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Rinwen

Tankers useless endgame?

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4 minutes ago, Rinwen said:

Uh... am I not doing exactly that?  Asking other opinions?

 

He never said, nor did I say that he said, to play something else.

 

Who is he?  All I'll say is that he's a Lv 50, fully incarnated Brute who gave me some power leveling, and then offered me 100,000,000 Inf, (which I did NOT accept... Yomo's 20 mil Inf gift was enough), because he was at the Inf cap, and needed to get rid of some.

 

A) I'd say someone like that probably has enough game experience to know something. 

B) Again, he never tried to dissuade me from playing a Tank, just said that in today's endgame world, they aren't needed, or particularly desirable because other ATs outperform them in damage, and damage is king.

   B.2) Many here have agreed that NO AT is really needed at the maxed out level... some saying Tankers are more situational, (probably true of many/all ATs)

   B.3) I've read the "damage is king in this game" many, many times, so I suspect there's some truth there. 

 

Between A) - B.3) above, there was the ring of truth to what he said.

 

Because I do use critical thinking skills, I came here seeking more opinions. 

 

As I said in my OP, even if 100% true, I'd still play my INV/SS Tanker alot, and I'll spec him with Hurl and Laser eyes, (usually regarded as pointless and a waste of a power pick... choose one or the other, not both, so the build advice goes), because that will be fun for me... I just won't go to the expense of kitting out a separate "team build,"

You are expressly not doing that (crowd sourcing opinions on a topic is not critical thinking). You are asking for someone else to think for you about someone else's opinions with no further insight into the interaction.

 

Now that you have provided more information, we can probably speak more intelligently on your interaction with said person (level 50, Brute, incarnates, power leveling, more inf than needed on hand). If his slant on the game is power leveling (running AE farms), then yes, from his perspective, his advice is correct (Tanks being pointless). In a general sense, damage is king. There is also value in surviving damage so others can deal their king-sized damage and not eat floor in the process. 

 

You are looking for someone else to validate your choices. Who does that benefit other than you? Are you having fun with your INV/SS (sounds like it)? Why would you be concerned with someone else's opinion about Tanks if he himself doesn't play one and probably not played in the same manner as you? If you are having fun, please continue to have fun playing your character. Don't let someone else color your perception of fun in a game. One thing that needs to be understood is that CoX in a broad sense does not employ a narrow set of rules for how to be successful in game. Now, for some user created content, things are hyper tweaked to make it narrowly focused. So that colors some people perceptions of usefulness. 

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I always build for core function first: Tankers for survivability, Defenders for debuff or buff, just about anything else for DPS. 

 

My philosophy of tanking is a bit different from some players because I got too used to the pre-incarnate game.  My job as I see it is to hold all the aggro until the last boss of the spawn dies, while also watching out for what the other players are doing and trying to intervene if they get in over their heads.  This generally means staying on a spawn until the last boss is dead.  My task is not to demonstrate how tough I am by rushing forth to aggro another spawn; my task is to shepherd the team through the mission with a minimum of player deaths.  This means not leaving bosses in the backfield, and I generally don't move forward until I am sure that they will follow me. 

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45 minutes ago, LiquidBandage said:

You are expressly not doing that (crowd sourcing opinions on a topic is not critical thinking). You are asking for someone else to think for you about someone else's opinions with no further insight into the interaction.

 

Now that you have provided more information, we can probably speak more intelligently on your interaction with said person (level 50, Brute, incarnates, power leveling, more inf than needed on hand). If his slant on the game is power leveling (running AE farms), then yes, from his perspective, his advice is correct (Tanks being pointless). In a general sense, damage is king. There is also value in surviving damage so others can deal their king-sized damage and not eat floor in the process. 

 

You are looking for someone else to validate your choices. Who does that benefit other than you? Are you having fun with your INV/SS (sounds like it)? Why would you be concerned with someone else's opinion about Tanks if he himself doesn't play one and probably not played in the same manner as you? If you are having fun, please continue to have fun playing your character. Don't let someone else color your perception of fun in a game. One thing that needs to be understood is that CoX in a broad sense does not employ a narrow set of rules for how to be successful in game. Now, for some user created content, things are hyper tweaked to make it narrowly focused. So that colors some people perceptions of usefulness. 

You really lack reading comprehension skills.

 

I simply asked if what I was told was true, nothing more, nothing less.

 

I expressly said, TWICE now, that it didn't really make any difference to me one way or the other... other than maybe I wouldn't bother kitting out a team build.

 

I said I mostly solo.

 

I said true or not doesn't dissuade me from playing this character, and more specifically, building it for my enjoyment. 

 

Not having any experience with something rather precludes the ability to analyze and critically think about something. 

 

You want to discuss builds, classes, gear, skills, and endgame in Elder Scrolls Online... you want to posit a theory, have me break it down, critically analyze it, and support or deny your assertion?  Bring it... I've played, still do, that game for years, since it's Beta actually. 

 

I have 8x Max, (CP 810) characters, all crafting professions maxed, all content, including raids at Vet levels completed, and more money than I know what to do with.

 

I know enough to speak intelligently about that game, break apart, analyze, and critically think about anything you could say, posit as fact, or ask about it.

 

Here... I don’t know enough to critically analyze on my own... so I'm forced to gather opinions/facts from those who do... THEN form my own opinion.

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45 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

I always build for core function first: Tankers for survivability, Defenders for debuff or buff, just about anything else for DPS. 

 

My philosophy of tanking is a bit different from some players because I got too used to the pre-incarnate game.  My job as I see it is to hold all the aggro until the last boss of the spawn dies, while also watching out for what the other players are doing and trying to intervene if they get in over their heads.  This generally means staying on a spawn until the last boss is dead.  My task is not to demonstrate how tough I am by rushing forth to aggro another spawn; my task is to shepherd the team through the mission with a minimum of player deaths.  This means not leaving bosses in the backfield, and I generally don't move forward until I am sure that they will follow me. 

Funny, actually at the lower levels, I've been doing the opposite by shoring up the weaknesses. 

 

Been building for dmg first on Tanker, and defenses first on Scrappers, lol.

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Allow me to frame the scenario a little differently:

If you're running iTrials, ITF, Market Crash, or Peregrine Missions with a full team of 8 (or 16 or 24), then it's a bit hard to see a tank or any ATs contribution. But run a team of 3 or 4, and the "roles" become more pronounced. I've been on teams where a timely taunt saved a teammates life--a skill I have still yet to get the hang of. Miss Lib or Recluse's SF are two good examples where a tank is particularly useful even on a full team.

I blap a lot, and sometimes get cocky on how high my res and def are on top of how much damage I do. But on a team of 4 facing a mob full of purples, I will take a second to let the tank get the first hit... unless I want a free trip to the med bay. Moreover, whatever AT I'm playing, on smaller teams, I tend to appreciate the particular contribution other teammates' ATs bring to the fray.

 

 

Edit: about that taunting skill I mentioned.

I ran an all archer team yesterday. We were comprised of 2 blasters, 2 sentinels, a corruptor and a mastermind. MM and corr brought the heals, which was helpful, and I took the role of the tank (I even built my Sentinel like a tank: focus on def, res, and self heal vs damage output, also factored in Presence pool to get provoke and unrelenting). I am proud to say that I was able to take the aggro off a teammate or two just in the nick of tiime, thereby saving them from certain death... several times during the run, too. Thank you, thank you very much. I may make a good tank yet. 😃  Would the team  have survived without me? probably, but I bet I saved some of them a few visits to the nurse or a handful of wakies. 

Edited by Six-Six
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10 hours ago, Rinwen said:

Ok, ket me rephrase, because I do believe no class, in any game should be necessary per se, and hold up a group.

 

Actually, and specifically, the person said, "...not wanted because they don't bring anything to the table that other ATs don't do better..."

 

I'll still play, and thoroughly enjoy him... just curious if he'd ever be needed/wanted in an endgame group.

In general, I tend to agree that any specific AT should not be necessary for average content.

 

Back on live, it was thought, more so than now, that Tanks were sorely needed in most content.

As I pointed out earlier, Repeat Offenders disagreed, and then went on to demonstrate why they were correct in their disagreement.


I'm sure that a group of 8 Masterminds could do the same thing...if you could find 8 computers that wouldn't break down and cry at the mere though of 48 Mastermind pets plus all the buff and debuff powers being active at the same time. Not to mention any other pets the MM had available to toss out.

 

I know my computer would flip me off, and have a heart attack.

And probably burst into flame just out of spite.

 

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22 minutes ago, Twisted Toon said:

I'm sure that a group of 8 Masterminds could do the same thing...if you could find 8 computers that wouldn't break down and cry at the mere though of 48 Mastermind pets plus all the buff and debuff powers being active at the same time. Not to mention any other pets the MM had available to toss out.

The all-MM ITF that I participated in back on Live was a gas. Of course, with eight sets of pets that were all obstacles to travel, sometimes the tactics got a little crazy until we got it sorted out to let the melee pets go in first. But the steamroller visuals were amazing, if laggy.

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12 hours ago, Rinwen said:

Someone told me, since I have one, that leveling a Tanker, (my favorite is my INV/SS), is pointless if I ever have interest in "endgame group" content.

I'll be blunt.  Some people are clueless and full of opinions.  It sounds like you ran into the CoH equivalent of a political 'pundit'.

 

Realistically, though, it sounds like you ran into someone who either doesn't like tanks or doesn't know how to play them well.  Tanks absolutely bring value to a team.  And I will make a flat-out factual statement that, for SOME end-game content, having a tank is better than having some other AT substitute for one.  There is almost no situation where you REQUIRE a tank.  There are many situations where you are better off having one.

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I used to hail from Infinity.  Mainly on Everlasting, now.

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12 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

The all-MM ITF that I participated in back on Live was a gas. Of course, with eight sets of pets that were all obstacles to travel, sometimes the tactics got a little crazy until we got it sorted out to let the melee pets go in first. But the steamroller visuals were amazing, if laggy.

Scuse me, pardon me.

 

Pardon me, scuse me.

 

No, please, you go ahead.

 

I wouldn't think of it, you can go. 

 

Oh, allow me.

 

Why thank you, you're most kind.

 

On and on, lol.

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Tankers are very useful in the End Game.  Part of this always depends on a teams style.  But part of it is almost hard and fast not changing.  Take the BAF for instance.  In general, you want a Tank to pull the AVs to the tennis court.  No, you do not have to do it that way.  No, you do not need a Tank.  You are going to want a Tank to pull the AVs to the tennis court.  I tanked a high Psi damage i Trial in my Dark armor Brute.  practically made for the job, 90% psi resist.  and someone needed to hold agro.  Did it need to be a Brute with 90% psi resist, high health, and the best self heal in the game?  No.  But it was just easier.  I think i used my heal once in that entire trial.  When I play a squishy (rarely, although I am experimenting again) I always try to find a Tank to work near.  Whether that is low level teams or incarnate teams.  You can shed agro by hopping over the Tank and getting the Tank between you and w/e you just pissed off.  works 100% of the time 90% of the time.  After that quick reset I can go back to blasting or doming or w/e.  

 

Are Tanks absolutely necessary?  absolutely not.  This is not WoW.  When redside was designed the Devs envisioned MMs being the Redside Tanks.  But Redside teams had no patience for the pets and developed ROFLSTOMP tactics.  The whole mission is one long drive-by on a good Redside team.  and half the time they are using semi-squishy fire armor Brutes to pull it off.  

 

I have seen trollers farm with more style and nearly as fast as any Fire brute.  crazy to watch.  As long as the trollers and doms on a team keep track of the mob behavior they can handle all the agro in regular play, at least with a good team.  The trick is to mez, buying time to kill.  Which means people need to kill lol.

 

But it sure makes life easier to have Tanks.  Many people enjoy running Tanks.  Just sort of works itself out.

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14 hours ago, Rinwen said:

Someone told me, since I have one, that leveling a Tanker, (my favorite is my INV/SS), is pointless if I ever have interest in "endgame group" content.  I'd be better off with a Brute, which I also have, or Scrapper, which I have so many of, they're coming out of my ears, lol.


Someone told you wrong.

In End Game, everything is useful.  Even if not particularly well built.
When well built, they're even better.

Play what you want.
Worry about the prejudices when you have nothing better to do.

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If you want to be godlike, pick anything.

If you want to be GOD, pick a TANK!

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12 hours ago, Grouchybeast said:

Maybe this is server dependent, but I've never had anyone turn down any of my characters for any teams on HC or on Live, or even souded slightly disappointed.


I was booted off a team on Live (Freedom) for being a Force FIelder instead of a "[email protected]"

I look at it as "They've done me a favor."

 

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If you want to be godlike, pick anything.

If you want to be GOD, pick a TANK!

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1 hour ago, Hyperstrike said:


I was booted off a team on Live (Freedom) for being a Force FIelder instead of a "[email protected]"

I look at it as "They've done me a favor."

 


Heh, yep.  I was booted from a Hollows team back around Issue 4 because I was on a Radiation/Dark Blast Defender and wasn’t “a real healer.”

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5 hours ago, Hyperstrike said:


I was booted off a team on Live (Freedom) for being a Force FIelder instead of a "[email protected]"

I look at it as "They've done me a favor."

 

I think you may have actually been booted for using the term "force fielder" rather than the more appropriate term "bubbler" 😀

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On an 8 man endgame team everyone is about 3/8s unneeded. That's just down to how teams snowball faster than the enemies can. A 5 man would be more balanced Vs +4*8.

 

Player power creep just outpaces mobs.

Edited by Carnifax
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Another caveat I've noticed is that the recent incarnation of the game has made it possible for any AT to play certain roles (i.e. a sentinel play the role of a tank, an MM play the role as a tank, a brute play the role as a tank, etc...) but none of them will ever be as tanky as a tank... in the same way a widow will never match the crits of a stalker, or a fortunata (as much as I love them) be as dominating as a... erm... dominator... or controller. 😃

from my limited newb wisdom, the one take away I've learned is that: play what makes you happy... each person will have something different that floats their goat. 

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*deep breathe* 

....just do it....

 

The real issue the needs to be discussed : .......Tank without taunt..............Why would do this ??

 

*ducks*

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2 hours ago, SuperPlyx said:

*deep breathe* 

....just do it....

 

The real issue the needs to be discussed : .......Tank without taunt..............Why would do this ??

 

*ducks*

I was going to respond to Carnifax above.  Yes 3/8 of a team rolling hot is unneeded.  A super hot ROFLSTOMP team develops a leapfrog rythym working 1 1/2 to 2 giant pulls at a time.  

 

Now, about that Taunt...  If I build a Tank, I take Taunt.  If I build a Brute, I do not.  This is partly historical, partly style. 

 

First, the history.  I started Redside, on Brutes.  A few months after Good vs Evil came out.  There was no inherent fitness.  There was an extra power pick required for a travel power.  So you are 4 power picks down from what you get today.  I soloed a lot, still do.  I ran heavy.  Still mostly do.  Meaning a tendency to Invulnerability builds, which, even on SOs, a SS/Invul build is mean.  When I started to team I learned people just wanted me to run into a mob, maybe "pull" with mutagen or taser inherent origin power.  THey did not shame you for not taking taunt, not on live teams Redside.  Some complained in public channels.  sure, but i cannot recall being shamed for not having taunt.  I carry resentments way too long, I would remember lol.  It worked.  Redside ROFLSTOMP tactics just require you to cannonball and take the Alpha (and Beta, and...) surviving that to continue on.  Or being able to pull and take whatever hate you get for that.

 

Second, the Style.  Picking up from the last paragraph.  Taunt is largely unnecessary in modern tactics.  My current main is a Dark/Dark Brute.  I have Tanked I-trials with it.  I have no Taunt....AND a Stealth Aura.  The Brute is hiding.  But with a damage aura, a fear aura, and a stun aura going once i cannonball into the midst of 17 bad guys and drop a few AoEs they tend to ignore my teammates.  They are 'taunted.'

 

Lastly.  My Tanks (I do have a couple) ALWAYS take Taunt.  To me, and this is personal, A Tank is not a melee damage dealer.  A Tank is one of the easiest controllers in the game (well, to run it PRO requires deep knowledge, but to start...) to run.  The control power is forcing the enemies to only attack you.  The build is designed to soak all the damage they will throw at you for doing your job.  It is a beautiful mechanic and a perfect platform to run it on.  

 

But Taunt is not necessary in modern CoX.  Then again, neither are Tanks necessary.  The Agro mechanic is necessary for a fun game.  Understanding how mobs will react and taking advantage of that is required for fun play.  But you do not need a Tank to do that or Taunt power.  

 

Tanks are the epitome of controlling mobs using the "Taunted" power.  If you enjoy that playstyle my friends you will always find a home on a City of Villains, er Heroes, game server.  The power is so great that they put a hard cap of 17 mobs on the thing.  It is freaking mind control.  So, Tank on, and Taunt on, and enjoy the battle.

Edited by Snarky
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I almost always end up taking taunt on a brute.  It isn't a priority, like it would be on a tanker.  It waits for the late levels where you'd really rather have more slots than another power anyways, but at least Taunt doesn't need slots to be useful. 


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People are entitled to their opinions but those are not facts. 

I love my inv/ss tanker and play her +3x8 and enjoy the difficulty I have to get through a mission or when I play as a team.


Long live City of Heroes

www.cityofgaymers.com

 

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21 hours ago, Rinwen said:

He never said, nor did I say that he said, to play something else.

 

Who is he?  All I'll say is that he's a Lv 50, fully incarnated Brute who gave me some power leveling, and then offered me 100,000,000 Inf, (which I did NOT accept... Yomo's 20 mil Inf gift was enough), because he was at the Inf cap, and needed to get rid of some.

 

A) I'd say someone like that probably has enough game experience to know something. 

B) Again, he never tried to dissuade me from playing a Tank, just said that in today's endgame world, they aren't needed, or particularly desirable because other ATs outperform them in damage, and damage is king.

   B.2) Many here have agreed that NO AT is really needed at the maxed out level... some saying Tankers are more situational, (probably true of many/all ATs)

   B.3) I've read the "damage is king in this game" many, many times, so I suspect there's some truth there. 

 

Between A) - B.3) above, there was the ring of truth to what he said.

 

Because I do use critical thinking skills, I came here seeking more opinions. 

 

As I said in my OP, even if 100% true, I'd still play my INV/SS Tanker alot, and I'll spec him with Hurl and Laser eyes, (usually regarded as pointless and a waste of a power pick... choose one or the other, not both, so the build advice goes), because that will be fun for me... I just won't go to the expense of kitting out a separate "team build,"

It sounds like a lot of people are deliberately mischaracterizing how things went, even when you outlined it above, so I'll say that the person - who may or may not have been a pure farmer - was likely trying to help and assumed that you were looking for the most efficient option. As such, they provided some facts (Tankers aren't needed) and pushed a common complaint you see on the forums from people seeking either increased difficulty options or nerfs, which is that damage is all that matters and so Tankers are not desired. That part (highlighted) is the opinion. As has been said just above:

3 hours ago, duane said:

People are entitled to their opinions but those are not facts.

 

Damage is king isn't a universal truth; it does speed the game up if you're planning on min/maxing, and there is very little that a Tanker can do that a Brute cannot also do while also dealing (usually) higher damage, but most teams aren't trying to min/max their team constructions like that unless, as mentioned earlier in the thread, they are going for speedrun records (or are into PvP, where it's just lol melee). Some people prefer that style of play, some people would rather take their time and socialize and goof around while running missions, some people would rather socialize and goof around instead of running missions, and most people fall into all of those categories at different points based on their mood and available time.

 

So no, Tankers are not undesirable, and you will be welcome on nearly any team through all levels as long as you don't act like a jerk. Whether or not you use that information to make a second optimized team build is up to you, but even without one you would still be just as welcome on the same teams.

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Are tankers useless in endgame?

 

No.

 

Hell they are pretty damn useful in the first incarnate trial of the game: BAF.

 

Your buddy is wrong. Full stop.

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12 hours ago, Carnifax said:

On an 8 man endgame team everyone is about 3/8s unneeded. That's just down to how teams snowball faster than the enemies can. A 5 man would be more balanced Vs +4*8.

 

Player power creep just outpaces mobs.


But MY tankers are larger than life!
(Don't tell that to my lady tanks!  They dislike being called "large" or "big" or anything like that.  They'll boot your head!)
EVERYONE should team with my Tankers!  Everyone NEEDS to.
If not, your life will never be complete!

=)

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If you want to be godlike, pick anything.

If you want to be GOD, pick a TANK!

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This is a somewhat ironic thread given that a year ago when the Tanker patch hit, many cried that Brutes would no longer be relevant. With the AoE improvements baked into their inherent, I personally would never consider rolling a Brute over a Tanker as the later has rock solid performance now, and the damage indifference just doesn't mean enough.

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22 hours ago, Apparition said:


Heh, yep.  I was booted from a Hollows team back around Issue 4 because I was on a Radiation/Dark Blast Defender and wasn’t “a real healer.”

Heh. Early (single digit issues, probably 3 or 4, don't think redside was around yet) in the game, I had someone insist that controllers didn't have Empathy and they needed "a healer."

 

... as I was standing there (already invited and part of the team) on my Ice/Emp controller.

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Primarily on Everlasting. Squid afficionado. Former creator of Copypastas. General smartalec.

 

Please, if you feel the need to shoot down someone's suggestion by saying "It's not worth the devs time," don't. The devs are big boys and girls and can determine for themselves what is or is not worth their time, they don't need you to do it.

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