Expectations

[Shred Monkey]

On 2/6/2021 at 1:36 PM, Troo said:

Should all archetypes be able to solo at +4/8?

This needs to be qualified.  There's a world of difference between soloing Council radio missions at +4x8 versus soloing Longbow, or Vanguard Swords, or IDF when they're heavy with Awakened spawns, etc.   I'm sure there's going to be people who say "oh.. I can do anything on 4x8" but with very few exceptions it's not 100% true.  And yes, I'm aware of the tank gods thread.  I have 2 tanks myself who do the things they do.  I'm telling you from experience, they have enemy groups that dramatically slow them down,  There are AVs they can't beat at +4.  And they absolutely feel the benefits from adding a teammate or 3.

 

On 2/6/2021 at 1:36 PM, Troo said:

Do players who can solo +4/8 at level 50 have an outsized impact on teams or other players? Maybe this is as intended?

I think this question answers itself.  Of course there's imbalance between players who have huge builds and those who don't.  The truth is that there's not really any 8 man content in this game that needs 8 players.   Therefore, the reason people feel unneeded on an 8 man team is because they aren't needed.   Even that "4x8 soloer" feels unneeded when they are not going full speed ahead because, just like everyone else, they aren't needed.

 

[Apparition]

42 minutes ago, Shred Monkey said:

This needs to be qualified.  There's a world of difference between soloing Council radio missions at +4x8 versus soloing Longbow, or Vanguard Swords, or IDF when they're heavy with Awakened spawns, etc.   I'm sure there's going to be people who say "oh.. I can do anything on 4x8" but with very few exceptions it's not 100% true.  And yes, I'm aware of the tank gods thread.  I have 2 tanks myself who do the things they do.  I'm telling you from experience, they have enemy groups that dramatically slow them down,  There are AVs they can't beat at +4.  And they absolutely feel the benefits from adding a teammate or 3.

 

I think this question answers itself.  Of course there's imbalance between players who have huge builds and those who don't.  The truth is that there's not really any 8 man content in this game that needs 8 players.   Therefore, the reason people feel unneeded on an 8 man team is because they aren't needed.   Even that "4x8 soloer" feels unneeded when they are not going full speed ahead because, just like everyone else, they aren't needed.

 

 

110% agreed.  That's the concept a lot of folks just do not get.  No one is needed on a team.  Absolutely no one.  That's part of the beauty of City of Heroes!  To change that is to change City of Heroes to become more Holy Trinity oriented.  No thank you.

[Shred Monkey]

42 minutes ago, Shred Monkey said:

Even that "4x8 soloer" feels unneeded when they are not going full speed ahead because, just like everyone else, they aren't needed.

OK... quoting myself here because I want to expand on this in more detail.

 

Everyone encounters the same experience more or less.  The difference isn't in their builds, it's in their head.  It's in their response to the situation.   Some people see themselves not mattering to the team and it bothers them.  They need validation, and without that they want this issue fixed.  They look outward for someone or something to blame for how they feel. 

 

On the other hand, some people aren't bothered by this situation at all.  So much so that don't even understand what the problem is, exactly.  Why don't you want the free rewards you're getting? 

 

This is how life works.  I'd say we need both types of people, but that's not true.  Like the game, nobody is needed in life's experiences either.

The solution... be happy... and share the happiness with others.  If everyone on the team provides one snarky comment per mission, then that's a pretty damn great team.  Even a regular "LoL" to other's snarky comments is worth a lot.   There's no build or AT requirement for this.  Just sit back, relax, and enjoy the game.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 hour ago, Shred Monkey said:

"oh.. I can do anything on 4x8" but with very few exceptions it's not 100% true.  And yes, I'm aware of the tank gods thread.  I have 2 tanks myself who do the things they do.  I'm telling you from experience, they have enemy groups that dramatically slow them down,  There are AVs they can't beat at +4.

My BZBs repond with, "Stupid Rularuu." Siege at +4 halted my god tank as I was still getting incarnated out. His heal outdid my DPS. I should revisit that fight after the next respec. And this was with a character that now takes about 1.5 hours to solo a normal max diff ITF. So, yea, exceptions occur. That's a good thing.

[Frosticus]

15 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

My BZBs repond with, "Stupid Rularuu." Siege at +4 halted my god tank as I was still getting incarnated out. His heal outdid my DPS. I should revisit that fight after the next respec. And this was with a character that now takes about 1.5 hours to solo a normal max diff ITF. So, yea, exceptions occur. That's a good thing.

Unrelated, but what arc is big robot seige found in thru ouro? I can only ever find him when I encounter him leveling up.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Frosticus said:

Unrelated, but what arc is big robot seige found in thru ouro? I can only ever find him when I encounter him leveling up.

Maria's arc. But he shows up randomly, if I recall correctly, so if anyone knows of a better way to get him in a mission, I'd love to hear it. Or would it be easiest to create a quick AE mission with him? Would he have his real stats?

[Infinitum]

10 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Maria's arc. But he shows up randomly, if I recall correctly, so if anyone knows of a better way to get him in a mission, I'd love to hear it. Or would it be easiest to create a quick AE mission with him? Would he have his real stats?

He is in the BAF also.

[Ohsirus]

I was just thinking the other day that it maybe time for a +5/8 option. I see some of the other Servers offer it.

[Shred Monkey]

49 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

My BZBs repond with, "Stupid Rularuu." Siege at +4 halted my god tank as I was still getting incarnated out. His heal outdid my DPS. I should revisit that fight after the next respec. And this was with a character that now takes about 1.5 hours to solo a normal max diff ITF. So, yea, exceptions occur. That's a good thing.

Check out Lt. Sefu Tendaji from IIRC Guassian's arc.  He's my latest frustration. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

23 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

He is in the BAF also.

Can't start that solo.

[Infinitum]

3 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Can't start that solo.

I thought you could if you locked the group then queued.

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

I thought you could if you locked the group then queued.

I'll try again but last time I did it just sat there doing nothing.

 

EDIT: "There are too few players to own the event."

Edited February 9, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Apparition]

1 minute ago, Infinitum said:

I thought you could if you locked the group then queued.

 

That doesn't work for Incarnate trials.

[Infinitum]

4 minutes ago, Apparition said:

 

That doesn't work for Incarnate trials.

Ah my mistake - never tried it just thought I remembered reading somewhere that you could.

[Frosticus]

32 minutes ago, Ohsirus said:

I was just thinking the other day that it maybe time for a +5/8 option. I see some of the other Servers offer it.

How does that work at lvl 50? Did they add lvl 55 mobs? I don't think 54+1 is the same 

[Yomo Kimyata]

11 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

 

EDIT: "There are too few players to PWN the event."

fixed that for ya!

[Ohsirus3]

9 minutes ago, Frosticus said:

How does that work at lvl 50? Did they add lvl 55 mobs? I don't think 54+1 is the same 

Not sure, but the patch notes are mobs -0 to +6 and team sizes up to 16.

[Bill Z Bubba]

I found big robot Siege in General Villains. And there's now a big robot on the other side of this asteroid just waitin for a beatdown as a lvl 54 AV. Woot.

 

Edit: Not a woot. This is the BAF version with his rings of death. He doesn't have those in Maria's arc.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Bill Z Bubba

[Ukase]

13 hours ago, Olly said:

Before I get into my 2 cents, I'd like to ask you to see things from a different perspective: that in CoH, *Solo* is the end game, and *teaming* is for relaxing and having a good time.  Hear me out:

 

I've ended up playing solo more times now, just because I find it more challenging. That is not to say I don't enjoy groups. I like the laid-backness I can play when I'm in one as compared to when I *choose* to tackle +4/*8 content. In doing this very many times, I realised an amazing thing about CoH. The solo content can actually be *a lot harder* than group content and be equally rewarding.

Interesting. For me, it's the complete opposite. I solo for a more laid back time because I can stop, speed, kill through, kill all, stealth - whatever I want to do. On a team, I find myself torn between finding the boss at the end and helping the inf-poor teammate who somehow has never managed to slot a celerity:stealth despite them being quite affordable for a level 50. But not everyone does things the way I would. But, I digress. 

Solo content is as easy as it can get for me. Teamplay is far more difficult for me, as it requires I pay a lot more attention to teammates, rather than just my avatar. Not only that, because my builds are as good as I know how to get them, and some of my teammates lack the time/resources/inclination/knowledge to make a solid build, I find myself having to do more than I would if I were solo. 

 

Should all archetypes be able to solo?   All AT's and powerset can and do solo. All of them. Some are more efficient. Some are more survivable. But they all do. 

Should all archetypes be able to solo at +4/8?  They don't? The only folks I know that don't are chasing merits and doing speed runs, so they reduce difficulty for more efficiency. Not saying a level 12 Controller can do this; or any AT at that level. I'm assuming level 50, but at that level each AT/powerset has all the tools they need to do +4/8, if they're inclined to take that amount of trouble. Not saying it's easy. Not saying some aren't defeated more often than other AT/Powersets. But they can all do it. 

Is there a difference in performance expectations for content below level 50 versus level 50+? Of course there is. Why would anyone expect the same performance expectations with fewer powers and slots? 

Should players be using Invention Origin enhancements by a specific level or range?  While it's optional, I see no reason why anyone would use SOs after level 30. The only reasons would be 
1. Challenge concept characters
2. Reluctance(or inability) to take time to earn inf through the market/farming. Yeah, they're expensive for these folks. For the rest of us who market/farm, we can buy anything in game we want, anytime we want. 
3. Inability to understand or general apathy towards a somewhat convoluted IO system. I know it now - but when it came out, it was confusing. There's a learning curve. Some folks just don't care that much. They know the SOs, the SOs worked in live, they work now. No sense fussing over the IOs in their minds. 

Do players who can solo +4/8 at level 50 have an outsized impact on teams or other players? Maybe this is as intended?
This varies. When you have a team of folks who can solo +4/8 --- which is pretty much everyone who uses IOs and has incarnates slotted - it's a basic steamroll, with the only real slowing down is for AVs. But when you have someone without IOs, it's certain they're likely to be defeated more often and dish out less damage and rely on team buffs more than those with Set bonuses. 

As intended? yes and no. I suspect the original devs knew that the community was large enough for folks who didn't want to fuss with IOs to find each other over time, or rely on the community to carry them to an extent. It's really not that big of an issue in my mind. I'd love it if all were IO'd to the gills, but I completely understand why some are not. 
They may not have the time. They may not care. They may lack the resources or the knowledge. 

It's a game. What they do doesn't really impact my fun that much at all. Play how you like, slot how you like. Go. Hunt. Kil Skulls. 

[Aberrant]

47 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

I found big robot Siege in General Villains. And there's now a big robot on the other side of this asteroid just waitin for a beatdown as a lvl 54 AV. Woot.

 

Edit: Not a woot. This is the BAF version with his rings of death. He doesn't have those in Maria's arc.

Luckily AE Siege and Nightstar don't have the scripting for resurrecting each other 😛

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Aberrant

[the1egend1ives]

On 2/6/2021 at 1:36 PM, Troo said:

It is apparent that continued power creep at higher levels closes the gap between archetypes and their associated roles. This is likely as intended and not a big deal in high level content.

Maybe expectations are the issue.

 

Should all archetypes be able to solo?

Should all archetypes be able to solo at +4/8?

Is there a difference in performance expectations for content below level 50 versus level 50+?

Should players be using Invention Origin enhancements by a specific level or range?

Do players who can solo +4/8 at level 50 have an outsized impact on teams or other players? Maybe this is as intended?

 

Understanding the intention can help set expectations.

 

Having an understanding of the direction the development team is going and plans moving forward even at a high level can keep the community informed.

 

1. Yes. I often solo missions to appreciate the game's content at my own pace. I'll stop to read the clues and check my chat for NPC dialogue.

 

2. No. I personally don't think any AT should be able to solo the game at +4/8. Since that's the max difficulty no matter what size team you are on, it makes teaming up a trivial process. What good is a defender's buffs or a tank's aggro when DPS can solo the game at its hardest and shrug off any damage?

 

3. Content under 50 feels fine because there's no power creep from incarnates or set bonuses. Personally I think 50+ content needs to be boosted considerably. At level 50, most players have incarnates + set bonuses and the game's content doesn't scale to it. What you effectively have are murder balls plowing through NPCs like they were level 1. I don't feel the crunch of my attacks because most NPCs are dead in under a second, no matter what level they are.

 

4. As soon as they have the influence, they should purchase IOs. Having to constantly replace SOs is a chore and a waste of money.

 

5. A resounding yes. See points 2 and 3.

[The Chairman]

6 hours ago, Frosticus said:

Unrelated, but what arc is big robot seige found in thru ouro? I can only ever find him when I encounter him leveling up.

I am not sure if the big robot version of Siege is present in Maria's old arc, but he certainly is not present in her new one. That said, he does appear in one of the non-story missions you can get from Maria. The mission is "Take down the WarWorks". The map is tiny, and you need to beat up Siege and take down seven shield generators.

[Doomguide2005]

8 hours ago, Shred Monkey said:

Check out Lt. Sefu Tendaji from IIRC Guassian's arc.  He's my latest frustration. 

Oh god yes.  Three of us couldn't dent him.  Wasn't till the 4th friend joined us with his Ice/Rad that we could take him down.  Been too long but as I recall we were just damage characters and really needed that debuff.  Pretty sure he was just an EB as well.  I'll take a pack of Rularuu any day on my Claws/SR comparatively ... though no envenomed daggers existed when we took him on.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Doomguide2005
Typos

[nihilii]

18 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Edit: Not a woot. This is the BAF version with his rings of death. He doesn't have those in Maria's arc.

Cool to know in itself. Now I want to try it.

 

I'm not sure I have a single character that can take on Maria's Siege at +4. His heal is truly massive and fast recharging, and he has (I think? wouldn't be hard to check for sure) 50% res to Smashing and Energy. The two combined are a showstopper for many of the conventionally powerful AV builds. But then again, dualboxing with a cold defender makes the fight a breeze. Maybe Demon/Cold MM, then.

Edited February 10, 2021 by nihilii

[Uun]

There are two Sieges listed in the new COD. They both have 50% res to S/L/C, 75% to psi, 30% to Ne

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/powerset.html?pset=praetorians.siege

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/powerset.html?pset=praetorians.p_siege

 

The rings appear to be a separate entity.

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/powerset.html?pset=praetorians.sequestration_field