Necromancy Rework

[Klaleara]

This is more for fun, I'm not even sure if Homecoming can change things within the game without crossing boundaries and getting shut down. 

 

The point of this, is that I'd like to see Necromancy separated a bit, and having more of a unique feel, than just zombie models with dark powers.

 

Change 1:  Make it so Tier 1 Zombies die significantly easier, and reduce the cooldown of summoning them significantly too.  This is to better simulate the endless army that Necromancers control.  As they are dying, you constantly keep summoning them.  With this, they should also passively take on the Pet Enhancement buff from the Tier 2 Grave Knights (AKA, you can't have to cast the buff on them every time you summon them).

 

Change 2:  This is to better synergize with Change 1.  Soul Extraction will have its cooldown reduced, and no longer capped at 1 summon.  Could either be ghosts, or skeletons.  With your Zombies dying more often, it will provide a better, and more consistent use for Soul Extraction, which is rarely used in my case most of the time.  It will allow the Necromancer to have more pets than normal, but definitely still behind with Thugs + Gang War.

 

Change 3:  Remove Life Drain, and replace it with a sort of "Corpse Explosion".  Since Corpse Explosion is a bit too violent for CoX, and goes against the actual thought of just "knocking them out", I would change it to expel their souls, or corrupt them, and cause Darkness to reach out from a downed enemy/downed ally (Which could also synergize with low health Tier 1).  The ability will spread darkness on the ground, and will debuff the enemy, while also dealing more damage.  If it touches another corpse, it will not only expand from that corpse and grow stronger.

 

Concept behind the changes:  To me, Necromancy currently feels just like any pet class with shadow powers, and a zombie skin.  I'd love to see it expanded to feel more like the eternal/endless army of the dead.  And to have more direct abilities that effect corpses.  That and Life Drain was boring to me, would want something more interesting than that.

 

Parts of this is a huge buff to Necromancy in general, but since you'd have to casting Tier 1 Zombies a lot more, I feel like it balances out a bit as you will be more busy keeping your pets up more than normal MM's.  I love the idea of casting more Necromancy stuff, than just using my Secondary more often though.  Maybe just a personal preference.

[Galaxy Brain]

I'm down. I really wish the pet setups got changed a bit with some of them like this, you know?

[kelly Rocket]

I'd really rather not gimp the *one* melee based pet set that's considered good this way.

 

Well, it would either gimp it or make it massively OP. Unlimited ghosts would be massively OP. The ghost is actually very strong, and if you're "rarely" using it, you're doing Necro/ wrong.

[Klaleara]

I'd really rather not gimp the *one* melee based pet set that's considered good this way.

 

Well, it would either gimp it or make it massively OP. Unlimited ghosts would be massively OP. The ghost is actually very strong, and if you're "rarely" using it, you're doing Necro/ wrong.

 

Its all just a numbers game, clearly things would have to be changed to balanced entirely.  I don't think Necro needs a buff or nerf, but I do believe it needs a thematic change to make it more unique and not just "good". 

 

Unlimited ghosts is not the plan, in my head I see 2-4 ghosts if the combat is fairly consistent. And the ghosts numbers would have to be individually reduced to accommodate the increase in numbers.

 

Also, sorry that my pets don't normally die as is?  Unsure how to do it right, and make it so they are constantly dying?

 

EDIT:  Doesn't Ninja's do an outrageously good amount of damage?  I remember them slaughtering everything.

[Solvernia]

Corpse Explosion is a bit too violent for CoX, and goes against the actual thought of just "knocking them out"

 

 

(fun fact: works on beast mastery pets too)

[kelly Rocket]

EDIT:  Doesn't Ninja's do an outrageously good amount of damage?  I remember them slaughtering everything.

 

Ninja/ does great damage... for the 3 seconds before they're all dead and you're resummoning. They're a horrible convergence of being fully melee based and also being literally, by far, the most fragile of all the fragile MM pets.

[Klaleara]

I remember them being fragile.  But I also remember being darkness secondary, and buffing their defense, while debuffing their to hit making it not much of an issue.  Even for Hero tier.

[kelly Rocket]

I remember them being fragile.  But I also remember being darkness secondary, and buffing their defense, while debuffing their to hit making it not much of an issue.  Even for Hero tier.

Dark and Time are the top tier secondaries for Masterminds. They make any primary much better. Restricting Ninja/ to only being good with one of those isn't really fair. Basically Ninja/ needs a survivability buff (All the melee pets do really).

[jack_nomind]

I don't really love the idea of an MM set built around spamming one power just to keep their pets on the field.  It significantly hurts their action economy -- particularly since each new zombie would need to be buffed.  That sounds like an exercise in frustration and carpal tunnel.

 

I do, however, really like the overall idea of an infection or corruption mechanic that spreads outward from the pets.  I'd go something like the opposite route: the longer a Necro pet is alive, the more stacks of "rot" it gets.  When it dies, the "rot" effect becomes an area that debuffs enemies and buffs other Necro pets (or all allies), with the duration and size of the effect determined by number of stacks (up to some limit).  Any other defeats happening inside the "rot" area would extend its duration (and possibly size).  I'd also change the Soul Extraction power to be able to target an existing pet and immediately sacrifice it to summon the spirit, which would have the added benefit of spreading "rot."

[Klaleara]

I don't really love the idea of an MM set built around spamming one power just to keep their pets on the field.  It significantly hurts their action economy -- particularly since each new zombie would need to be buffed.  That sounds like an exercise in frustration and carpal tunnel.

 

I do, however, really like the overall idea of an infection or corruption mechanic that spreads outward from the pets.  I'd go something like the opposite route: the longer a Necro pet is alive, the more stacks of "rot" it gets.  When it dies, the "rot" effect becomes an area that debuffs enemies and buffs other Necro pets (or all allies), with the duration and size of the effect determined by number of stacks (up to some limit).  Any other defeats happening inside the "rot" area would extend its duration (and possibly size).  I'd also change the Soul Extraction power to be able to target an existing pet and immediately sacrifice it to summon the spirit, which would have the added benefit of spreading "rot."

 

1.  I’m entirely behind that soul extraction change.  Especially with the rot.  I’d still personally prefer my change, but I think rot/soul change would definitely be in the right direction, and fun.  Any unique mechanic is good imo.

 

2.  I’m not thinking constant spamming, I’m more thinking using it once per group maybe in a normal situation.  But I’m boss battles, extra loaded groups, you MIGHT have to do it twice.  As for the buffing, I already addressed that by saying they would automatically have the buffs the tier above them has.

 

3.  I remember poison being the most OP power out of all the ones I tried.  It was downright brutal. Way stronger than dark.  I have not played with time though, so can’t comment..

[Rhinoxx]

I like the thematic change in this - this would actually be very much in line with what I would expect from a Necromancer; in fact, I have always wondered why so few minions are summoned when traditionally Necromancers empty the local graveyard or morgue when they go out for fun :D

[Elthenar]

How about making the soul extraction power also provide a passive bonus, ala Fortify Pack.  It would give all of your minions a self rez like the Freakshow guys. Did your zombies get blown up, no biggie, they are walking it off.

[Klaleara]

How about making the soul extraction power also provide a passive bonus, ala Fortify Pack.  It would give all of your minions a self rez like the Freakshow guys. Did your zombies get blown up, no biggie, they are walking it off.

 

I wouldn't complain about this, if the change of them dying easier was also in place.  Otherwise its just the same issue as it is.  The only other issue, it would take away the real feeling of raising the dead, instead of just calling it.  As you're affecting an actual corpse.

 

To keep it unique, I see the Necromancer having

 

3 Tier 1

2 Tier 2

1 Tier 3

2-4 Ghosts

 

Give them more consistently more pets than the others.  As Necromancers tend to be known to be swarmy.  But I don't want to just give them the ability to call a bunch of undead, cause that takes away from Gang War, which is unique and powerful on its own accord.

 

Want to find a sweet spot for Necro.

 

[Fedifensor]

If you just want more pets, have the Tier 1 give an extra zombie at level 10, or even two extra (at levels 10 and 14).  However, that could cause problems, both from a programming and control standpoint, and the pets would have to be carefully balanced  Having multiple masterminds is bad enough on CoT cave maps...

[jack_nomind]

I’m not thinking constant spamming, I’m more thinking using it once per group maybe in a normal situation.  But I’m boss battles, extra loaded groups, you MIGHT have to do it twice.  As for the buffing, I already addressed that by saying they would automatically have the buffs the tier above them has.

 

I don't just mean the Pet Enhancement buffs -- it would be frustrating for my necro/therm but downright mean for secondaries with AoE buffs on longer cooldowns, like kin or time.  And if the zombies inherit all the buffs affecting a GK or the Lich (assuming that's even possible), returning to my /therm, I'd be getting a ton of Forged zombies.  Maybe not gamebreaking?  But it seems like the dice are rolling a bit on that.

[Klaleara]

I’m not thinking constant spamming, I’m more thinking using it once per group maybe in a normal situation.  But I’m boss battles, extra loaded groups, you MIGHT have to do it twice.  As for the buffing, I already addressed that by saying they would automatically have the buffs the tier above them has.

 

I don't just mean the Pet Enhancement buffs -- it would be frustrating for my necro/therm but downright mean for secondaries with AoE buffs on longer cooldowns, like kin or time.  And if the zombies inherit all the buffs affecting a GK or the Lich (assuming that's even possible), returning to my /therm, I'd be getting a ton of Forged zombies.  Maybe not gamebreaking?  But it seems like the dice are rolling a bit on that.

 

Ah, I see what you're saying.  No, not all buffs (Unsure if that would even be possible.  Could be fun to play around with though heh, imagine 3 zombies with Noxious Gas from Poison.  THAT would be OP).

 

But its a balancing act, the zombies in my head, are throw away units.  A necromancer doesn't care about the crappy zombies he summoned, nor should he, he has higher priorities.  Buffs should be focused on Grave Knights/Lich, and the Zombies are mostly Soul Extraction fodder, base damage, and meat shields. 

 

That is the whole point of the change to them dying, is to really give the feel of an unending army.  With that, you don't care about every unit.  They are a summon and forget pet.  While that is a direct nerf not being able to effectively buff them constantly.  They are buffed by the fact that you can use Soul Extraction a lot more.  And the ghosts get buffed, so AoE buffs would become exponentially more powerful the more ghosts you have, so that alone could be too much of a buff.

[WindDemon21]

I think Cake server is already implementing this, which should have ALWAYS been the case for MM's, but they NEED to make those "training" powers automatically applied to newly casted pets. They can already be squishy and it wouldn't be game breaking. but that is consistently the biggest issue/annoyance with Masterminds. I don't mind if i have to cast often or mid-battle if i didn't have to train them. You still have to buff them and manage your other powers while doing so, and it costs end to cast them too, and lots are generally pretty squishy. Last I heard Cake was making them a pbaoe auto aura in supremecy, that proc'ed every couple seconds applying the training buffs to the pets when they're out. This wouldn't even be necessary though, since the "automatically changes" the power code already exists in the game via field medic, and even fighting how having both boxing and tough increases the stats for cross punch etc.

 

At the VERRRRRY least. Those training powers need to be made a wide radius pbaoe with minor to no end cost so you don't have to try to freaking target the pet to cast it which always takes like 4 seconds before they're even targettable which is the biggest pain.

[Greycat]

T1s already generally die fast enough (part of why I hate taking MMs redside - Demolitionists. And then there's "why bother summoning them" MSRs...) without making them weaker.

The main issue I think I have with your suggestions is this -

Quote

    A necromancer doesn't care about the crappy zombies he summoned, nor should he, he has higher priorities.

Maybe *yours* don't. My primary necro/ MM definitely does. There's not one definition of who or what a necro MM is or what their attitude should be. (We had this argument back when the ability to switch sides was added, with "Stalkers can't be heroes, they're assassins!" "X villain AT/powerset can't be a hero because I can't imagine that concept!")

Your 'corpse explosion' power already exists in Warshades... I don't know that I'd want to give up life drain for it, though. (I find that useful.)

 

Don't think I'd argue with pet upgrades being auto-applied... not sure what we'd be looking at for balance and such though. (Though given a MM's offense is all in the pets, it's not like a blaster loses the ability to fire off an AOE and has to resummon it, the argument it's "already balanced" could be made.)

Edited February 25, 2020 by Greycat

[WindDemon21]

If anything dont get rid of life drain, it's the only thing that makes necro unique to self heal with it. What they should do is make soul extraction instead a fast recharge dark/dark tank summon to take the alpha and hold aggro. Like dark servant but tank form with death shroud, armor, mayhem cloak of fear and siphon life.

Edited February 25, 2020 by WindDemon21

[Saiyajinzoningen]

On 5/29/2019 at 11:47 PM, kelly Rocket said:

Dark and Time are the top tier secondaries for Masterminds. They make any primary much better. Restricting Ninja/ to only being good with one of those isn't really fair. Basically Ninja/ needs a survivability buff (All the melee pets do really).

i have a ninja/cold that softcaps them. they can easily do 4x8

[Galaxy Brain]

I'd just like the ghost to be able to be made off of enemies and not just your dead pets.

[Sura]

3 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

i have a ninja/cold that softcaps them. they can easily do 4x8

My zombies are all resist capped, they do pretty darn well in all content as well.

[ScarySai]

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I'd just like the ghost to be able to be made off of enemies and not just your dead pets.

Yeah, it should kinda work off enemies the same way Victory Rush does.

Edited February 25, 2020 by ScarySai

[Coyotedancer]

I can't imagine what "constant resummoning" would do the MM's Endurance bar... Holy hell would that add up fast.

[Greycat]

17 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I'd just like the ghost to be able to be made off of enemies and not just your dead pets.

Hmm. Probably wouldn't last as long (trying to think of how long they last now) ... wonder if they'd allow multiples on that.

 

The one usability issue I'd see (coming from Warshades and their 'extract essence') is in things like invasions, where the enemies disappear fairly fast to where you *can't* extract, even if you get them right on death. (Yes, it's annoying.)

 

.... I don't know if it could be coded, but it would kind of be amusing if it would act as a confuse on spectral enemies, like Tsoo ancestor spirits, ghost pirates or COT...