lowered from 16s to 20s and as such got another damage reduction on top of the ~10% that had been taken off the top.

 

 

But based off of what you posted, and comparing statistical numbers, that is a substantial drop in damage. not just a simple 8/10%. I kinda feel like im a broken record now, but I guess nothing will be done. Tried to give you some numbers to go off of (although I know they were off due to crit being implemented.) Time to hang up the TW scrapper as he severely under performs the other specs now. Sorry for wasting all of your time.

[Bopper]

3 minutes ago, Moodz85 said:

But based off of what you posted, and comparing statistical numbers, that is a substantial drop in damage. not just a simple 8/10%. I kinda feel like im a broken record now, but I guess nothing will be done. Tried to give you some numbers to go off of (although I know they were off due to crit being implemented.) Time to hang up the TW scrapper as he severely under performs the other specs now. Sorry for wasting all of your time.

You were quoting bad numbers earlier. Now that we know you were grabbing numbers from Mids we can show that everything is working as intended. All attacks had their initial/slow damage reduced by about 10% (like they said in the patch notes) and the momentum attacks have reduced cooldowns and their damage scales with it per the design formula (also mentioned in the patch notes).

Edited December 2, 2020 by Bopper

[Moodz85]

2 minutes ago, Bopper said:

You were quoting bad numbers earlier. Now that we know you were grabbing numbers from Mids we can show that everything is working as intended. All attacks had their initial/slow damage reduced by about 10% (like they said in the patch notes) and the momentum attacks have reduced coildowns amd their damage scales with it per the design formula (also mentioned in the patch notes).

as stated, it was an intentional 40-50% reduction in overall damage, not 10. Glad we clarified. Nerf working as intended. Thanks. Clearly I'm not the only one that sees the huge reduction in overall damage, crit not turned off or not. I guess so.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Moodz85

[Bopper]

1 minute ago, Moodz85 said:

as stated, it was an intentional 40-50% reduction in overall damage, not 10. Glad we clarified. Nerf working as intended. Thanks.

The only thing that has a 40% reduction is Arc of Destruction (Fast). Where are you coming up with 40-50%? The numbers I provided earlier were all between 20-30% for Momentum attacks

Edited December 2, 2020 by Bopper

[Moodz85]

20 and 30 for momentum, plus 10 overall = 30-40, or is that not simple math either?