Is it time to buff Hami? How would you?

[Heraclea]

On 1/6/2021 at 4:12 AM, Greycat said:

... is this a thing? Because I just wander in with my characters between 45-50 and join the mob, basically. I don't really *hear* of "Hami builds." (*maybe* the taunting tank?) I could well be unaware of it, but - other than "8 man hami" or something - I don't know of anything in the raid that requires any sort of "build." And to me, that's great, too. I *like* accessible.

I like accessible.  The genius of the game is that any content ought to be clearable with any group of characters.   

 

Hamidon is not quite like that.  There are many required roles that need to be filled one way or another.  I have, for instance, defeated Hami twice on a league with nothing but tankers in it.  This meant doing it the old and costly way of clearing mitos several times.   It also required kludges like swapping your origin powers for the Tazer Dart, because holds are necessary and many tanker attack sets have none.  The right incarnate powers were also key to success; Barrier, which I usually take on tankers, is useless for the raid.  Ageless and Clarion are more helpful.  Yes, there are powersets that work better in Hamidon than others, and if you want your group to succeed you bring those.  The ice/plants blaster I usually bring has been pretty much configured for that purpose.

 

The design of the raid discriminates against ATs and powersets as well.  Masterminds are definitely not optimal for the raid, struggle to keep their pets alive, and turn into weaker versions of defenders.  There are many buff and debuff sets that just don't help.  Many armor sets are at a disadventage too.  This guide has details:

I have tanked Hamidon on Heraclea, but given my druthers I'd rather have one of my radiation tankers, or even a regen brute.

 

If Hamidon were to be changed, I'd want the raid to be more casual, require less catherding, and not require so many specific powers and abilities.   I would support those kinds of changes, but they don't seem to be where you want to take it.

 

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Heraclea said:

 but they don't seem to be where you want to take it.

Again... discussion because of a comment made during a raid. I am not trying to take it anywhere. If I were, this would be down in suggestions with "This is how I think the raid should be changed and why."

 

1 hour ago, Heraclea said:

Yes, there are powersets that work better in Hamidon than others, and if you want your group to succeed you bring those.

See, here's the thing when I read this. I've never seen a call for specific powersets. Just roles. "Melee follow Jack, Control target through Jill, Ranged target through Jamie. Go," basically. Not even a call for debuffing anything, or "we need X incarnate power," other than occasionally mentioning a taunter may not be able to be healed, use regen buffs. And even that's not consistently mentioned. Thus my description of "target targeter, hit F, EOE, 123412341234..." for what raids are like, since that's fairly consistent.

 

Yes, if you do something "outside the box" like the all tanker raid, that would come into play, absolutely... but that's not what I'd call a yardstick for the regular experience.

[Keen]

1 hour ago, Greycat said:

See, here's the thing when I read this. I've never seen a call for specific powersets. Just roles. "Melee follow Jack, Control target through Jill, Ranged target through Jamie. Go," basically. Not even a call for debuffing anything, or "we need X incarnate power," other than occasionally mentioning a taunter may not be able to be healed, use regen buffs. And even that's not consistently mentioned. Thus my description of "target targeter, hit F, EOE, 123412341234..." for what raids are like, since that's fairly consistent.

 

There aren't calls for specific powersets because some key players, usually the targetters and the raid leader, already have it covered. The Hami tank is a good example. They can usually stand by themselves without external buffs because they either 1) use a powerset combo that's favored against Hami or 2) have a Hami-specific build even if their powerset combo is not favored. Without those players, any other tank-type could tank Hami regardless of their powersets, but at the expense of having other players buffing them to keep them alive. This in turn would ask for specific roles (Empaths), but since Hami tanks tend to be self-sufficient, that requirement is not called for. Or pretty much any other.

 

There are other examples. But a number of players do bring Hami-tuned builds to raids to perform better at their discretion. This collective effort improves the raid as a whole and helps allowing the rest of the league bring whatever they like.

 

There are some raids (like the Hamikaze) that make a call for specific builds, mainly DPS. But DPS alone is not enough to defeat Hami while all mitos are up. For those other aspects, a small number of players already have some other aspects covered with their Hami builds. I am usually the only Mastermind in a Hamikaze because my build is 100% Hami-tailored. My gameplan involves using 9 EoEs per round, and as a result, I can completely debuff Hami's ability to be healed by greens (all 6-24 of them), allowing the rest of the league to have their DPS count.

 

More than a raid, I think Hami raids are an event. It's very cool to see ~50 players hanging around and having fun. Being inclusive is a big part of it, and asking for specific powersets would go against that. Even for Hamikazes, most players have some sort of DPS build that they can bring and enjoy the raid. And the players that bring Hami-tuned builds to the raids are also having fun in their own way.

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Keen

[Latex]

I get the feeling players want easier more casual encounters. The same players probably wonder why player retention is a problem and was even a problem back when the game was live.

 

The game has next to no challenge from my experience. I can log on my Kat/Bio Scrapper whom has a finished build and decimate any level of content effortlessly, whenever I join Hami raids my HP doesn't dip below 99% I take a hit and the insane level of stacked incarnate buff, capped DEF and RES, capped DMG, extreme +Rech, it poses no challenge.

 

Even Developers back in the day could not control the Pandoras Box of Set IO's and the gross imbalance it caused, they went from balancing a static powerset diversity to trying to balance characters who had covered up the holes in their powersets innate weaknesses. The lack of challenge in City of Heroes played a part in why it wasn't as popular as NCSoft wanted it to be and I'm of the opposite spectrum, the game needed content purpose-made for T4 Incarnates that have a fully finished IO build, a challenge that may take weeks of execution to successfully defeat like rival MMO's that came out at the same time and are still operational. This isn't 'Make every MMO like X or Y' but rather 'Make CoH have satisfying hurdles to overcome'.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Latex

[golstat2003]

18 minutes ago, Latex said:

I get the feeling players want easier more casual encounters. The same players probably wonder why player retention is a problem and was even a problem back when the game was live.

 

The game has next to no challenge from my experience. I can log on my Kat/Bio Scrapper whom has a finished build and decimate any level of content effortlessly, whenever I join Hami raids my HP doesn't dip below 99% I take a hit and the insane level of stacked incarnate buff, capped DEF and RES, capped DMG, extreme +Rech, it poses no challenge.

 

Even Developers back in the day could not control the Pandoras Box of Set IO's and the gross imbalance it caused, they went from balancing a static powerset diversity to trying to balance characters who had covered up the holes in their powersets innate weaknesses. The lack of challenge in City of Heroes played a part in why it wasn't as popular as NCSoft wanted it to be and I'm of the opposite spectrum, the game needed content purpose-made for T4 Incarnates that have a fully finished IO build, a challenge that may take weeks of execution to successfully defeat like rival MMO's that came out at the same time and are still operational. This isn't 'Make every MMO like X or Y' but rather 'Make CoH have satisfying hurdles to overcome'.

The devs were working on the more challenging content when they had their legs cut out from under them. More challenging content for incarnates takes time. And with the size of the team of VOLUNTEERS we have now, don't expect it to be completed any time soon.

 

And yes, most players would continue to play COH if there was never any harder content added or incarnate level content added.

 

Most players don't give a damn about challenging content.

Edited January 7, 2021 by golstat2003

[Apparition]

43 minutes ago, Latex said:

I get the feeling players want easier more casual encounters. The same players probably wonder why player retention is a problem and was even a problem back when the game was live.

 

The game has next to no challenge from my experience. I can log on my Kat/Bio Scrapper whom has a finished build and decimate any level of content effortlessly, whenever I join Hami raids my HP doesn't dip below 99% I take a hit and the insane level of stacked incarnate buff, capped DEF and RES, capped DMG, extreme +Rech, it poses no challenge.

 

Even Developers back in the day could not control the Pandoras Box of Set IO's and the gross imbalance it caused, they went from balancing a static powerset diversity to trying to balance characters who had covered up the holes in their powersets innate weaknesses. The lack of challenge in City of Heroes played a part in why it wasn't as popular as NCSoft wanted it to be and I'm of the opposite spectrum, the game needed content purpose-made for T4 Incarnates that have a fully finished IO build, a challenge that may take weeks of execution to successfully defeat like rival MMO's that came out at the same time and are still operational. This isn't 'Make every MMO like X or Y' but rather 'Make CoH have satisfying hurdles to overcome'.

 

There's a multitude of reasons why a lot of us that play CoH don't play those other MMOGs.  You just listed one of them.

[Saikochoro]

2 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

The devs were working on the more challenging content when they had their legs cut out from under them. More challenging content for incarnates takes time. And with the size of the team of VOLUNTEERS we have now, don't expect it to be completed any time soon.

 

And yes, most players would continue to play COH if there was never any harder content added or incarnate level content added.

 

Most players don't give a damn about challenging content.

Bolded for emphasis. 
 

There are plenty of ways to make the game more challenging if a player is willing to use the tools already available. 
 

That said, I am sure I am not the only one that enjoys the fact that this game can be easy. I play this game to relax after work and am not looking for it to just become more “work” after work.

[Wavicle]

New, more challenging content, cool. Radically changing existing content, no thank you.

[Grouchybeast]

I would love a Praetorian Hamidon raid.  In Marchand's arc there's a mission where you go back to Praetoria and in the distance you can see the city being ripped up, and it looks amazing.  It could make a great Incarnate-level challenge.

[golstat2003]

4 hours ago, Saikochoro said:

Bolded for emphasis. 
 

There are plenty of ways to make the game more challenging if a player is willing to use the tools already available. 
 

That said, I am sure I am not the only one that enjoys the fact that this game can be easy. I play this game to relax after work and am not looking for it to just become more “work” after work.

For real. When I'm in the mood to grind and play "trinity" like content I hop onto FF14.

 

HERE, I just wanna beat up mobs and look cool while joking with others in chat.

Edited January 8, 2021 by golstat2003

[golstat2003]

4 hours ago, Grouchybeast said:

I would love a Praetorian Hamidon raid.  In Marchand's arc there's a mission where you go back to Praetoria and in the distance you can see the city being ripped up, and it looks amazing.  It could make a great Incarnate-level challenge.

NOW THIS I could get behind. Let the Praetorian one be the "hard" Hamidon. It would fit perfectly with the lore and experience of Goldside play.

[Latex]

5 hours ago, Wavicle said:

New, more challenging content, cool. Radically changing existing content, no thank you.

This is spot on.

Options like this give something for everyone. Options are like costume parts or music taste, we all like different things.

[ivanhedgehog]

On 1/4/2021 at 9:03 PM, Latex said:

Introduce Praetorian Hamidon as a brand new Raid Encounter- this won't upset anyone missing old Hamidon and will bring a new challenge to those that seek it;

 

Praetorian Hamidon

 

Phase One - 100% - 65%

Any deaths during the fight become Mind Controlled. Mind Controlled Players deal massive Psionic AOE Damage to the entire raid and are attackable by other players, they have 300% increased HP it should take ten DPS around 3 seconds to kill them.

Ground based fight in phase 1.

Utilize the technology we seen in the Shivan at the Tutorial. Damage zones that mess you up, 'don't stand here' telegraphs.
Have these boss telegraphs gib anyone that stands in them, pierces all defenses and resistances, certain death. These telegraphs need to be clearly marked and somewhat easily avoided unless you are not paying attention.

The first Tank AT that uses Taunt becomes the Main Tank.

Boss targets Main Tank, hits tanks for 25% HP every 2 seconds, flat damage, no RES or DEF helps, this means Healers, specifically multiple Empaths are extremely valuable.

This hit puts a stacking Debuff on the Main Tank, if MT takes 5 stacks consecutively he dies and becomes Mind Controlled. MC'd tanks are especially dangerous due to the +300% HP, this is by design to deter Brute stacking for DPS.

Off Tank will be designated by the Second Tank AT to use Taunt on the boss.

Boss has a massive HP Pool so 48 players can't just DPS burn through this.

 

Phase Two - 65% - 25%

Hamidon splits into two bosses, It's the exact same mechanics as Phase One, but will require an organized split of players including two more Tanks and dedicated Healers and DPS.

The catch here is that one of the Hamidon is now aerial, static, and the telegraphs will be a clockwise affair, you have to circle the Boss every two seconds to avoid dying to the telegraph.

First Hamidon that didn't split has an AOE mechanic that forces players out of Melee or die. Moments later the 24 person raid must 'hug' the boss to 'soak' and split a damage AOE this puts major pressure on Healers and DPS to keep themselves at max HP ready for the damage soak.

It's a true test of endurance as there is twice the chance of something going wrong.

To top it off both of these have to die at the same time.

 

Phase Three - 25% - 0%

Praetorian Hamidon manifests into something that looks straight out of the Outer Dark.

Aggro Reset and no aggro/threat, Tanks have done their Jobs, 25% is a burn phase, Hamidon targets players at random, the boss is static and uses ranged attacks.

Hamidon does a huge telegraphed AOE every 10 seconds with a 3 second wind up. Anyone inside the AOE dies.

Mind Control mechanic is upped for this phase, MC'd players have their HP increased by 1000%. (ALL of the DPS must target them and kill quick.)

It's a pure burn phase where mistakes are heavily punished and people without any defense in their builds are a massive hindrance to the raid group, everyone needs enough survivability to take one hit off Hamidon as it randomly targets Heroes and Villains.

 

Hamidon Defeat

Drops exclusive Costume Parts, this should make everyone want to learn the fight and partake. You get one Account-wide costume unlock per kill, everyone in the raid does but they must be T4 Incarnate to be eligible, It will take 7 kills to collect all of the costume pieces.

Badge for defeating Praetorian Hamidon.

Badge for being Mind Controlled.

Badge for having no Mind Controlled Players.

Badge for killing 15 Mind Controlled Players.

This series of Badges will play into the theme of Hamidon, players will have to trust each other to not be Mind Controlled, only very organized groups will manage the harder Badges.

 

A vision of Emperor Cole comes forth in a cinematic at the end, he thanks you, Praetoria is rebuilt from it's ruins but in the next chapter Hamidons spores still linger! This cinematic expands on Praetoria and offers up new challenges and the toughest enemies, Praetoria becomes a level 54 zone and takes a similar route to what Dark Astoria did, basically it's no longer a dead zone but a zone everyone has purpose to go to in the endgame.

 

 

 

I had fun writing this gibberish, I feel the key to any raid boss is for everyone to have a role. Healers are needed, Buffers and Debuffers are needed, Tanks are needed, DPS are needed, utilizing cooldowns for Phase Three is essential, this should be the hardest challenge in the game so... I wrote it that way!

 

 

The only problem I can see is I dont know if the devs have the tools, desire or manpower to make the new costume pieces, but I would love it if they could.

That and phase 3 aoe needs to be a longer timer. That would sideline melee players. But numbers can be adjusted, so thats just tuning.

[ivanhedgehog]

On 1/5/2021 at 11:18 AM, Greycat said:

 

As I'm reading this, I'm wondering if it's actually true. It does make the final jellybean easier to take down with Judgement, Lore, etc. Absolutely. But what about the rest of the raid?

 

I don't think the +1 level shift has *that* big of an impact, though of course you're also getting whatever boost you selected from Alpha. How big *that* is is debatable.

Judgement - doesn't tend to get used until the end, from what I've seen.

Incandescence - *maybe* has an impact depending on what's being used?

Lore - Impact at the end, not really during the rest of the raid itself.

Destiny - Impact at the beginning before everyone launches. Less of one during the mitos, since everyone's spread out, for any refreshes.

Hybrid - Honestly couldn't say.

 

Are they making the whole raid easier, or just the beginning and end?  At this point I *am* curious if we could run two raids back to back, one with and one without Incarnate abilities, just to compare. Hami itself would be slower, definitely... maybe the monster hunt (lord knows there's Judgement a'plenty there,) but how much would it affect the middle?

 

As for organization... "well, duh." 🙂  It's why we love our raid leaders - or should. Regardless of the raid. Buy your raid leader their beverage of choice.

I think, dont have proof though, that there are a lot of full IO set bonus super builds running now, probably much more than live. That probably has a lot bigger effect. It should not be nerfed because it is part of the long term game. without getting use of the sets there is no incentive to continue to play them.

[Wavicle]

I would guess that IO set bonuses have a small impact on Hami. Defense and damage resistance have no effect, a lot of people are getting lots of recharge buffs from teammates, so I’m not really sure that that is such a big deal.

[ivanhedgehog]

On 1/7/2021 at 1:26 PM, Latex said:

I get the feeling players want easier more casual encounters. The same players probably wonder why player retention is a problem and was even a problem back when the game was live.

 

The game has next to no challenge from my experience. I can log on my Kat/Bio Scrapper whom has a finished build and decimate any level of content effortlessly, whenever I join Hami raids my HP doesn't dip below 99% I take a hit and the insane level of stacked incarnate buff, capped DEF and RES, capped DMG, extreme +Rech, it poses no challenge.

 

Even Developers back in the day could not control the Pandoras Box of Set IO's and the gross imbalance it caused, they went from balancing a static powerset diversity to trying to balance characters who had covered up the holes in their powersets innate weaknesses. The lack of challenge in City of Heroes played a part in why it wasn't as popular as NCSoft wanted it to be and I'm of the opposite spectrum, the game needed content purpose-made for T4 Incarnates that have a fully finished IO build, a challenge that may take weeks of execution to successfully defeat like rival MMO's that came out at the same time and are still operational. This isn't 'Make every MMO like X or Y' but rather 'Make CoH have satisfying hurdles to overcome'.

If you are using eoe's you shouldnt be taking damage. Difficulty in this game is very easy to increase. This game is probably the easiest to customize difficulty. Hami damage is untyped so that makes it a very different fight from other content. Make your own hurdles and enjoy. Start a weekly non incarnate ITF where everyone unslots thier incarnates. I could see a toggle on tf starts that disables incarnates. challenged achieved.

[Xenosone]

Hami needs to be free roam attacking the rogue isles. So thats double benefit of having a raid and getting people to red side. 

[Apparition]

18 minutes ago, Xenosone said:

Hami needs to be free roam attacking the rogue isles. So thats double benefit of having a raid and getting people to red side. 

Yeah, who cares about the lowbies playing red side, am I right?

[Wavicle]

Hamidon exists in the Abyss which is a co op zone. To be honest I really don’t understand why at least on Excelsior hamidon raids are not conducted in the abyss instead of in the hive. It’s just as easy to reach, and is accessible to both sides. Why don’t we move there instead of the hive?

[Apparition]

2 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

Hamidon exists in the Abyss which is a co op zone. To be honest I really don’t understand why at least on Excelsior hamidon raids are not conducted in the abyss instead of in the hive. It’s just as easy to reach, and is accessible to both sides. Why don’t we move there instead of the hive?

Blue side privilege.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Xenosone said:

Hami needs to be free roam attacking the rogue isles. So thats double benefit of having a raid and getting people to red side. 

Nah, no thanks.

[Greycat]

7 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Hamidon exists in the Abyss which is a co op zone. To be honest I really don’t understand why at least on Excelsior hamidon raids are not conducted in the abyss instead of in the hive. It’s just as easy to reach, and is accessible to both sides. Why don’t we move there instead of the hive?

*shrug* Everlasting runs a few raids. The early ones (which I tend to be working during, or otherwise doing needed running around on weekends) tend to be in the Abyss, the later ones in the Hive. Can't hurt to ask whoever's running them if they'd switch it up a little.

 

Or maybe they're just more comfortable with the Hive. Or don't actually know about the Abyss.

[Veracor]

The Hive versus Abyss thing is something I can answer (for Everlasting, anyways):

 

Objectively, the only reason why Hami raids in the Hive are more popular is that there's several large walls of monsters that are already ideally clumped, greatly speeding up the monster hunt phase.  In the Abyss, there's no such spawns and monsters have to be pulled or defeated two at a time.  I suppose there's also a bit less travel time involved (Woodsman and Barracuda are roughly the same distance, but the Abyss itself is much larger to cross).

 

Subjectively, back before KiTTY took up the weekend Abyss raids on Everlasting, I was the only one running Hami raids and I would run one Hive raid and then one Abyss raid every day so that villains weren't left out.  This caused a lot of problems:

 

(1) Many would drop from the league because they weren't reading instructions and thought people leaving the zone meant the raid was done.

(2) Some would fail to find the Smuggler's Sub (even with directions) and would eventually drop from the league out of frustration.

(3) Many players would take a long time to get to the Abyss or would decide to go AFK after first Hami died, or were leeching in the first place.

(4) I needed (and still need) to be a Vigilante for search reasons, so that I can see who is team bugged as well as who turnstiled out of the iTrials I also run on the schedule.  A Vigilante league leader in a redside zone cannot invite anyone if there's a single person in team 1 that isn't in the zone.  Some people would get impatient at the wait, while others would try to grief the raid while I was unable to invite people because of stragglers.

(5) Some players would switch characters and meant I would have to ask each unarrived person what was going on and then kick them if no response in order to make room, because you can't move unarrived people around in the league and can't add anyone to a team if its leader isn't in your zone.  Due to people switching characters or dropping the league, leechers would often end up as team leads and have to be kicked in order to organize the league and they would usually flame me for doing that.  (There was an enormous leeching problem in Hami raids before Homecoming updated their multibox policy)

(6) Leaving the league and forming a new one in the Abyss didn't accomplish anything because people would fail to leave the old league and I would just invite myself back into it.  It could have been avoided by individually kicking every person in the league in the Hive, but I really didn't want kicking innocent people to be a part of my daily practice.

(7) Prior to the 50-player cap change, I would also have to coordinate with people on the second league based on invite/arrival/search.  I did not have consistent overflow/team leaders at the time so this had to be done in broadcast with random overflow members, because so many people would go AFK upon arrival to the Abyss while things were still getting set up and I couldn't see their league structure.

(8) After the 50-player cap change, if people couldn't get into the Hive they would often elect to wait in the Abyss for the second raid.  This frequently resulted in people from the Hive being unable to get into the Abyss, so Hive participants started porting out the instant Hami went down and not bother clearing the buds.  This sometimes also led to people pre-forming the Abyss league, which while well-meaning, is a bad thing to do because it causes additional team bugs (and it gets really whack if the league leader gets team bugged).

 

 

Eventually an incident happened that made me decide to stop running my second raid in the Abyss and to cut out most of the above problems by sticking to the Hive.  Since I was still the only daily raid leader for a while, everyone just got used to the Hive and its monster walls, with Neutron, Elmyder, Keen, Blackhearted, Alimorel, and Sue later deciding to also run their raids in the Hive (after experimenting a bit with weekday Abyss raids and noticing attendance there was lower in general).

 

tl;dr - It's faster to run raids in the Hive so it's not surprising that people prefer to form there normally.  Cross-zone travel as a league is kind of scuffed when trying to raid both zones, so people mostly just learned to ignore the Abyss even though it's perfectly fine if you form the first raid in it and remain there.

Edited January 20, 2021 by Veracor

[Wavicle]

Yea, the idea of trying to move an existing raid definitely sounds like a horror show. I’m just surprised people don’t start in the abyss more frequently.

[Apparition]

4 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Yea, the idea of trying to move an existing raid definitely sounds like a horror show. I’m just surprised people don’t start in the abyss more frequently.

 

My friends know that I've been off and on considering starting Hamidon raids in The Abyss on the Excelsior shard for about a year and a half now, since I co-lead Hamidon raids for a few years back on the Champion and Exalted servers prior to sunset.  But:

 

• I'm only one person, and Hamidon raids require several leaders.
• There are already multiple Hamidon raids every day on Excelsior.
• I already lead two or three instanced Rikti mothership raids per week, and I get burned out of leading after just that sometimes.
• There would be no room on the calendar for it without overlapping something else, between multiple MSRs every afternoon and multiple Hamidon raids in The Hive every night.  Heck, I already frequently get complaints about how close my Thursday night MSRs are in time to the nightly Hamidon raids, and they start a hour and a half prior to the official Hamidon raid start time.

 

Edit: In the meantime, I now have a couple of characters on Indomitable for Hamidon raiding there instead of Excelsior, since they raid in The Abyss every night.

 

Edited January 20, 2021 by Apparition