Combat Jumping vertical height to match P2W runs please?

[AngryJesusMan]

The fact that the P2W freebie runs have superior vertical clearance by comparison to Combat Jumping seems arbitrary and useless. I know I'm not one of the devs and haven't communicated with them about these kinds of topics, but I can't think of a design choice that would benefit from having the P2W powers be superior a to power that requires the buy-in of a slot in your build. 

 

The P2W runs are great, and I use them often. However, I find it particularly irksome (at least to my personal preferences) that when using a power in the Leaping pool, that has the word "Jumping" in it, that I may be required to switch to a freebie "Run" power to reach a spot that is slightly too high for the Jumping power.

 

I think this could be addressed by simply adjusting the vertical jump height when using Combat Jumping. I suppose the same  case could be made for reducing the vertical jump height of the P2W runs, but I'm not looking to make something less useful here. I would just like to be able to rely on a jumping power to make the jumps I need to make. It seems like a fairly simple and thematic concept.  

 

Hopefully the following can help to head off what I have seen as the inevitable responses to this subject. Things I am aware of:

• "The P2W runs are faster than Sprint + CJ." I'm not worried about the speed difference. Besides, that's to be expected when you're comparing a "run" to a "jump" power.
• "CJ can be slotted with Jump Enhancements." However, that eats slots for something that is, essentially a minor personal gripe. I'm a big fan of character optimization, so burning slots for something trivial isn't something I'm prone to do. And this is beside the fact. Putting Jump Enhancement into a slotted power should make the slotted power even more superior to the freebie run power. You shouldn't be required to do such an inane thing in order to make a Jump power that you invest in equivalent to a freebie Run power.
• "CJ can be toggled on along with Super Speed and other similar travel powers (except, obviously, Super Jump/Mighty Leap)." This doesn't address my primary point in any way.
• "CJ grants bonuses other than jump height and control." These are good, and to be expected of a power for which you actually have to dedicate a slot in your build. I accept and appreciate that, but the primary point still stands.
• "Super Jump is in the same pool and can definitely address the jump height issue." This is true, but still doesn't serve as any kind of reasoning for the lesser invested power to be inferior in any way to the freebie power.

 

Hopefully this overly loquacious breakdown helps to punctuate the feeling of annoyance I get when I'm using a jump power in which I invested, only to have to shut it off to use a freebie run power to reach a high spot.

 

Despite this minor gripe, I think you all are doing a fantastic job, and thank you for your efforts in making this a pleasurable experience for everyone. This is just a simple little annoyance that I think would be a simple and helpful thing to address. Thanks for all you do, and if you disagree, I'll definitely continue playing, although I will maintain that minor bit of personal annoyance. Cheers!

[EmperorSteele]

Despite its place in the Leaping pool, Combat Jumping is a defense power with a jump height bonus, not a travel power.

[AngryJesusMan]

54 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

Despite its place in the Leaping pool, Combat Jumping is a defense power with a jump height bonus, not a travel power.

While that's a fair point, the power itself does accept Universal Travel Enhancements, solidifying the interpretation that it was at least meant to nominally be used as a Travel Power.

[Parabola]

You point out that it has the word 'jumping' in the name but it also has the word 'combat'. It is clearly not designed to be a travel power but to provide extra movement and defence for combat. Functionally it is the jumping equivalent of hover, being the combat counterpart to fly.

[Outrider_01]

2 hours ago, EmperorSteele said:

Despite its place in the Leaping pool, Combat Jumping is a defense power with a jump height bonus, not a travel power.

And immobilize protection, just no -fly protection that most immobilize have.

[AngryJesusMan]

1 hour ago, parabola said:

You point out that it has the word 'jumping' in the name but it also has the word 'combat'. It is clearly not designed to be a travel power but to provide extra movement and defence for combat. Functionally it is the jumping equivalent of hover, being the combat counterpart to fly.

Thank you for the input. Fine, Combat Jumping is not a travel power, per se, but you're still making a meaningless equivocation. The Hover power doesn't have the word combat in it (see how pointless that argument is?). However, using Hover one can still achieve the same heights as the Fly power, albeit quite a bit more slowly. With the Jump Pack/Steam Jump power, Hover can even serve as a stand-in for Fly over short distances (much more than that prior to the two powers having a shared cooldown, but alas) while also bringing all of the extra benefits that are packaged with it. I'm not asking that Combat Jumping achieve the same heights as Super Jump/Mighty Leap, only that it reach the height of the freebie powers. By itself, it still won't achieve the horizontal speed that the runs powers achieve. It stands to reason that, with a bit of similar stacking of powers, that Combat Jumping might be able to bridge the same gap that Hover can for flight.

 

I just fail to see the purpose in leaving Combat Jumping to be inferior to the freebie run powers in this one, very specific way. Your explanation has not impressed upon me the importance of it remaining as such.

[Haijinx]

Combat Jumping is superior to all the freebie powers 

 

It has an extremely low end cost, a defense bonus, and when you have it your movement is much easier when in the air. 

[Razor Cure]

47 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Combat Jumping is superior to all the freebie powers 

This.

I take CJ on ALL my toons. And till I also get SS (usually between lvl 4-22) I use teh P2W powers. I toggle the p2w ones to run about, THEN turn CJ on..you know..in combat. It is all in the name really.

CJ already allows us to literally jump onto the roof of a building. No normal human can do that with a vertical leap.

Cj also has the single best and most varied slotting on ANY power in game, with kismets, kb IOs, gamblers, +res IOs, stealth IOs, and run IOs, all useable in a power that never actually needs slots to boost its stats.

 

 

[EmperorSteele]

3 hours ago, AngryJesusMan said:

While that's a fair point, the power itself does accept Universal Travel Enhancements, solidifying the interpretation that it was at least meant to nominally be used as a Travel Power.

 

Erm, not quite. See, when the power was made, it was LONG before IOs. It accepts jump sets (and as an extention, Travel sets) because it takes jump enhancements, so that you can slot it to jump 20 or 25 feet instead of just 15 (or whatever the numbers are, I'm on mobile atm). It is NOT a "travel" power. Turning on CJ and trying to get around Paragon City would be almost as much of an exercize in teidum as doing so with Hover (which accepts flight enhancements and sets, despite being slower than our basic run speed. I think we can all agree that Hover is not a "travel" power).

 

Besides which fact is, if you want to jump around for your travel power, SuperJump is available at level 4 with no prerequisites. Your idea may have had merit back in the old days when SJ wasn't available until lvl 14 AND you had to take CJ first anyway to unlock it (well that or jumpkick, lol), but now? I personally don't see the point, sorry.

[AngryJesusMan]

1 hour ago, Haijinx said:

Combat Jumping is superior to all the freebie powers 

 

It has an extremely low end cost, a defense bonus, and when you have it your movement is much easier when in the air. 

When factoring for Defense, yes it is definitively superior.

 

Jump Control (aka movement when in the air) is a wash because the P2W powers provide that as well.

 

Low END cost - fair point. I guess you're saying that if you want to jump higher, you need to pay more Endurance?

[Razor Cure]

1 minute ago, AngryJesusMan said:

 

Low END cost - fair point. I guess you're saying that if you want to jump higher, you need to pay more Endurance?

Clearly. P2W travels cost more end, so does SJ.

[AngryJesusMan]

23 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

This.

I take CJ on ALL my toons. And till I also get SS (usually between lvl 4-22) I use teh P2W powers. I toggle the p2w ones to run about, THEN turn CJ on..you know..in combat. It is all in the name really.

CJ already allows us to literally jump onto the roof of a building. No normal human can do that with a vertical leap.

Cj also has the single best and most varied slotting on ANY power in game, with kismets, kb IOs, gamblers, +res IOs, stealth IOs, and run IOs, all useable in a power that never actually needs slots to boost its stats.

 

 

I'm not arguing any of these things. It's a great power.

 

On the toon I was noticing this, I have Speed of Sound (so I can use Jaunt for some form of vertical movement if necessary). It pairs nicely with Combat Jumping. Still, when I want to get around certain zones (zones with multiple vertical movements to make), it's often necessary to flip to a P2W run, try to aim my Jaunt so that I land properly, or flip on a temp Jet Pack. In some areas, you'll get that anyway, but I was just looking to reduce the number of situations in which it is required to make the change.

[AngryJesusMan]

26 minutes ago, EmperorSteele said:

 

Erm, not quite. See, when the power was made, it was LONG before IOs. It accepts jump sets (and as an extention, Travel sets) because it takes jump enhancements, so that you can slot it to jump 20 or 25 feet instead of just 15 (or whatever the numbers are, I'm on mobile atm). It is NOT a "travel" power. Turning on CJ and trying to get around Paragon City would be almost as much of an exercize in teidum as doing so with Hover (which accepts flight enhancements and sets, despite being slower than our basic run speed. I think we can all agree that Hover is not a "travel" power).

 

Besides which fact is, if you want to jump around for your travel power, SuperJump is available at level 4 with no prerequisites. Your idea may have had merit back in the old days when SJ wasn't available until lvl 14 AND you had to take CJ first anyway to unlock it (well that or jumpkick, lol), but now? I personally don't see the point, sorry.

I get that. But that's part of why I suggested this. The Homecoming Devs have addressed a number of QoL things that were created in the early days of the game and simply didn't measure up to the state of the game as it stands now.

 

But let me cop to something here: I didn't look at the numbers and see exactly how much CJ is inferior to the P2W powers. I have since rectified that. CJ adds 8 feet of vertical jump height (plus actual combat benefits). Athletic Run adds 27.8 feet  of vertical jump height. That's a lot.

 

Of course, as was pointed out above, the End cost is remarkably low so I guess that's the trade-off - a fair bit of combat and a little bit of jumping for an economical End cost. I guess that's what it comes down to in the end.

 

That, and I definitely underestimated the emotional investment some would have in keeping Combat Jumping right where it's at. lol

[Haijinx]

12 minutes ago, AngryJesusMan said:

When factoring for Defense, yes it is definitively superior.

 

Jump Control (aka movement when in the air) is a wash because the P2W powers provide that as well.

 

Low END cost - fair point. I guess you're saying that if you want to jump higher, you need to pay more Endurance?

I don't know how it works.  Doesn't CJ provide Air control agility or something?  I hate trying to play without it. 

[Razor Cure]

7 minutes ago, AngryJesusMan said:

Still, when I want to get around certain zones (zones with multiple vertical movements to make), it's often necessary to flip to a P2W run, try to aim my Jaunt so that I land properly, or flip on a temp Jet Pack. In some areas, you'll get that anyway, but I was just looking to reduce the number of situations in which it is required to make the change.

Just leave cj and SoS on, and toggle a p2e jump/fly pack. No detoggling needed!

[Bopper]

8 hours ago, AngryJesusMan said:

The fact that the P2W freebie runs have superior vertical clearance by comparison to Combat Jumping seems arbitrary and useless

I think you are making the wrong comparison. The P2W freebie runs are meant to be a mixture of Super Speed and Super Jump travel powers. Basically you get a free unenhanceable (but you can still buff it) version of a half capable SS and a half capable SJ. Exact numbers, I think it's 40% of SS's run speed, 55% of SJ's jump speed, and 25% of SJ's jump height.

 

If you want to make the case for increasing CJ's jump height, that's fine. But comparing it to P2W freebie runs is sort of an apples to oranges comparison. Afterall, CJ only buffs how high you can jump, it does practically nothing for your jump speed (+1%). So like others have stated, I do not view it as a travel power, rather a travel enhancer (if paired with Super Speed, and I heard its movement control pairs nice with Fly/Hover, but I haven't tried).

 

Personally, I just use Jump Pack if I need to clear something hard while using CJ. You can also, if you like, get the Base Empowerment buff that boosts your Jump strength by 20%. It's not amazing sure, but it would add an extra 1.6 feet to your jump height on CJ (I forget what it does for Hurdle, I'd have to refer to my movement guide for exact numbers). Of course, this buff also would boost your P2W's jump, so you're probably still better off using those if strictly for travel purposes.

[Dragon Crush]

Also to add, while they are free now, when they were introduced ninja run and beast run cost real money to unlock being part of paid booster packs (think they later made it so you could buy just ninja/beast run by themselves) so they would be expected to be better than normal. Maybe now that they're free they don't need to hold such a large mobility edge over CJ, but that was expected back when they were introduced.

[Doomguide2005]

On 1/4/2021 at 6:50 PM, Haijinx said:

I don't know how it works.  Doesn't CJ provide Air control agility or something?  I hate trying to play without it. 

I always pair Combat Jumping with Hurdle made much easier since Fitness became inherent. Combined  Hurdle gave me the distance to leap backwards while CJ gave me the control to do so while moving around a corner while using an attack to pull foes when needed, landing around the corner out of los and return fire/retaliation.  With the pairing I could reach the entrance to the Terra Volta trial without a travel power (and do approaching from either side).  So yes CJ offers substantial control while airborne and jumping.

[BrandX]

I'd rather see Combat Jumping not detoggle with Ninja Run.

[Haijinx]

3 hours ago, BrandX said:

I'd rather see Combat Jumping not detoggle with Ninja Run.

This.  Because that is so annoying.

[Grindingsucks]

I do use the P2W travels.  And I have used Combat Jumping on various toons.  And I have carefully read all of the objections to the OP's suggestion, to this point.

 

I have to say, while Combat Jumping is pretty good, I still agree a little QoL enhancement to the jump height of the power is in order.  I really don't think changing the boost (to +20, vs. +8, let's say) is going to make the ability somehow more overpowered for its cost compared to other powers that exist in the game.

 

If you wanted to dial up the endurance cost a tad, to compensate, that is reasonable.  Just don't overdo it.  Gaining the ability to jump vertically another couple of dozen feet doesn't suddenly turn you into an overpowered god.

Edited January 7, 2021 by Grindingsucks

[nihilii]

CJ - unsuppressed

P2W - suppressed

 

I wouldn't say no to a buff, but CJ is already the best power in the game due to the unsuppressed air control it offers.

[SwitchFade]

Did anyone mention that cj protects you from immob?

 

Shrug and probably no vote on making it jump higher. How about rename it to combat mobility?