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Trying something for Endurance woes...


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Back in the day, the reason I stopped playing CoH was because I found the endurance "game" far too frustrating.  My characters couldn't walk and chew gum.  I felt like I was fighting my POWERS more than the ENEMIES... and I'm back here again, feeling the same frustration, especially on my Defender, Ch'ih Sung Tsu.  A storm god, his powers are Storm/Electric.  I was going to give him some pools to boost his defenses, but he simply can't DO anything.  I run through my attacks once, maybe twice... and he's OUT of endurance.  I three slotted Stamina.  I put THREE endurance reducers in every attack and toggle (except Hover)... and STILL was out of endurance in moments.  Someone told me about Performance Shifter with the +Endurance proc... so I put one of those in Stamina.  It helped... but not much.


Then I noticed my Electric attacks can all take End Mod enhancers, and I wondered what would happen if I put one of those Performance Shifter +Endurance enhancers in EACH attack.  If they proc every time I attack... I would be getting endurance BACK when I attacked.  So, I'm trying it out.  So far... I think it's working better.  Each attack currently has the PShifter, an accuracy and a damage SO... and it SEEMS to be better.

 

My question is how the procs would work.  It says in the description that the proc should happen once every 90 seconds (in Stamina).  The question is whether EACH one would proc each 90 seconds, independently of the OTHER procs, or if they would ALL go on "cooldown" if one procs?  If it's the latter case, it seems to me that having multiples would be kind of pointless, the one in Stamina would be doing all the procs, putting all the ones in the attacks on cooldown.

 

Anyway, it's an experiment.  I'll let you know how it goes once I've had some time to play with it.

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Storm is rough on endurance, it's one of the few sets that still feel hard to keep up with for endurance, Storm even feels harsher than Dark Armor togglefest.

 

Some notes, there are more endurance global IO's to look at.  Three slotting health with Panacea: +Hitpoints/Endurance, Miracle Recovery, Numina's Regen/Recovery all add some more endurance management.  It can get pricey though if you don't have a lot of inf, so if you can't afford them, look into using merits or selling merit-bought converters. It also requires two extra slots in health, so that's something to consider.  I find them very useful on any end heavy build.

 

There's some P2W options as well at the vendor.  You can get Recovery Serum charges (5 per 50k) that give you a huge recovery increase for a period of time.  I tend to buy a full set of this for each end-heavy new character I make (you can hold up to 50 charges).  This makes a big difference before  getting incarnates to help with endurance.  There are amplifier buffs that you can buy by the hour, but they get pricey after the early levels.  I try to buy 8 hours of all three of them (1000 inf per hour) on each new character, just because it's very cheap at level 1.  In stark contrast, they cost something like 2.5 million per hour at level 50, so it's more of a use it while you level kind of thing rather than something to rely on late game.

 

There are base empowerment buffs you can get for recovery too.  Just make a base (free to do), put in the buff station, and stock up on some common cheap salvage.  I think you get an hour and a half recovery buff for two or three common salvage, and you can refresh it as often as it expires for the same cheap price.  Worth using it for the +recharge too, you can get 20% recharge for an hour and a half for something like a common and uncommon salvage.  KB protection etc, other buffs available for cheap salvage really makes some things better.

 

Getting the +max end accolades helps too, look into getting them as early as you can.

 

Edited by Dark Dove
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I mained a stormie on live for about 5 years...mostly before IOs and even after I just stuck with SOs.  Once you get past DO levels it becomes much easier to manage end.  My standard slotting is 2 end reds on each toggle, save snowstorm for AV or GM because otherwise its a waste, 1 end red in each attack, 2 if you like to click fast.  Once past DOs I never had the kind of trouble you are describing so I hope you are low 20s or teens and it'll pass!

 

My current project for incarnates is an elec/storm corr, so very similar to your def.  She is fully built with sets and procs and has no end issues now.  There is light at the end of the tunnel!

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5 hours ago, Ultimo said:

My question is how the procs would work.  It says in the description that the proc should happen once every 90 seconds (in Stamina).  The question is whether EACH one would proc each 90 seconds, independently of the OTHER procs, or if they would ALL go on "cooldown" if one procs?  If it's the latter case, it seems to me that having multiples would be kind of pointless, the one in Stamina would be doing all the procs, putting all the ones in the attacks on cooldown.

Procs do not generally share cooldowns with each other. Performance Shifter procs don't have a lockout period or anything so the more you have the higher the chance you'll get +end at any given time. I'd also recommend a Panacea +HP/+end proc in Health as well as the Miracle +recovery and Numina's Convalescence +regen/+recovery (both in Health since they are healing sets). Pricy, yes, but it helps with end. Also worth nothing as other posters have said - get those +end accolades ASAP since recovery is based on max endurance.

4 hours ago, Dark Dove said:

I'm not sure about the performance shifter procs, I've read that they don't work great when used in lots of powers particularly but I think those posts were in relation to putting the proc in multiple passives, not active skills.  I'm sure someone will come along with good advice on that, there are some who have tested procs extensively.

The only proc exhibiting the behavior you're describing is the Power Transfer +HP proc, which is because it's flagged to not stack more than once from a single activation, and in the case of toggle/auto powers that "activation" is a tick every 10 seconds which is shared by all toggle/auto powers. The Performance Shifter proc doesn't have this limitation.

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@macskull/@Not Mac

Proc information and chance calculator spreadsheet (last updated 25JUL20)

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I guess the big question is (and someone said it before) what level are you?  Single Origin enhancements make a world of difference.  Also, 3 slotting End Redux in attacks means you're not 3 slotting Damage, which is a big trade-off.  I generally go 1 accuracy, 1 End-redux, 3 Damage, 1 Recharge if just looking at SOs/Common IOs

What this team needs is more Defenders

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28 minutes ago, macskull said:

The only proc exhibiting the behavior you're describing is the Power Transfer +HP proc, which is because it's flagged to not stack more than once from a single activation, and in the case of toggle/auto powers that "activation" is a tick every 10 seconds which is shared by all toggle/auto powers. The Performance Shifter proc doesn't have this limitation.

Sounds right, probably what I read, good information. Thanks for clearing that up.

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Look down this section to the one titled "Stamina or Health for Endurance"  Lots of helpful info either in that thread or linked there.

 

As others have said get the +endurance Accolades asap.  All those +% recovery boosts work off your max endurance.  I'd stop after adding 2 SO's on your toggles EDs diminishing returns will hit the 3rd SO fairly hard.  Likewise it's a bit of a balancing act between more than 1 SO endred in attacks to help attack more often without losing too much endurance and using damage SOs to do more damage so you don't have to attack (and use that end) as often.

 

Unsure how effective the +end return is on the blasts that include it (it's a 30% chance on the blasts that can near as can tell).  Totally unknown how the Performance Shifter proc works there, if for example does the end return have to trigger for the Shifter proc to perhaps trigger.  That's more @Bopper's wheel house.  It's also commonly mentioned in threads about buffing Electric Blast (increase the chance and/or amount returned).

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2 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Unsure how effective the +end return is on the blasts that include it (it's a 30% chance on the blasts that can near as can tell).  Totally unknown how the Performance Shifter proc works there, if for example does the end return have to trigger for the Shifter proc to perhaps trigger. 

Procs slotted in a power will roll for their chance to activate when the power they're slotted in is activated regardless of any secondary effects. You could roughly math out how much end you'd get back if you knew an attack chain and how it was slotted, but Performance Shifter is only 1.5PPM so it will probably perform poorly in most actual attack powers. As an example: if slotted in Lightning Bolt, Performance Shifter would have a 24.18% chance to fire on each cast if Lightning Bolt had no recharge slotted in it and 16.68% chance to fire on each cast with a more-typical 60% slotted recharge. Even in Zapp you're looking at a 33% chance at best.

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@macskull/@Not Mac

Proc information and chance calculator spreadsheet (last updated 25JUL20)

Twitch | Youtube

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Run ageless at 50 and you’ll never have endurance problems again in end game content. When exemplared the best I can usually do on a stormy is usually run fewer toggles (i.e. detoggle leadership). 
 

But yeah sub-50 is the only relevant problem area anymore. Literally no combo in the game can’t have its blue bar fixed by ageless after that though.

Edited by arcaneholocaust
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storm on fenders and corrs are quite tricky. At lower levels, you get access to toggles that you can't afford to run because of their ridiculously high end consumption. I usually postpone taking these until I've somewhat managed my recovery for attacks. Aside from that, I tend to look into set bonuses that increase max end and slot those in as soon as I can. Those plus IOs in attacks that give recovery bonuses are my priority (like 2pc Thunderstrike in most st range, 2pc posi's blast in aoe's, etc.). That said, I usually just slot a perf shifter end mod and the proc in stamina (in all of my toons), and that pretty much takes care of it.

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6 hours ago, Ultimo said:

Back in the day, the reason I stopped playing CoH was because I found the endurance "game" far too frustrating.  My characters couldn't walk and chew gum.  I felt like I was fighting my POWERS more than the ENEMIES... and I'm back here again, feeling the same frustration, especially on my Defender, Ch'ih Sung Tsu.  A storm god, his powers are Storm/Electric.  I was going to give him some pools to boost his defenses, but he simply can't DO anything.  I run through my attacks once, maybe twice... and he's OUT of endurance.  I three slotted Stamina.  I put THREE endurance reducers in every attack and toggle (except Hover)... and STILL was out of endurance in moments.  Someone told me about Performance Shifter with the +Endurance proc... so I put one of those in Stamina.  It helped... but not much.


Then I noticed my Electric attacks can all take End Mod enhancers, and I wondered what would happen if I put one of those Performance Shifter +Endurance enhancers in EACH attack.  If they proc every time I attack... I would be getting endurance BACK when I attacked.  So, I'm trying it out.  So far... I think it's working better.  Each attack currently has the PShifter, an accuracy and a damage SO... and it SEEMS to be better.

 

My question is how the procs would work.  It says in the description that the proc should happen once every 90 seconds (in Stamina).  The question is whether EACH one would proc each 90 seconds, independently of the OTHER procs, or if they would ALL go on "cooldown" if one procs?  If it's the latter case, it seems to me that having multiples would be kind of pointless, the one in Stamina would be doing all the procs, putting all the ones in the attacks on cooldown.

 

Anyway, it's an experiment.  I'll let you know how it goes once I've had some time to play with it.

Don't...

 

- Expect to be able to spam all attacks and run multiple toggles at low levels

 

- Expect to spam all your attacks and run multiple toggles when slotting is poor

 

- Ignore tactics and faceroll, expecting end not to crash

 

- Spam all your attacks as a defender with any combination of the above and expect end not to tank

 

I'm not saying you are doing these, I'm saying don't, if you are.

 

Do...

 

- be capricious with your toggles and chain levels 2-30, run em when you need, fire em when you need

 

- slot panacea +end, perf shifter +end in health/stamina

 

- read the forums on the AT and powers for great feedback from users of the same

 

- use mids to see end drain and recovery

 

The game has end as part of it's balance. That said, being lvl 50 super at lvl 1-20 is not going to happen. However, there are many ways to be end happy!

 

Spoken from several storm AT experience.

Edited by SwitchFade
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Chances are, your multiple endurance cost reductions in your attacks aren't helping as much as you think. While one is usually fine for attacks costing around 8-15 endurance each, powers that cost less than this by default aren't usually worth putting reduction into, and adding more to the ones that do cost more only drop your costs by 1-2 points or less.

 

If you're strapped for slots, consider running 2 slotted Stamina and 2 slotted Health. Put the Performance Shifter Proc + Performance Shifter Endurance Mod (for an easy 2 piece movement bonus) in Stamina, then go for the Panacea Proc + Miracle Proc in Health. All of these procs perform better, or equal, to a standard Endurance Mod. Numina's is actually weaker for the purposes of recovery than a regular End Mod in Stamina, so if you need more than the above, then go with a third slot in Stamina before adding a third to Health. Bear in mind that if you have other +recovery passives in your powersets, you can add more Performance Shifter procs to them (up to 5 total), and if you have a +regeneration/health passive that takes healing sets you can put in a Numina's there without adding additional slots to your build.

 

For reference, in regards to Stamina, the hierarchy for recovery bonuses is Panacea Proc > Performance Shifter Proc > Miracle Proc = End Mod Enhancement > Numina's. If a power that provides a larger recovery boost than Stamina is involved, the value of an End Mod enhancement can move higher than this flow (as it's modifying a larger base number), just like if it's weaker it can move lower in value than even Numina's.

 

All of that aside, something seems off with regards to your issues. If you're slotting that much endurance reduction and you're still having problems, then are you using enhancements that are at least SO in strength? Are you leaving Hurricane on the entire time (it's very endurance-heavy, even when slotted)? Are you throwing out AoE powers even against single foes? Are your attacks slotted to also deal enough damage to defeat foes in fewer activations? There's a lot of questions here.

exChampion and exInfinity player (Champion primarily).

 

Current resident of the Everlasting shard.

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Thanks to all for the advice.

 

The character is L28 now, all SO (except the PShifters).  I don't use Snow Storm at all... I find it causes foes to run around aggroing whole maps, and it costs a lot of endurance for little benefit.

 

My usual slotting (and this is the case on all my characters) is one endurance reduction, one accuracy and 3 damage (or relevant effect, if the power doesn't DO damage).  However, that's been ENTIRELY insufficient on this character.

 

I'll look into the Numina's and other such things you've suggested.

 

Thanks again!

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14 hours ago, EmmySky said:

I mained a stormie on live for about 5 years...mostly before IOs and even after I just stuck with SOs.  Once you get past DO levels it becomes much easier to manage end.

Basically, there are no "DO levels" any more.  You can buy SO's from the Hero Corps vendors in Atlas Park starting at level 5.

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I used to hail from Infinity.  Mainly on Everlasting, now.

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On 1/8/2021 at 4:56 AM, Ultimo said:

The question is whether EACH one would proc each 90 seconds, independently of the OTHER procs, or if they would ALL go on "cooldown"

 

There are no cooldowns. The percentage chance of the IO activating in Stamina every 10 seconds is such that it will AVERAGE one activation every 90 seconds, but it's not guaranteed, and there is no lockout on it.

Similarly, the chances of the IOs in the attacks activating will result in an average activation of once every 90 seconds (assuming spamming the attacks, but with no global recharge), for each attack separately... but each attack could get lucky and have the proc activate on consecutive power activations. It's all based on percentages, not cooldowns or lockouts.

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On 1/8/2021 at 3:26 AM, Dark Dove said:

Three slotting health with Panacea: +Hitpoints/Endurance, Miracle Recovery, Numina's Regen/Recovery all add some more endurance management.  It can get pricey though if you don't have a lot of inf, so if you can't afford them, look into using merits or selling merit-bought converters. It also requires two extra slots in health, so that's something to consider.  I find them very useful on any end heavy build.

I had a Dominator that was running out of end a lot. I had intended to slot this way but hadn't bought the enhancements yet. I finally picked them up and it made all the difference for her.

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Survival amplifier is cheap at low levels and there's a + recovery sg base buff for 3 pieces of cheap salvage for 1.5 hours at a time. That's 20% and 17% recovery, respectively.

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9 minutes ago, Veelectric Boogaloo said:

Survival amplifier is cheap at low levels and there's a + recovery sg base buff for 3 pieces of cheap salvage for 1.5 hours at a time. That's 20% and 17% recovery, respectively.

Do those stack?  Been along time since I used one but guessing no. 

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On 1/8/2021 at 11:14 AM, arcaneholocaust said:

Run ageless at 50 and you’ll never have endurance problems again in end game content. When exemplared the best I can usually do on a stormy is usually run fewer toggles (i.e. detoggle leadership). 
 

But yeah sub-50 is the only relevant problem area anymore. Literally no combo in the game can’t have its blue bar fixed by ageless after that though.

Yep good suggestion. Hell as a storm character you SHOULD NOT be running all the toggles available to the storm set all the time anyway.

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I also want to post a warning about a toggle that is often forgotten: Sprint. I prefer to keep sprint toggled on for the movement increase, and sometimes for stealth.

 

Sprint can be slotted for Endurance reduction too... and every character starts with two Sprints, each available for slotting.

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On 1/8/2021 at 6:27 PM, Ironblade said:

Basically, there are no "DO levels" any more.  You can buy SO's from the Hero Corps vendors in Atlas Park starting at level 5.

The SOs start at level 5; you can buy them with a level 1 character, although you can't slot them until level 2. Your wording can be read as not being able to buy them until level 5.

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