My latest idea for a Melee/Buff AT and Why It Won't Work

[Wavicle]

The basic idea I have is to take Scrapper primaries (with a lower melee modifier than Scrappers) and give them Corruptor secondaries (with similar buff numbers).

I would replace Confront with "Power Placate", which would be Placate and Power Boost rolled into one. Probably lower numbers than the original Power Boosts, but on a faster timer.

HERE'S THE TRICKY PART

 

Buff secondaries would have to be almost completely redesigned. I would remove ALMOST ALL powers that do not work on the caster. With some sets this is a very small change. With some it's an enormous change requiring wholesale redesign and rebalance of the sets.

Slight changes to those sets that have few or no powers that can't be used solo, and the design of an inherent would follow, that's actually the easy part.

It's a neat idea, but I don't think the amount of work necessary is worth it given what is really feasible for our (super awesome) volunteer dev team.

[EmmySky]

Make the inherent turn ally only powers to caster included powers?

[CrudeVileTerror]

I still contend that if you do it as Support Primary and Melee Secondary that it will take minimal changes to either type of Set to make the Archetype work.  An AoE Placate is definitely a solid choice to replace the likes of Confront/Taunt/Placate, which procs some kind of bonus.

It comes down to the Inherent, and making sure it delivers on compelling the player to get the most rewarding gameplay.  Honestly, a Support/Melee would have been the better candidate for Defender's Vigilance, but I think we can extrapolate from there to get some ideas flowing.

 

But let's take a quick review of all the Support Primaries, and see how they'd behave with Support/Melee.

 

Traps  -  Web Grenade needs looking at regardless, if the opinions of forumites are to be believed.  Maybe if it reduced To-Hit on the affected target?  In any event, Caltrops makes a good starter, offering a means to either deal damage or create area denial.  Very helpful for a character like this.

And with Acid Mortar, Poison Trap, Triage Beacon, Time Bomb, and Trip Mine, the Traps Set is already well primed toward melee gameplay.

 

Poison  -  Alkaloid, like Traps' Web Grenade, is problematic regardless of being in melee or at range.  And like Web Grenade, isn't an argument against Support/Melee.  Envenom is damned solid now that it's got the minor AoE effect to it.

Poison Trap and Venomous Gas are already predisposed to melee gameplay, and nothing else becoming invalid by using it in melee, although Noxious Breath could use a little tweak to its Cone to make it more melee-friendly.

 

Empathy  -  Healing Aura is PBAoE and affects the caster, so it's in a decent position to start.  Aid Other is a valid choice for helping a teammate, but doesn't offer anything to a melee character.  But it doesn't offer anything to a ranged character either, so that's a wash.

With the two Aura Powers also being PBAoE, Empathy may not be ideal, but it's not completely helpless in melee.

 

Kinetics  -  The ideal Set, it's already very melee-friendly.  Transfusion and Siphon Power are both solid Tier starters.  

Repel would probably benefit from being tweaked in to a no Damage PBAoE Knockdown Click with a moderate cooldown; a "whoops, too much aggro" escape Power.  Everything else is either functional as-is or already a solid benefit to playing in melee.

 

Dark Miasma  -  Twilight Grasp is a damned excellent Heal, and Tar Patch would be a big benefit to anyone.

In addition to that, Shadow Fall is super and would probably make for a strong "signature" for the Set in melee.  The rest of the Set doesn't really play differently in melee, with the exclusion of Fearsome Stare.  But then we might take the Darkness Affinity route and work with that.

Force Field  -  This is probably the most tricky Set to just pick up and drop off in the new Archetype, but it's also showing its age in conventional ranged support play as it is.  So we can either take the Personal Force Field route or the Force Bolt route here.  Personal Force Field might be too powerful to offer the Archetype as a Tier 1 pick, unless we put it on an auto-shut off timer maybe.  Force Bolt (and all the Knockback Powers) would benefit from being changed to Knockdown.

Beyond that, Force Bubble's Repel effect would also be deeply problematic, so I'd opt to just remove that aspect of the Power, or replace it entirely with something more melee-flavoured.  The PBAoE nature of Dispersion Bubble is a solid melee-friendly Power, but that's about all we can really write home about here.

Cold Domination  -  Like Poison, Cold Domination starts with an ally-only Power in Ice Shield, and an enemy-debuff Power in Infrigidate.  I might suggest giving Infrigidate the AoE treatment which Envenom received to improve viability.

Like Dark Miasma, Cold Domination has a PBAoE stealth/Defense Toggle in the form of Arctic Fog.  Beyond that, we're looking at some really solid Debuff Powers that help solidify the Support/Melee gameplay.

Pain Domination  -  The Better-Empathy-Than-Empathy is even BETTER as the Melee-Empathy.  While Nullify Pain and Soothe aren't really any different, we do see more benefits later on in the Set.

Share Pain grants the Support a Damage Buff; handy!  World of Pain and Anguishing Cry are primed for melee already.  Soothing Aura is quite solid as well.

Sonic Resonance  -  Sonic Siphon needs . . . something, but that's regardless of being cast at range or in melee.  And like Cold Domination and Force Field before it, Sonic Resonance's Sonic Barrier falls in to the "ally shield" category.

Much like Force Field, Sonic Resonance runs in to some trouble with the Knockback component of Sonic Repulsion . . . but then how much play does that Power see for ranged Supports to begin with?  On the flipside, Disruption Field and Liquefy would make great additions to a meleeist.

Storm Summoning  -  Ok.   Forget about Force Field.  THIS is the most tricky Set to make melee-friendly . . . but it's also SO FLAVOURFUL that it's worth it, as far as I'm concerned.  O2 Boost is another ally-only Power, and Gale just isn't melee-friendly at all.  Maybe if it were Knockdown?

But then we've got Powers like Snow Storm, Steamy Mist, Freezing Rain, Thunder Clap, and Lightning Storm:  All of these are ideal for melee!  We'd just need to remove the Repel from Hurricane and probably tone down the -To-Hit Debuff in it.  But I think it's worth it to make this Set work.  Imagine the gameplay and the character concepts!  Much worth!

Nature Affinity  -  I admit, I've not played this set much.  We might need to make Regrowth a PBAoE for the meleeist, but Corrosive Enzymes seems pretty solid as-is.

With Wild Growth, Wild Bastion, Entangling Aura, and Overgrowth, we're again looking at a solid melee Set.

Time Manipulation  -  Starting with a PBAoE Heal-Over-Time and a specialized enemy-debuff Power, this Set is sitting in the same "works fine" territory as most of the Support Sets.

Time's Junction elevates us in the melee department early on, and Farsight and Chrono Shift maintain things later on.  As usual, nothing in this Set is particularly detrimental to melee play.

Thermal Radiation  -  A PBAoE Heal and an ally-shield?  Doesn't sound too far off from the majority of the other Sets.  Something to help yourself and any nearby teammates, and something to help only your teammates.  It's a typical pattern.

This Set, however, is pretty much an all-ranged Support Set.  It's probably the only one, though, isn't it?  And really, just because a Power works at range doesn't mean that it's invalid in melee.  Honestly, the Set could use something to make it a little more interesting in melee, sure . . . but it's not necessary.

Radiation Emission  -  PBAoE Heal and an AoE Toggle Debuff.  Sounds like a good, winning combination for starter Powers for melee to me!

And then we get Accelerate Metabolism, Choking Cloud, Fallout, and EM Pulse.  This is another Set that's already primed for melee!

Electrical Affinity  -  Our newest addition to the Homecoming Support Set roster, this Set gives us a chaining (AoE) Heal, and a single-target enemy-debuff.  We've been through this song and dance before; they're good enough in melee!

Faraday Cage is a big boon early on, and nothing else in the Set is particularly problematic for melee.  We might want to do something with the Sentinel, but I'm not sure what off the top of my head.

 

 

 

 . . . what?

I'm forgetting a Set?

Naaaaah . . . 

[CrudeVileTerror]

Alright.  

Fine.

 

 

Trick Arrow.

 

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah.   Ok, so Thermal Radiation isn't the "only ranged" Set, and maybe Sonic Resonance and Force Fields have someone else to look down on as far as melee-friendly Sets are concerned.

 

But hear me out . . . 

 

Trick Arrow, see?   Trick Arrow got buffed recently.

And while the animation times would be a pain in the rear for melee, there's something to be said about softening up your enemies at range with a barrage of various arrows, and then running in and bashing 'em with your Broad Sword or Staff!

 

See?   A Support/Melee doesn't -need- to always BE in melee.

They get the flexibility to position themselves in and out!

 

And to that end, that's probably how we want to enhance the PBAoE Placate Power:

Grants 5 seconds of Control Protection, a Movement Speed Buff, and Extreme Resistance to Slows for about 10 seconds.

Name it:  "FLEE!"

 

Suddenly you have an Archetype who's all about moving around the battlefield, providing Support where necessary, and then getting in to the thick of things to lay down the smacks when the time is right!

 

The Archetype basically writes itself!

We don't need massive rewrites of the Support Powers.

We don't need rewrites for the Melee Powers.

We just need a few little tweaks, a solid Inherent, a bitchin' Placate Power, and we are good to go!

[Biff Pow]

A Melee/Support AT would really only need one power change, maybe the T1 Secondary power, that gives some personal defense. The obvious example would be changing Personal Force Field to a regular +DEF power. Status protection could come from the AT's inherent power, maybe attacks provide a few seconds of protection.

[Vanden]

35 minutes ago, EmmySky said:

Make the inherent turn ally only powers to caster included powers?

That's not exactly a solution. You can't just write a power that somehow knows what to change about other powers, you'd still have to code the new behavior you want those powers to have, which is no more or less work than creating an entirely new power.

Edited December 28, 2020 by Vanden

[macskull]

Honestly, the powersets for the Guardian AT that's floating around on other servers are exactly what a melee-ish/support-ish AT should be. Basically tweaked Dominator primaries with secondaries that combine support powers and armor powers. As an example you might find a secondary like this:

• Frost Armor Toggle: Self +Def(Smash, Lethal), +Res(Cold, DeBuff DEF)
• Infrigidate Ranged Foe -Speed, -Recharge, -DEF, -DMG (Fire)
• Ice Pack PBAoE Team Heal, +Max HP, Res(Toxic)
• Wet Ice Toggle: Self +DEF(All but Psionics), +Res(Cold, Disorient, Immobilize, Hold, Sleep, Slow, Knockback, DeBuff DEF)
• Chilling Embrace Toggle: PBAoE, Foe -Recharge, -Speed, -DMG
• Arctic Fog Toggle: PBAoE, Team Stealth, +DEF, +Res(Fire, Cold, Energy, Slow)
• Glacial Armor Toggle: Self +DEF(Energy, Negative), Res (Cold, DeBuff DEF), +Perception
• Sleet Ranged (Location AoE), Minor DoT(Cold), Foe -Speed, -Recharge, -DEF, -Res (All), Knockdown
• Heat Loss Ranged (Foe AoE), Foe -RES, -END, Slow; Team +END, +Recovery

[Wavicle]

Just now, macskull said:

Honestly, the powersets for the Guardian AT that's floating around on other servers are exactly what a melee-ish/support-ish AT should be. Basically tweaked Dominator primaries with secondaries that combine support powers and armor powers. As an example you might find a secondary like this:

• Frost Armor Toggle: Self +Def(Smash, Lethal), +Res(Cold, DeBuff DEF)
• Infrigidate Ranged Foe -Speed, -Recharge, -DEF, -DMG (Fire)
• Ice Pack PBAoE Team Heal, +Max HP, Res(Toxic)
• Wet Ice Toggle: Self +DEF(All but Psionics), +Res(Cold, Disorient, Immobilize, Hold, Sleep, Slow, Knockback, DeBuff DEF)
• Chilling Embrace Toggle: PBAoE, Foe -Recharge, -Speed, -DMG
• Arctic Fog Toggle: PBAoE, Team Stealth, +DEF, +Res(Fire, Cold, Energy, Slow)
• Glacial Armor Toggle: Self +DEF(Energy, Negative), Res (Cold, DeBuff DEF), +Perception
• Sleet Ranged (Location AoE), Minor DoT(Cold), Foe -Speed, -Recharge, -DEF, -Res (All), Knockdown
• Heat Loss Ranged (Foe AoE), Foe -RES, -END, Slow; Team +END, +Recovery

I like the armor combined with buff, but I want straight melee sets. Otherwise what’s the point?

[CrudeVileTerror]

Given the speed at which Homecoming Development moves due to the desire to thoroughly test things and not rock too many boats, I believe making a new Archetype which is essentially a Frankenstein's monster of four existing Sets will be a non-starter for feasibility.  It's another reason I propose the Support/Melee; lower overhead for development.  Balancing around a few changes will be an easier and less time consuming process than having to iterate the design of entirely new Sets.

[Wavicle]

Just now, CrudeVileTerror said:

Given the speed at which Homecoming Development moves due to the desire to thoroughly test things and not rock too many boats, I believe making a new Archetype which is essentially a Frankenstein's monster of four existing Sets will be a non-starter for feasibility.  It's another reason I propose the Support/Melee; lower overhead for development.  Balancing around a few changes will be an easier and less time consuming process than having to iterate the design of entirely new Sets.

Which is exactly why I think it just isn’t going to work.

[Wavicle]

imo the buff sets are rich enough in their play that the inherent needn't be very complex.

the problem is that the degree to which the buff sets help the caster varies a LOT, as does the WAYS in which it helps the caster.

For example, Kinetics, imo, would NOT be a very good set for this because you'd be too prone to instant death. Some manner of actually avoiding damage will be necessary. But that is not true of, say, Radiation. The things that are missing vary WIDELY from set to set, so making an inherent fix all their issues isn't going to work. The sets will have to be redesigned and rebalanced.

I think it's just not going to happen, it's too much.

[Blastit]

If you do make a melee support AT, you don't actually have to port every single support set to it anyway.

[Gulbasaur]

11 hours ago, Wavicle said:

The basic idea I have is to take Scrapper primaries (with a lower melee modifier than Scrappers) and give them Corruptor secondaries (with similar buff numbers).

I'd love to see Dominator secondaries (mix of range and melee) as the primary and a mishmash of corruptor secondaries and armourset stuff - more like the epic archetypes than the current ones. 

 

Give me martial assault's shuriken and kicks with an unholy combination of kinetics and energy armour and I'd be very pleased indeed. 

 

Edit: I've just done a google and I could literally roll this on Rebirth. Hmm...

Edited December 28, 2020 by Gulbasaur

[mcdoogss]

1 hour ago, Gulbasaur said:

I'd love to see Dominator secondaries (mix of range and melee) as the primary and a mishmash of corruptor secondaries and armourset stuff - more like the epic archetypes than the current ones. 

That's what I thought immediately when I saw 'melee buff AT': "new epic ATs?"  This definitely fits the mold of VEATs in particular with a wider range of primary/secondary power choices than the 18 that non-epic ATs have available.  A melee AT has to have enough defenses to survive in melee and enough attacks to be an active particpant don't they?  So either of the primary or secondary (or both) has to do double duty with support capabilities + one or the other , or there needs to be more than 18 powers to choose from.

Edited December 28, 2020 by mcdoogss

[Coyote]

Why not leave the Support sets alone, and create a new Melee/Armor set? Think of it like a Blaster's Manipulation set that has melee attacks, with 2-3 powers changed to defensive toggles. With one power taken up with Sustain, that still leaves 5-6 melee attacks, enough to run a limited melee character (especially if you supplement with the Fighting Pool). I think it would be a lot easier to balance this out.

 

Think of it more like changing a Defender's blast set to a melee-oriented Defender, with melee/armor replacing blasts/mez.

[nihilii]

12 hours ago, EmmySky said:

Make the inherent turn ally only powers to caster included powers?

Everyone then plays melee/empathy and is a juggernaut of pain and death.

I would be OK with that outcome.

[johnnysc]

3 hours ago, Coyote said:

Why not leave the Support sets alone, and create a new Melee/Armor set? Think of it like a Blaster's Manipulation set that has melee attacks, with 2-3 powers changed to defensive toggles. With one power taken up with Sustain, that still leaves 5-6 melee attacks, enough to run a limited melee character (especially if you supplement with the Fighting Pool). I think it would be a lot easier to balance this out.

 

Think of it more like changing a Defender's blast set to a melee-oriented Defender, with melee/armor replacing blasts/mez.

I like this and wish Sentinels had their secondary designed this way.

[ForeverLaxx]

21 hours ago, macskull said:

Honestly, the powersets for the Guardian AT that's floating around on other servers are exactly what a melee-ish/support-ish AT should be. Basically tweaked Dominator primaries with secondaries that combine support powers and armor powers. As an example you might find a secondary like this:

• Frost Armor Toggle: Self +Def(Smash, Lethal), +Res(Cold, DeBuff DEF)
• Infrigidate Ranged Foe -Speed, -Recharge, -DEF, -DMG (Fire)
• Ice Pack PBAoE Team Heal, +Max HP, Res(Toxic)
• Wet Ice Toggle: Self +DEF(All but Psionics), +Res(Cold, Disorient, Immobilize, Hold, Sleep, Slow, Knockback, DeBuff DEF)
• Chilling Embrace Toggle: PBAoE, Foe -Recharge, -Speed, -DMG
• Arctic Fog Toggle: PBAoE, Team Stealth, +DEF, +Res(Fire, Cold, Energy, Slow)
• Glacial Armor Toggle: Self +DEF(Energy, Negative), Res (Cold, DeBuff DEF), +Perception
• Sleet Ranged (Location AoE), Minor DoT(Cold), Foe -Speed, -Recharge, -DEF, -Res (All), Knockdown
• Heat Loss Ranged (Foe AoE), Foe -RES, -END, Slow; Team +END, +Recovery

You said "tweaked Dominator Primaries" here and I assume you meant to say Secondaries, as Dominator Primaries are just control powers and not "damage" powers. Presuming you meant the Dominator Secondaries (the attacks), I have to wonder if this would end up the same boat as the Sentinel as having no real identity, or if it would shove Scrappers aside due to the debuffs providing more DPS potential than Scrapper Criticals. Scrappers are already fighting with Stalkers one the single target front and I wouldn't be surprised if something like this would end up pushing them from the AoE and potentially single target front too.

 

I get that something being in melee probably needs some kind of personal defense, but cutting out all the "bad" powers in an armor set and replacing them with powerful debuffs just seems like you're trying to make a better Scrapper.

[Completist]

23 hours ago, Wavicle said:

The basic idea I have is to take Scrapper primaries (with a lower melee modifier than Scrappers) and give them Corruptor secondaries (with similar buff numbers).

I would replace Confront with "Power Placate", which would be Placate and Power Boost rolled into one. Probably lower numbers than the original Power Boosts, but on a faster timer.

HERE'S THE TRICKY PART

 

Buff secondaries would have to be almost completely redesigned. I would remove ALMOST ALL powers that do not work on the caster. With some sets this is a very small change. With some it's an enormous change requiring wholesale redesign and rebalance of the sets.

You're right that it would take a lot of work to overhauling the Support sets to eliminate "team-only powers". But why is that necessary? Consider how crucial it is to your vision that Melee pairs with Support in a different way than it does Ranged/Control/Pets.

 

You should start with a mission statement. What is your goal in designing a new AT? What is your intended player experience or party role? Because as described it's a lone-wolf kickpuncher with placate and soft control. What's the one thing this AT will be best at? What playstyle is currently missing or undersupported that you want to give players? 

Quote

Slight changes to those sets that have few or no powers that can't be used solo, and the design of an inherent would follow, that's actually the easy part.

Start by designing the Inherent! (Rambling Sentinel criticism goes here.) You don't want to end up with an AT that feels unfinished or unnecessary. Again, it's important to determine whether you are designing a squishy Skirmisher who darts around in combat, a brave Guardian that leads his allies into battle, or a wary Stalwart that supports the front lines and deals with any stragglers, etc.

 

If your goal is Punching and Support, make the AT about Punching and Support. It probably isn't a good idea to replace Confront--situationally weak, but nonetheless a Punching/Support power--with a Control/Defense Power Boost + Placate ... Either that power steps on many other AT's toes or you have to weaken it to nothingness. 

 

 

 

 

[Heraclea]

I've said it before and will here too; if you want to play a support role in melee you roll a tanker, it's what we do.  Tanking is all about the soft control of taunt and taunt auras for starters. At least some melee attack sets are rich in control (think Ice Melee, there are others) and debuffs (Dark Melee, and there are others) that at least ought to count as support.  The same is true of some armor sets, inc. Ice, Dark, and Radiation.  The fact that no one plays up these aspects of the AT and treats Tankers as a slightly tougher but low damage version of Brutes is an indication of how relatively weak support is generally in the steamroller era. 

[DougGraves]

I don't understand why you would redo corruptor secondaries.  If they work for corruptors why would they not work for melees?  Melees just do more damage with their attacks.

 

I would make the buff/debuff the primaries and the melee damage the secondaries.  Being melee damage they would do good damage anyway.

 

Replacing confront makes sense.  You could just give them all a self heal instead.  Or a pbaoe heal which would make them good for the buff/debuff sets that don't have a heal.

[Gulbasaur]

6 hours ago, Completist said:

Start by designing the Inherent! (Rambling Sentinel criticism goes here.)

Several (most?) of the hero inherents weren't in the game at launch and it shows. I remember when the controller and defender ones were added in - the controller one was a game changer (and it still needs a look at because it ignored Fear and Confuse). The defender one was crap then and is pretty meek now.

 

The CoV ones mostly make much more sense, even if I still think blasters and brutes should have been the other way rounds.

 

The exception to this is actually in the epics, where Kheldians get some quite significant tankiness (remember, this was before IO sets) for teaming and VEATs get... a tiny bit more recovery and regen.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Gulbasaur

[Blastit]

6 hours ago, Heraclea said:

I've said it before and will here too; if you want to play a support role in melee you roll a tanker, it's what we do.  Tanking is all about the soft control of taunt and taunt auras for starters. At least some melee attack sets are rich in control (think Ice Melee, there are others) and debuffs (Dark Melee, and there are others) that at least ought to count as support.  The same is true of some armor sets, inc. Ice, Dark, and Radiation.  The fact that no one plays up these aspects of the AT and treats Tankers as a slightly tougher but low damage version of Brutes is an indication of how relatively weak support is generally in the steamroller era. 

⛈️ ⚠️ ⁉️ Obviously we have to massively nerf IO sets and incarnates in order to have any design space left at all.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Blastit

[Shred Monkey]

Reading this makes me want to pull out that Kin/DP defender I started a while back with the intention of playing in melee/pbaoe range most of the time.  Basically the same playstyle, but with bigger AoEs.

[macskull]

16 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

You said "tweaked Dominator Primaries" here and I assume you meant to say Secondaries, as Dominator Primaries are just control powers and not "damage" powers. Presuming you meant the Dominator Secondaries (the attacks), I have to wonder if this would end up the same boat as the Sentinel as having no real identity, or if it would shove Scrappers aside due to the debuffs providing more DPS potential than Scrapper Criticals. Scrappers are already fighting with Stalkers one the single target front and I wouldn't be surprised if something like this would end up pushing them from the AoE and potentially single target front too.

 

I get that something being in melee probably needs some kind of personal defense, but cutting out all the "bad" powers in an armor set and replacing them with powerful debuffs just seems like you're trying to make a better Scrapper.

I did mean Dominator secondaries, yes. Addressing the rest of your post:

• IMO the reason Scrappers and Stalkers are as competitive as they are is because of the ATO procs for both ATs - they're the only ATs where the ATO procs completely change the way the AT plays, especially for Stalkers. I think the melee ATs are, overall, in a good place right now because there's a roughly inverse correlation between damage output and survivability (Tankers->Brutes->Scrappers->Stalkers on the survivability scale, opposite on the damage scale). Scrappers and Stalkers still have enough of a playstyle difference where each AT presents its own unique way to play, even if you pick the same powersets. It's also sort of like the Defender/Corruptor debate but I'd argue those are far more similar than Scrappers vs Stalkers. Some builds work better on one AT or the other and that's fine.
• The reason Sentinels seem to have no real identity in the game right now is because they're damage dealers that... are bad at dealing damage. Sure, they have the same ranged damage modifier as Dominators, but they suffer from gimped versions of ranged sets and a next-to-useless inherent. The existence of Blasters makes Sentinels pretty much irrelevant but that's only because Sentinels don't offer anything significant outside of minor debuffs in their t1/t2 attacks and the occasional single-target debuff from Offensive Opportunity.
• Guardians at least would have a unique playstyle and even if they weren't the most-damaging member of a team would still offer consistently available buffs and debuffs to act as a force multiplier.