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4 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

What I do know for certain is the game is not rigged for the little guy, you can always have your day in court but you better bring your A-game.  

Uh huh. I'm sure you're also a ninja, an English teacher and an ex-navy seal. Don't worry dude, I'm impressed. 😮

 

If you've really studied law then you shouldn't have any problem explaining the Supreme Court's reasoning behind requiring an affirmative defense for copyright and trademark holders.

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If you'd rather be Lame-O the Wonder Clown instead of Homelander then you're playing the wrong game.

 

Thank you doesn't even come close to the gratitude I have for the Homecoming developers for resurrecting Paragon City.

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2 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

No I am not!

 

I purchased City of Heroes and paid hundreds of dollars over the years for it. I own it and US courts have already ruled that I have a right to play the game that I've purchased. Because I am not stealing anything.

 

The development team could, in theory, get into some civil (not criminal) trouble because of unauthorized use of IP. But understand that they cannot get into any sort of criminal trouble either because they also are not stealing.

 

My advice is to stick to what you know, because you certainly do not know US law. And don't bother making a moral argument, because you don't have the market cornered on morality either. In short you're just wrong.

Good thing I don't need your advice. This is what I know: the laws try (and often fail) to dictate what is just at the time of a law being passed. But what is just is not always what is moral. And I do agree, I have no high ground in moral behavior. That is my point. None of us do. Which brings to surface the irony in making a judgement call about character when the very chat logs are in a game that isn't supported or endorsed by the owners of the IP. 

I don't say that to be mean or rude. But it's the truth. You can say whatever you like about the law, but it is true that NCSoft pulled the plug. It is true that nobody has bought it from them. If they have agreed to the HC team's use of it, they have not shared this with us. Ergo, it is wrong. Surely you can see that. If you can't, there's just no discussion to be had. I freely admit to my own hypocrisy by playing it. 

Do I think they are evil? No. I think they are doing all of us a great service. But let's be candid. At best, it's morally ambiguous. The notion that someone could be a heathen if they had pineapple on a pizza....please. 

Now I get that they are mostly joking about that. Mostly. 
But, I know the context. If not, the text I've seen would cast them in a different light. And that is the basic point trying to be made. You can't simply monitor chat and expect to reach a conclusion about character. Not chat in game. Because people joke, they get silly. Almost none of it should be taken seriously. 

I just wish I had a viable solution to offer. But I don't. 

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10 hours ago, Mezmera said:

What's mystifying to me is how on board some people seem to be with being recorded 24/7 with their guard down like they've never said anything naughty and being judged by that, not to mention all of the self identifying factors that could be gleaned in such an unguarded state which employers are not allowed ever to pry into during the review process beyond the qualifications relevant to the job description.

 

Personally, I see how one behaves in game as perfectly relevant to the job description of a GM - they act as customer support representatives for the Homecoming community, in game and out.

 

Is it guaranteed to be accurately relevant? Of course not. Neither is a resume/CV or an interview. Everything should be taken as a whole and with a grain of salt - hiring is always as much an art as a science.

 

I expect, 100%, that anything I do online, in any service, in any context may be used to judge me, for better or worse. I consider anyone who does not expect this to be foolish. If it is shared on any kind of social media site or MMO-like shared world, I expect it to be logged, and logs can always be reviewed. Even if I say something private using a service or tool that sets expectations of strict privacy, if I am sharing things with anyone, no matter how private I think it may be, anyone I shared it with could share it beyond my default expectations. If you are actually worried something may be taken out of context if exposed out of context, maybe it's best not done or said. We all do it sometimes, but for it to really be used against you, you have to either make a habit of it or have made a few spectacularly poor choices.

 

Do I think just anyone should have access to things said with even just a veneer of privacy? No. I would not expect, for example, for Homecoming team members to share things I said in private channels, DMs or team chat with anyone outside of those contexts and would object to that unless it was for legal reasons. But I absolutely expect that Homecoming staff may see logs of my behavior, and what I do or say in those logs may influence Homecoming staff's opinions of me. I also expect that of social services like Facebook, Twitter and the like. These are moderated services, and even "private" communications are never truly private from staff with sufficient levels of access.

 

There was a period where stories circulated of prospective employers asking interviewed candidates for their login to social media accounts. I think this was preposterous, and I would have mostly politely walked out of any such interview. However, if I was being interviewed for a position where I used the same company's social media tools to interact with customer users? I would absolutely expect that company to review my interactions on their own systems. Honestly, I would expect them to look at what I said and did if they were hiring me as something like a programmer or office manager, but I would feel that was less relevant..

 

If you are worried that how you act might that could make an organization (be it a paying job or volunteer gig) look at you funny if they knew about it, then maybe you shouldn't be doing that anywhere that it could come out. I wouldn't. If you shared it with someone, it's not private, and if you did it somewhere that doesn't explicitly promise you privacy at a technological level, it was even less so.

 

 

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4 hours ago, UberGuy said:

 

Personally, I see how one behaves in game as perfectly relevant to the job description of a GM - they act as customer support representatives for the Homecoming community, in game and out.

 

Is it guaranteed to be accurately relevant? Of course not. Neither is a resume/CV or an interview. Everything should be taken as a whole and with a grain of salt - hiring is always as much an art as a science.

 

I expect, 100%, that anything I do online, in any service, in any context may be used to judge me, for better or worse. I consider anyone who does not expect this to be foolish. If it is shared on any kind of social media site or MMO-like shared world, I expect it to be logged, and logs can always be reviewed. Even if I say something private using a service or tool that sets expectations of strict privacy, if I am sharing things with anyone, no matter how private I think it may be, anyone I shared it with could share it beyond my default expectations. If you are actually worried something may be taken out of context if exposed out of context, maybe it's best not done or said. We all do it sometimes, but for it to really be used against you, you have to either make a habit of it or have made a few spectacularly poor choices.

 

Do I think just anyone should have access to things said with even just a veneer of privacy? No. I would not expect, for example, for Homecoming team members to share things I said in private channels, DMs or team chat with anyone outside of those contexts and would object to that unless it was for legal reasons. But I absolutely expect that Homecoming staff may see logs of my behavior, and what I do or say in those logs may influence Homecoming staff's opinions of me. I also expect that of social services like Facebook, Twitter and the like. These are moderated services, and even "private" communications are never truly private from staff with sufficient levels of access.

 

There was a period where stories circulated of prospective employers asking interviewed candidates for their login to social media accounts. I think this was preposterous, and I would have mostly politely walked out of any such interview. However, if I was being interviewed for a position where I used the same company's social media tools to interact with customer users? I would absolutely expect that company to review my interactions on their own systems. Honestly, I would expect them to look at what I said and did if they were hiring me as something like a programmer or office manager, but I would feel that was less relevant..

 

If you are worried that how you act might that could make an organization (be it a paying job or volunteer gig) look at you funny if they knew about it, then maybe you shouldn't be doing that anywhere that it could come out. I wouldn't. If you shared it with someone, it's not private, and if you did it somewhere that doesn't explicitly promise you privacy at a technological level, it was even less so.

 

 

 

Okay I'm with you.  Lets turn all emails public, all dms public, every government communication public.  Lets put all the chips on the table so we can sort out every person that speaks in a manner we do not like so we can toss them out of our society.   Who'll be left?  What's the point of even having private communications available through those same online services?  

 

But then do we follow along with these people when they go to a children's hospital, or go help out at an old folks home and a bunch of other heroic things you won't see?  No?  We just ascertain our judgment from some text online likely taken out of context?   On that same token you could have the smoothest talking person with an impeccable chat history who's never had any front facing responsibility having to deal with a myriad of personalities on this game, but hey they speak so well.

 

The current background check procedures aren't even perfect as it is and now you think adding this weapon will benefit any of us or your family and friends? 

 

I know better to watch what I say online.  But there is some expectancy of privacy if I choose a channel that advertises it as such, like emails, dm's or private tells.  Because I know better about what I say online, doesn't mean other people are savvy to the fact that what you put online stays online, especially those just growing up with internet.  

 

By all means lets get the ball rolling on this into law, take these thoughts to any anti-discrimination agency to see what they have to say.  

Here's a quick list to save you some time: https://www.thelaw.com/law/list-of-state-fair-employment-practices-agencies.330/

 

The very first reply in this topic was ideally what you should see.  They seemed qualified now hopefully they were able to prove it behind the scenes to the HC team and then HC could identify that this person did have an active account and for how long and then any in game friends they could reference.

 

Edit: 

Way back when I first chimed in on this topic I said that it's one thing to be able to pull up all of the prospects forum and in game global chat posts and ask to have to explain yourself which I still think is shaky ground.  But even tells and team chat that's a bit "preposterous" as you say.  

 

Edit 2: 

There's already quite a lot from me in this thread to take in.  I'm beating a dead horse for some obviously.  Take what I'm heeding as you may but I need to let others chime in if they want.  

 

Edited by Mezmera
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7 hours ago, Mezmera said:

Okay I'm with you.  Lets turn all emails public, all dms public, every government communication public.  Lets put all the chips on the table so we can sort out every person that speaks in a manner we do not like so we can toss them out of our society.

 

That is a willful distortion of my post, despite you having quoted it in its entirety. I wrote a section that makes clear I would not condone this.

 

There is a difference between outing every communication made in a presumption of privacy, no matter how flawed, and assuming that privacy extends to a level where you cannot ever be judged by review of supposedly "private" interactions in social media or shared worlds when they are relevant to jobs managing those worlds.

 

I do not condone the former. I think objecting to the latter is obtuse. And I contend that slippery slope arguments are a form of logical fallacy when the link between the thing in question and the projected outcome are tenuous. Letting companies or organizations view their own systems for behavior of employees who will support those systems does not logically lead to a dystopian scenario where nothing can be kept secret.

Edited by UberGuy
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3 hours ago, UberGuy said:

 

That is a willful distortion of my post, despite you having quoted it in its entirety. I wrote a section that makes clear I would not condone this.

 

There is a difference between outing every communication made in a presumption of privacy, no matter how flawed, and assuming that privacy extends to a level where you cannot ever be judged by review of supposedly "private" interactions in social media or shared worlds when they are relevant to jobs managing those worlds.

 

I do not condone the former. I think objecting to the latter is obtuse. And I contend that slippery slope arguments are a form of logical fallacy when the link between the thing in question and the projected outcome are tenuous. Letting companies or organizations view their own systems for behavior of employees who will support those systems does not logically lead to a dystopian scenario where nothing can be kept secret.

 

Again don't take my word for it:

"By all means lets get the ball rolling on this into law, take these thoughts to any anti-discrimination agency to see what they have to say.  

Here's a quick list to save you some time: https://www.thelaw.com/law/list-of-state-fair-employment-practices-agencies.330/"

 

Having the ability to read chat logs for reported instances and housing all data logs in case authorities need them is one thing.  But copping to accessing supposedly private messaging on any service from facebook, twitter or this game would get you in some hot water. 

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2 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

By all means lets get the ball rolling on this into law, take these thoughts to any anti-discrimination agency to see what they have to say.  

Here's a quick list to save you some time: https://www.thelaw.com/law/list-of-state-fair-employment-practices-agencies.330/"

 

Would you mind providing a more specific link related to this topic? That page has is links to 57 different FEPA provisions. The overarching topic of the page, as well as a spot check of the state pages it links to, is employment discrimination against protected classes, which is not what we're discussing. 

 

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Just now, UberGuy said:

 

Would you mind providing a more specific link related to this topic? That page has is links to 57 different FEPA provisions. The overarching topic of the page, as well as a spot check of the state pages it links to, is employment discrimination against protected classes, which is not what we're discussing. 

 

 

Read what I've said, that's a list of local anti-discrimination agencies, whatever you feel so passionately about in this discussion you can contact these agencies who have been fighting for your rights.  Call the one local to you to get another perspective.  Plus the top page is a link to a law forum where you can broaden your perspective.  

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9 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

Read what I've said, that's a list of local anti-discrimination agencies, whatever you feel so passionately about in this discussion you can contact these agencies who have been fighting for your rights.  Call the one local to you to get another perspective.  Plus the top page is a link to a law forum where you can broaden your perspective.  

He clearly read what you said and is asking you to respond with more than just links to links about topics not related to the conversation in this thread.

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I'm not sure why "discrimination", as it's legally defined in the US at least, is being discussed here. "Said stuff in private chat" is not a legally protected class. And I'm not aware of general rules against companies looking at private chats, especially since there is increased demand that they do exactly that to moderate things like extremism and disinformation.

 

If the concern is that someone might find out someone is in such a class, and then discriminate against them, I don't think that flies without a court case to trigger discovery that this was indeed what happened, in which case then the more general rules against discrimination kick in.

 

I did some research before posting this, and if there are really rules against internal review of chats as you seem to suggest, they aren't very easy to find. So if there's a specific rule you'd like to point out, I'm afraid that burden is on you to get the ball rolling.

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16 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

He clearly read what you said and is asking you to respond with more than just links to links about topics not related to the conversation in this thread.

 

Nothing ventured, nothing earned.  The combative tone already sets in the bias not to listen, which is fine.  So I've pointed to a direction where you can all broaden your thinking, cutting me out of it.  

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Just now, Mezmera said:

Nothing ventured, nothing earned.  The combative tone already sets in the bias not to listen, which is fine.  So I've pointed to a direction where you can all broaden your thinking, cutting me out of it.  

 

I think you're reading a lot (too much) into a text medium. This is a discussion and indeed a debate. "Combat" of a sort is pretty much a requirement - if we agreed, we wouldn't be having this particular exchange. But I am fairly sure I have not attacked you personally, and I'm offering you a direct opportunity to enlighten me, and any others reading our exchange.

 

If you don't want to pursue it, no problem. But please don't suggest that's someone else's doing.

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Hmm.

Top 10 Melee Players in CoH | The Fightclub Discord 
What is Fightclub?  Fightclub is PVP between two melee players fighting to the death in melee range with no moving/retreating allowed. It's like pylon testing...but the pylon hits back! Perfect for players who enjoy min/maxing DPS chains. Click the discord link above for more info.

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18 minutes ago, UberGuy said:

 

I think you're reading a lot (too much) into a text medium. This is a discussion and indeed a debate. "Combat" of a sort is pretty much a requirement - if we agreed, we wouldn't be having this particular exchange. But I am fairly sure I have not attacked you personally, and I'm offering you a direct opportunity to enlighten me, and any others reading our exchange.

 

If you don't want to pursue it, no problem. But please don't suggest that's someone else's doing.

 

Very top left.  "Ask a Legal Question."  Like this forum they'll have their authoritative anonymous users that'll chime in, some of these people are lawyers.  

 

Broach this with them, see what they say...

 

 

 

Edited by Mezmera
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So getting back to the topic at hand, and really the only purpose of this thread - for folks who are interested in becoming Community Helpers or Game Masters. The link to the Community Helper application clearly outlines, before you can even proceed to signing up, that being a Community Helper requires a level of responsibility, they aren't given special status or advantages, and that as part of the review of the application, (among other things) the applicant's chat logs will be reviewed. Additionally, just like every time a player signs in to the game, they acknowledge that they have read and agree to the User Agreement and Privacy Policy. This landing page is identical on the Game Master page, with the addition of signing a contributor agreement. 

 

For the folks who are espousing their disdain for privacy concerns arising from big tech or advocating for the Homecoming volunteer staff to do better in regards to how they describe behaviors in game, your opinions are valid and important.

 

But take a step back for a second and look at the purpose of this thread - do you want to be a Community Helper or Game Master? If yes, do you agree to the terms that are outlined in the applications? If yes, proceed through the application. If no, you are in no way, shape, or form being forced to continue the application. You can literally close the application box and move on. All of the soap-box pontificating I have been reading in this thread from folks who dislike the nature of the internet or privacy policies makes me (and a number of other posters in this thread) think the solution for these folks is incredibly simple - don't apply to be a Community Helper or Game Master.

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Here's just one instance of the oh so many reasons why checking the ability to see what chat a platform is authorized to see even if it is their own is a huge issue.  

 

https://www.eeoc.gov/statutes/laws-enforced-eeoc

 

Feel earned?

 

  • An employer searches an applicant's name online and learns that she was a complaining witness in a rape prosecution and received counseling for depression. The employer decides not to hire her based on a concern that she may require future time off for continuing symptoms or further treatment of depression.
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5 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

Here's just one instance of the oh so many reasons why checking the ability to see what chat a platform is authorized to see even if it is their own is a huge issue.

And this is why people who don't know anything about the law shouldn't talk about the law. Literally nothing you've said is applicable to this situation.

 

There are no laws, that I'm aware of, in any US jurisdiction that prevent anyone from accessing posts or private messages on their platform. Moderators at Facebook and Twitter do it all the time, it's part of their job, and you've already agreed to it.

 

Also, in some states, unpaid volunteers fall under the same guidelines as employees and they fall under a different set of guidelines in other states. Do you know which states' laws would govern in this situation? The laws of the state that the servers are in? The laws of the state that the volunteer is in? The laws of the state that the GM who 'hires' said volunteer is in? Which states' laws would apply? If you don't know the answer to that question then you can't make any definitive statement about legalities in this issue even if you are an attorney!

 

And this is why people who don't know anything about the law shouldn't try to talk about the law. You do not know what you're talking about. You're like someone who's never even taken a CPR class trying to give advice on how to perform brain surgery.

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If you'd rather be Lame-O the Wonder Clown instead of Homelander then you're playing the wrong game.

 

Thank you doesn't even come close to the gratitude I have for the Homecoming developers for resurrecting Paragon City.

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If giving up some expectation of privacy means other people will have even a small chance of not having to deal with discrimination and intolerance because it kept a bigot out of a position of power, feel free to invade my chat logs like they were an oil-rich country with a hostile government.  My right to privacy is not more important or valuable than others' right to fair treatment.

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2 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

And this is why people who don't know anything about the law shouldn't talk about the law. Literally nothing you've said is applicable to this situation.

 

There are no laws, that I'm aware of, in any US jurisdiction that prevent anyone from accessing posts or private messages on their platform. Moderators at Facebook and Twitter do it all the time, it's part of their job, and you've already agreed to it.

 

Also, in some states, unpaid volunteers fall under the same guidelines as employees and they fall under a different set of guidelines in other states. Do you know which states' laws would govern in this situation? The laws of the state that the servers are in? The laws of the state that the volunteer is in? The laws of the state that the GM who 'hires' said volunteer is in? Which states' laws would apply? If you don't know the answer to that question then you can't make any definitive statement about legalities in this issue even if you are an attorney!

 

And this is why people who don't know anything about the law shouldn't try to talk about the law. You do not know what you're talking about. You're like someone who's never even taken a CPR class trying to give advice on how to perform brain surgery.

 

It's just one reason.  Easily found on the Federal Government's website in under 30 minutes, multi tasking.  If something doesn't feel ethical or morally correct there's likely legal ground to take it to an attorney. 

 

Which is where I iterated for anyone who wants to get off the couch about this to go ask an attorney in the link I provided.  An anti-discriminatory attorney would have a field day with what some here think. 

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5 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

Easily found on the Federal Government's website in under 30 minutes, multi tasking.

Well stop it! You're misunderstanding what people are actually writing in their posts. Probably because you're multi-tasking. Your last couple of posts you've responded to things that people did not actually write.

 

I'm going to say it one last time, though you probably won't see it because you're clearly not reading people's posts past the first sentence or so. Discrimination, in any form, does not apply to what's being discussed in this thread.

If you'd rather be Lame-O the Wonder Clown instead of Homelander then you're playing the wrong game.

 

Thank you doesn't even come close to the gratitude I have for the Homecoming developers for resurrecting Paragon City.

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5 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Well stop it! You're misunderstanding what people are actually writing in their posts. Probably because you're multi-tasking. Your last couple of posts you've responded to things that people did not actually write.

 

I'm going to say it one last time, though you probably won't see it because you're clearly not reading people's posts past the first sentence or so. Discrimination, in any form, does not apply to what's being discussed in this thread.

 

Best wishes!  😗

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If I am hosting a server and decide that I want to review chat logs for a valid reason, then that is what I will do.

 

The players who take offense to that have every right to feel offended and intruded upon. 
 

But anyone expecting actual privacy in an online video game I would compare to someone being outraged by their employer calling them out for trashing management via company email. What did you expect?

 

Does this mean I am for that information being used to punish folks forever using documented bad behavior as a weapon?  Not at all.


Both ‘sides’ of this discussion have valid points. However there seems to be a lack of trust from some which begs the question in my mind, why would you want to be a GM for a group of folks you have an inherent distrust for?

 

I think this discussion is good to have but it is getting a bit convoluted and legalistic for what we are actually talking about here. 
 

If you hang out at a nudist colony folks are going to see your junk. 

 

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Want to see my current list of characters?  Want to know more about me than you ever wanted to know?

Wish Granted!   Check out the 'About Me' in my profile:   KauaiJim - Homecoming (homecomingservers.com)

 

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37 minutes ago, KauaiJim said:

 

If you hang out at a nudist colony folks are going to see your junk. 

 


and it’s magnificent.  MAGNIFICENT. 

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Contact Small Doc Buzzsaw.jpg"She who lives by the cybernetic monstrosity powered by living coral, all too often dies by the cybernetic monstrosity powered by living coral."  -Doc Buzzsaw


 

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