Was there ever any talk about rolling back some of the Regen Nerf's

[Mansome]

I was wondering if there was any plans to return instant healing into a toggle again or make it like what sentinels get? Right now Bio and will power both replaced this set and can do better with less effort and investment. Now would be a good time to look at old stuff and revert back. I am not asking for the Regen that could tank hamidon but at least make it a toggle again.

[SwitchFade]

Nerf Regen.

[summers]

The topic that never dies.

 

Unlike /regen, which dies all the time

[Vanden]

Only in the context of proceeding to then replace them with even better nerfs.

[Huron]

We could go back to making I.H. a toggle & then making I.H. and Integration mutually exclusive again. (Anyone remember that disaster?)

[SwitchFade]

Here's what should be done...

 

Turn IH into an auto passive DEGEN...

 

Spend 4 hours in costume creator.... Think of amazing name... Log into Atlas...

 

Dead.

 

Word to the mother.

[Psi-bolt]

I don't see how you help Regen at this point absent clear and flagrant violations of the Cottage Rule.  But once you do that, you just wind up with Willpower. 

 

Absent that, perhaps you could turn Instant Healing into a Smashing, Lethal, Toxic resistance toggle with a small amount of actual regen (like 100%-200%) on top.  That would fix a lot, but it would still be weaker than Willpower.

[CrudeVileTerror]

Bump Revive up the list, and make it a Cheat Death Power.  Auto-activates when the player gets to 0 HP, prevents the Defeat, Heals, and then goes on cooldown.

Thematic.  Low-impact change.  Unique.  Doesn't cross the line in to Willpower or Bio Armour territory.

[expeditor]

I'd be interested to try the Sentinel version of the set on a Scrapper or Brute - clicky dull pain and revive get mixed up to become auto dismiss pain (+HP) and second wind (heal and +HP if used while alive, revive if not), clicky instant healing (+regen) becomes toggle instant regeneration (absorb). The set becomes generally less clicky, absorb offers a bit of extra layering while staying in theme, the revive becomes more than just a freebie awaken. I think they were nicely thought out tweaks while they had the opportunity to make changes without upsetting the cottage rule, because it was a new AT.

[Draeth Darkstar]

That depends on what you mean by talk. People in general have been talking about it forever.

 

As far as I know, the only balance changes that have been talked about by Homecoming devs which aren't already in the wild are some form of nerf to Time Manipulation probably involving the Power Boost/Farsight combo and an indication that other old melee changes are likely to see buffs.

[SwitchFade]

Ok so. I'll do this one time only... And I'll deny I ever suggested anything BUT a nerf to regen...

 

Regen issue: too binary, either ok or dead, scale it enough to be ok... never dead.

 

There are several ways to go about improving the set, if one wanted to; however, it does perform well now, so it doesn't need much fixing. If we truly want to let's say... Refresh it? Then...

 

Return ih to a toggle, albeit a weak one. Incorporate scaling resist, similar to SR to smooth the curve below 50% health. Incorporate an instant revive auto on a cool down. Build in scaling regen debuff resist.

 

The idea is, like SR now vs before, there's a smoother curve. Right now you either out regen incoming dps, or you die quickly. There should e, below 50% health, a flattening of the curve, for both quality of play and realism. Call the scaling desensitization to pain thematically.

 

So, regen is medium at full health, and as health drops, regen begins to increase marginally, dma res scales up a bit and your rate of imminent dirt nap slows a bit, allowing time for regroup, hitting a clickie HUGE regen, or running away like a scared little regen.

 

None of this would be overpowered. That is, if you WANTED to change it...

 

Me? I want to...

 

NERF REGEN!!

[Coyote]

That suggestion states and addresses the basic problem (which has also been stated a few other times in the thread) with Regen... regeneration doesn't scale with damage the same way as Resist or Defense. And all other sets incorporate some regeneration, and Regen has some resistance. But a pure regeneration scheme is one that will inherently fail more suddenly... even if you balance it so that against average opposition it's as good as another set, it will improve far more quickly as the opposition weakens, and will start to fail a lot more quickly as the opposition strengthens.

 

So, sadly... any balance solution for Regen will unfortunately have to go away from regeneration/healing, and into mitigating incoming damage. So however you rationalize it... easy to cut but hard to damage, resilient to interior damage, whatever... you have to make the damage mitigation scale a bit more with the amount of incoming damage than we have currently.

[macskull]

21 hours ago, Mansome said:

I was wondering if there was any plans to return instant healing into a toggle again or make it like what sentinels get? Right now Bio and will power both replaced this set and can do better with less effort and investment. Now would be a good time to look at old stuff and revert back. I am not asking for the Regen that could tank hamidon but at least make it a toggle again.

You could return Regen to its launch-day glory and it would still be a bad set by today's standards.

[Snarky]

What if we lower some of the numbers on Regen?  

[nihilii]

10 hours ago, Coyote said:

So, sadly... any balance solution for Regen will unfortunately have to go away from regeneration/healing, and into mitigating incoming damage. So however you rationalize it... easy to cut but hard to damage, resilient to interior damage, whatever... you have to make the damage mitigation scale a bit more with the amount of incoming damage than we have currently.

I don't know if moving from regen/healing is truly necessary. If you start from CrudeVileTerror's suggestion, you're essentially adding an extra HP pool that comes in play only when needed. Beyond that, even without drastic power reworks, you could tweak numbers to the point the healing might be worth it. What if Reconstruction healed twice as much (essentially a full HP bar once slotted) and recharged twice as fast as the current cooldown? What if IH outright capped regen? What if all animations were shortened to ~0.5s for near instant casts (would help MoG especially)? What if Quick Recovery gave twice its buff, so Regen is truly the passive blue bar king and can focus on everything else?

I understand the point you're making. Regen is by nature alive with little effort or dead very fast. That dynamic can't be solved through Regen/Healing, but I also think we should embrace it as Regen's thing rather than as a problem to be solved. The true problem to be solved is Regen's overall performance.

 

Buffing Regen to the point it would be as good as other powersets in tough conditions would likely make it overpowered in easier times. But, there is room to move the needle in between "overpowered" and "the current state of things". Personally, I think it would be OK if Regen is somewhat easier to play than the average set in most content, and slightly harder to play in tough content. Regen mitigation being heavily tied to clicks implies time spent in animation times and not attacking, which should also be reflected in the metrics.

[Shred Monkey]

21 hours ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

Bump Revive up the list, and make it a Cheat Death Power.  Auto-activates when the player gets to 0 HP, prevents the Defeat, Heals, and then goes on cooldown.

Thematic.  Low-impact change.  Unique.  Doesn't cross the line in to Willpower or Bio Armour territory.

I like that.. just make sure it keeps toggles running, too.

[CrudeVileTerror]

I would hope that if it prevents the Defeat that would do double-duty of preventing Debt and preventing de-toggling.

Might want to also slap a 3 second Invulernability state on it too, just so the player isn't two-shot back down and has a chance to react.

 

At the very least, if such a change isn't made to Revive, I think the cooldown should be dropped to like 30 seconds.  If the whole schtick of the Set is falling down and getting up again, then there shouldn't really be any waiting for that to happen.

[Replacement]

We have enough threads on proposed fixes, and laughs too.

But to the thread topic: I hope not.

 

As was the case with Energy Melee, simply returning to the old isn't good enough. You either end up not fixing the problems or you've reintroduced old ones. 

There's just no good reason to look backwards, ever.  Better to focus on what the game needs the set to be now.

Edited January 23, 2021 by Replacement

[Coyote]

6 hours ago, nihilii said:

I understand the point you're making. Regen is by nature alive with little effort or dead very fast. That dynamic can't be solved through Regen/Healing, but I also think we should embrace it as Regen's thing rather than as a problem to be solved. The true problem to be solved is Regen's overall performance.

 

Well... due to how pure regeneration works vs incoming damage mitigation works, you still end up with the problem of "health drops off a cliff" with regen, while "health rolls down a slope" with other mitigation types. The shape of the curve remains the same, but the midpoint is moved.

Now, the idea of boosting mitigation as HPs go down is interesting, but I'm not sure it works with boosting regen or heals... in many situations where doubling the incoming damage doubles the rate of HP drop for OTHER types, doubling the damage could easily increase the rate of HP drop by 4x or 5x, for regen. Adding kind of a buffer effect will slow down this increase a bit, which is what we want, but I don't know that there is enough room... you'd probably have to double regen rates as HPs go down through a mixture of maxHP increase and regeneration.

 

What bothers me is the shape of the curve. We can move the centerpoint for today's "raised difficulty level" game, but unless we soften the cliff edge shape of the curve, the problem will persist, just take a slightly higher difficulty level to get there. If it can be done within Regen's base purview, with maxHP, HP, and Regeneration increases, that would be great. I"m just dubious.

[xl8]

On 1/22/2021 at 11:08 AM, CrudeVileTerror said:

Bump Revive up the list, and make it a Cheat Death Power.  Auto-activates when the player gets to 0 HP, prevents the Defeat, Heals, and then goes on cooldown.

Have regen as the buiild that can't die. No badges for you, but once your health hits zero, you continue regenerating. The NPC/mob on top of you will keep attacking, but you have a grace period where you can run away until 10% of your health is back up. Or, keep fighting and dying if you prefer.

[SeraphimKensai]

Lol gone are the days when a regen scrapper could stand toe to toe with Hamidon before EOE's existed.

 

Kind of a joke suggestion: Move Revive to tier 1 power, make it an auto, so you automatically res when killed.

 

Otherwise realistically, the powerset really needs a complete overhaul.

[Xenosone]

Could give mog exactly what paragon protectors get and change nothing else. 

[Glacier Peak]

There is a regen cap in this game, is there a damage received per second cap or is that just a defeat?

[Haijinx]

Increase the resist vs S/L/psi

 

Replace dull pain with a smaller passive hp buff, and a small resist to all.

 

Give it Defense to Environmental and Psi. 

 

Give it a AOE scaling regen power with a to hit debuff instead of its heal and IH

 

Replace MOG with a nice no drawback resist and recovery buff. 

 

Change the effects from green to yellow.

 

 

There.  Its fixed.

[MoisesG]

Replace Dull Pain with a Self-destruct type power that just puts you out of your misery when you start fighting.