Thoughts on a recharge speed inspiration?

[Replacement]

51 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Creating and coding for the test server takes a non-trivial amount of effort.  Pondering the effects and alternatives beforehand takes much less effort.  (And filters out a lot of bad and questionable ideas.)  There's a reason why best engineering practice is "analyze, then build a prototype".

That's particularly important in cases such as this were the limited number of people on beta can prove the mechanical function of inspiration, but cannot effectively test the large scale changes to the meta that would invariably accompany publishing to the live game.  For the latter, we must rely on thought experiments and the informed judgement of experienced players - AKA, this thread.

Two things I want to note:

• No response of "devs should be working on something else" is ever valid, I would even argue within the dev and homecoming team itself. They are volunteers and will work on not only what they think is needed, but what they are interested in actually implementing.  I am not telling them what to do or what to work on; rather - I am pointing out the worthlessness of shutting down an idea without the data to know if it's good or bad (at least in a topic lacking thematic or artistic properties like this).
• This wasn't in response to "look at this impact it will surely have." This was in response to an undefined feeling:

14 hours ago, Shenanigunner said:

I (and others) just have the feelilng that unlimited recharge boosts would be a game breaker

(The rest of this post is what I responded to in the parts you didn't include in the quote)

 

To put it more generally, "This might not work" is never a valid reason to shut down an idea (edit: for me). 

Either bring the data to your Gedankenexperiment, or accept that you are opposed to progress.

Edited February 24, 2021 by Replacement
Clarity

[arcane]

Sorry Replacement, but you don’t get to make sweeping declarations that all of a subset of arguments are invalid and that critics are simply opposed to progress. No logic in that kind of thinking.

[Replacement]

1 minute ago, arcaneholocaust said:

Sorry Replacement, but you don’t get to make sweeping declarations that all of a subset of arguments are invalid and that critics are simply opposed to progress. No logic in that kind of thinking.

I just clarified a bit, but I am comfortable discarding opinions that tell devs what to work on, and I'm comfortable telling people they are passing off feelings as facts. 

 

If you are talking about my final bolded sentence, would you accept "for me" added to the end of it? A little less "these are the laws of the universe" and more "I want you to understand why I'm not considering this as good feedback"? I do come across rather absolute, there.

[arcane]

2 minutes ago, Replacement said:

I just clarified a bit, but I am comfortable discarding opinions that tell devs what to work on, and I'm comfortable telling people they are passing off feelings as facts. 

 

If you are talking about my final bolded sentence, would you accept "for me" added to the end of it? A little less "these are the laws of the universe" and more "I want you to understand why I'm not considering this as good feedback"? I do come across rather absolute, there.

You’re good man. I don’t really appreciate the type of thinking buried in the very last bit because it insinuates motive (“opposed to progress”), but I do understand why you made the post in the first place out of frustration that people seem to be writing off ideas you like a little too quickly. 

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

Two things I want to note:

Neither of which have anything to with anything I said.  So, why, exactly did you use me for your soap box?  (Other than pronouncing me "wrong, wrong, wrongity, WRONG!")

What I said is the stone cold truth.  Your proposed solution ("put it on the Test Center!") doesn't address the questions of social meta that other posters have raised.  You don't like their positions, take it up with them, not me.

But before you do, read the next part:
 

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

To put it more generally, "This might not work" is never a valid reason to shut down an idea (edit: for me). 

Then bite your tongue, review the Concerning this forum... post at the top of this forum (including the part which makes it clear players are allowed to disagree with a proposal), and scroll on.

 

1 hour ago, Replacement said:

Either bring the data to your Gedankenexperiment, or accept that you are opposed to progress.

The problem, with our without your edit, isn't the preceding statement (quoted above) - it's this sweeping declaration than anyone who doesn't meet your standards is by definition deficient and invalid.

[Galaxy Brain]

23 hours ago, Replacement said:

I like the idea of a minor-moderate recharge buff as well as a +move speed buff.  Just an all around celerity inspiration.

 

I realize it would probably be (too) cumbersome, but I would love some mid-mission inspiration "recipe" options in the right-click menu for adding new inspirations.  ex: Combine break free and accuracy of same tier to build a +speed insp.  This lets you avoid adding the new inspiration to the drop pool and increase the relative "cost" of them, which seems like a good way to ease it into the game.

Hot damn thats a good idea

[Infinitum]

23 hours ago, Replacement said:

I like the idea of a minor-moderate recharge buff as well as a +move speed buff.  Just an all around celerity inspiration.

 

I realize it would probably be (too) cumbersome, but I would love some mid-mission inspiration "recipe" options in the right-click menu for adding new inspirations.  ex: Combine break free and accuracy of same tier to build a +speed insp.  This lets you avoid adding the new inspiration to the drop pool and increase the relative "cost" of them, which seems like a good way to ease it into the game.

That is filet mignon sir.

[Replacement]

1 hour ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Neither of which have anything to with anything I said.  So, why, exactly did you use me for your soap box?  (Other than pronouncing me "wrong, wrong, wrongity, WRONG!")

I didn't think you were wrong at all, actually.  Just explaining my position, based on what you quoted.  

 

I draw a hard line: if you do not like a thing, saying "I think it will cause [I won't explain] damage" is a bad justification.  I'm done with this Red Herring.

 

---

 

Defender->Electric Affinity-> provides 125% Recharge for 5 seconds.

 

Suggestion: Something along these lines would actually be really fun as an Inspiration.  Example progression:

+75% Recharge

+100% Recharge

+125% Recharge

(+150% if you care for a t4)

Duration: 5s. 

 

This means the better your build, the less effective these become, and they function as quick bursts to cross you to the finish line when a power is almost ready.  Because they are so time-sensitive, you can't just keep pumping them and then run on God Mode like you can with a full tray of Reds.

 

I'm curious to see how people would break this.

 

[Shenanigunner]

4 hours ago, Replacement said:

...or accept that you are opposed to progress.

 

Hardly. I am lifetime full-up on self-importance, though, and have had quite my fill for now.

[Starhammer]

I think the balance problems caused by making it an Inspiration require more work to offset than would be justifiable. In my opinion, a better overall way to get some of this effectiveness with less collateral damage to balance and coding efforts would be to add a significant (+100%?) +recharge to Rest. The powers that it's really important to have long cooldowns on generally already have immunity to +recharge, and it won't affect Rest itself because the cooldown doesn't start until it turns off.

[Hyperstrike]

Okay, a Yellow boosts your ToHit for a time.
A Red boosts your damage for a time.
A Green heals you instantly.
A Blue gives you Endurance instantly.
An Orange boosts your Resists for a time.
A Purple boosts your Defense for a time.
A BreakFree supplies some Mez resistance for a time.

A putative Recharge inspie boosts Recharge.  Which rolls over into Heals, Damage and other things.
So the only ways to balance them against otherInspies are:

Make the Recharge inspies drop MUCH less frequently.

Make the Recharge inspies less powerful, more or less kneecapping the purpose of having them in the first place.

Quote

Say we make them equivalent to +Acc inspies:
T1: 7% (it becomes an additional LoTG)
T2: 18.75% (It's more powerful than a Purple set's Recharge bonus)
T3: 37.5% (It's essentially half a Hasten)
T4: 75% (It's essentially Hasten).
Even cutting them in half makes them PHENOMENALLY overpowered.

Make the Recharge inspies TOTALLY exclusive.  You can only have ONE active at a time (like Ultimate).

Or, most likely, a nasty brew of all of the above.

So, you up for all the dev effort to deliver something that pumps Recharge FOR THIRTY SECONDS that is rarer than hens' teeth, not very effective, and can't be stacked?

This is how I had Recharge inspies explained to me.  BY A PARAGON STUDIOS DEV.

 

You can feel free to not like it all you want.
You can act like a jerk towards your fellow players for telling you why it's ridiculously unlikely to happen.
You can tell them "I don't wanna hear it.  It contradicts my world view!"

It doesn't change reality into a place where things you want are simply done for you and everyone is made to agree with your "unassailable wisdom" of "I want it, therefore..."

Have a nice day.

[PeregrineFalcon]

Man. What is it with people today posting in the Suggestions Forum and then freaking out when other people disagree with their suggestions?

 

Progress isn't "change something just cause I want it!" In fact, progress isn't really a thing at all. Progress is the state where you are moving toward a specific goal. What exactly, Replacement, is your specific goal? If you can't name a specific goal then nothing that you propose is progress, it's simply a change. Being opposed to change isn't bad if it's a bad change or if it's a change merely for the sake of change. Neither of which is progress either.

 

And what if I do admit that I'm "opposed to progress"? Does that somehow make me a bad person?

[Akisan]

I'd love to have a new recharge themed inspiration, but not as pure +recharge. 

Slows are one of the few debuffs in the game that can't be removed with inspirations, despite being in enemy powersets from a low level.  I'd much rather it work as a resist slow inspiration, with a minor (if any) boost to recharge while it's active, just to give a way to escape being locked at -75% recharge / move speed by poorly-rolled enemy groups (6x outcast chillers, for example). 

This would have the inspiration occupy a similar niche as yellow inspirations - great for handling debuffs while leveling, but largely obsolete on most end-game builds.

 

Sample buff values:

Small:        20% resist, 5% recharge speed

Medium:   40% resist, 7.5% +rech.

Large:       60% resist, 10% +rech.

Huge:       80% resist, 15% +rech.

[Hyperstrike]

20 hours ago, Akisan said:

I'd love to have a new recharge themed inspiration, but not as pure +recharge. 

Slows are one of the few debuffs in the game that can't be removed with inspirations, despite being in enemy powersets from a low level.  I'd much rather it work as a resist slow inspiration, with a minor (if any) boost to recharge while it's active, just to give a way to escape being locked at -75% recharge / move speed by poorly-rolled enemy groups (6x outcast chillers, for example). 

This would have the inspiration occupy a similar niche as yellow inspirations - great for handling debuffs while leveling, but largely obsolete on most end-game builds.

 

Sample buff values:

Small:        20% resist, 5% recharge speed

Medium:   40% resist, 7.5% +rech.

Large:       60% resist, 10% +rech.

Huge:       80% resist, 15% +rech.

Now something LIKE this, I could get behind.

Maybe a Debuff washer.
It's already kinda covered under Incarnate powers.
But imagine a 3 use Debuff cleaner.

Negates a small amount of -Res/-Def debuffs, negates a small amount of -Recharge, and negates a small amount of -Run.
The small would be only minimally effective.  But it'd help with "COTTON PICKIN CALTROPS!" situations and low level "Why is the recharge timer on my power SHRINKING?" issues, while not being insta "BreakFree" type liberty.  But larger versions would still be useful and valuable.

[Replacement]

On 2/25/2021 at 2:50 AM, PeregrineFalcon said:

Man. What is it with people today posting in the Suggestions Forum and then freaking out when other people disagree with their suggestions?

 

Progress isn't "change something just cause I want it!" In fact, progress isn't really a thing at all. Progress is the state where you are moving toward a specific goal. What exactly, Replacement, is your specific goal? If you can't name a specific goal then nothing that you propose is progress, it's simply a change. Being opposed to change isn't bad if it's a bad change or if it's a change merely for the sake of change. Neither of which is progress either.

 

And what if I do admit that I'm "opposed to progress"? Does that somehow make me a bad person?

Just a red herring I regret biting into, since it again let Shenanigunner not explain why this is any different. This came out of literally the least important sentence of a post of mine, that has nothing to do with the topic. I'm still wanting to know why "build for recharge, use inspirations for other stats" is ok but "build for other stats, use inspirations for recharge" is bad, and somehow easymode.

 

I will reiterate my initial point: "testing this instead of opposing it with no sound reasoning on why it's bad would be better." I don't think it's too much to ask someone to explain why this is EZmode, why this stat that enhances like the rest, is different.

If that still leaves you feeling indignant, or like I'm the radical, I'm truly sorry that we have no common ground.  

Edited March 3, 2021 by Replacement

[Replacement]

On 2/24/2021 at 11:58 PM, Hyperstrike said:

Okay, a Yellow boosts your ToHit for a time.
A Red boosts your damage for a time.
A Green heals you instantly.
A Blue gives you Endurance instantly.
An Orange boosts your Resists for a time.
A Purple boosts your Defense for a time.
A BreakFree supplies some Mez resistance for a time.

A putative Recharge inspie boosts Recharge.  Which rolls over into Heals, Damage and other things.
So the only ways to balance them against otherInspies are:

Make the Recharge inspies drop MUCH less frequently.

Make the Recharge inspies less powerful, more or less kneecapping the purpose of having them in the first place.

Make the Recharge inspies TOTALLY exclusive.  You can only have ONE active at a time (like Ultimate).

Or, most likely, a nasty brew of all of the above.

So, you up for all the dev effort to deliver something that pumps Recharge FOR THIRTY SECONDS that is rarer than hens' teeth, not very effective, and can't be stacked?

This is how I had Recharge inspies explained to me.  BY A PARAGON STUDIOS DEV.

 

You can feel free to not like it all you want.
You can act like a jerk towards your fellow players for telling you why it's ridiculously unlikely to happen.
You can tell them "I don't wanna hear it.  It contradicts my world view!"

It doesn't change reality into a place where things you want are simply done for you and everyone is made to agree with your "unassailable wisdom" of "I want it, therefore..."

Have a nice day.

I don't think this insp will happen and think we need +mez more, and that doesn't offend me or bother me.

 

Ok that out of the way, this reasoning doesn't entirely track for me.

 

Are you familiar with EHP? Effective Hit Points?  If you have any resistance at all, it multiplies your effective HP, even if by a small decimal amount. If you have +Defense, it multiplies the effectiveness of your hp and your resistance.

 

If you're at 80% hit rate but are under a full fulcrum shift, then the Yellow you just popped multiplies the damage bonus you are currently running.

 

So all of our current inspirations are already multiplying the effects of other stats. I don't see how Recharge is different aside from being more universal -- though even then, it won't affect your toggles or your autos. 

 

I don't think anyone isn't recognizing it's a more powerful stat, but it's not interacting with other stats in a fundamentally different way.

 

I still like the idea of diluting it with +move speed, or giving it a 5s duration with a big (cap-scratching) boost but there are plenty of ways to make it balanced.

[Hyperstrike]

56 minutes ago, Replacement said:

Ok that out of the way, this reasoning doesn't entirely track for me.

Okay, so imagine an inspie giving you 10% +Rech, and eating a tray full of them.

Your attacks come up faster, more damage.
Your God Modes come up more often.  In some cases meaning more Def/Res/Regen/Recovery.
Your clicky buffs and heals come up more often.  Both self and party.

What you're talking about modifying the effects of another stat.
+Recharge affects ALL of them in a cascade situation.
 

[PeregrineFalcon]

2 hours ago, Replacement said:

I will reiterate my initial point: "testing this instead of opposing it with no sound reasoning on why it's bad would be better." I don't think it's too much to ask someone to explain why this is EZmode, why this stat that enhances like the rest, is different.

If that still leaves you feeling indignant, or like I'm the radical, I'm truly sorry that we have no common ground.  

Well, the problem with that statement is that several people have provided some pretty sound reasoning as to why it would be bad. Not saying that I agree with them, just saying that there's been some math in this thread, and it's been explained.

 

Nah, I'm not indignant. I don't think you're a radical. I think we're just having a discussion. No matter what gets said here we're still two guys who love City of Heroes. Everything else is just unimportant details. Peace.

[Troo]

Where is our inspiration to increase hold, sleep, confuse, stun or fear?

Why isn't there an inspiration to increase knockback?

What about magnitude?

Why isn't there an inspiration to give folks some additional flight speed for 30 seconds?

Why isn't there an inspiration to increase debuffs?

Where is our inspiration that plays a tiny fiddle?

 

[Hyperstrike]

42 minutes ago, Troo said:

Where is our inspiration that plays a tiny fiddle?

Take two of these and call me in the morning.