Is Regen still worth playing?

[wjrasmussen]

12 hours ago, Snarky said:

So, we're agreed then.  Regen is the worst?

So will the best set overcome a horrible player?

[Werner]

It's been forever since I last played my namesake and pictured Katana/Regen Scrapper in the old game. I loved him, but even in the old game he was probably my weakest fully-IO'd character. In the new game I fear he'd be even worse off comparatively. Plus I'm older and lazier now, and Regen takes focus and effort to play well. But if I still wanted to play that way, I wouldn't hesitate to remake him. Probably most of what I talk about on the forum is hard core min/maxed insanity, and certainly that is much of what I do in game, but I probably spend as much time playing with my friends leveling whatever combination sounds fun to me, with very little regard to being optimal. We play what we feel like, adjust the difficulty as necessary, and don't sweat the face plants.

Edited March 3, 2021 by Werner

[Doc_Scorpion]

2 hours ago, Werner said:

Regen takes focus and effort to play well

I think that's (subconsciously) part of why many people write off Regen.  It's not a "safe" set, and it's certainly not a "set it and forget it" set.  (Not without considerable investment in set bonuses.)  It's not a difficult set to master by any stretch, but you do have to master it to survive.  On live, and here on Homecoming, there's a definite meta bias towards safety and toggles.
 

2 hours ago, Werner said:

Probably most of what I talk about on the forum is hard core min/maxed insanity

This too.  (Speaking in general, not about you.)  Hardcore and min/maxers are disproportionally represented on the forums.

[Doomguide2005]

1 hour ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

I think that's (subconsciously) part of why many people write off Regen.  It's not a "safe" set, and it's certainly not a "set it and forget it" set.  (Not without considerable investment in set bonuses.)  It's not a difficult set to master by any stretch, but you do have to master it to survive.  On live, and here on Homecoming, there's a definite meta bias towards safety and toggles.
 

This too.  (Speaking in general, not about you.)  Hardcore and min/maxers are disproportionally represented on the forums.

Agreed, but when it gets right down to it I think most of us also fit those last couple of lines in Werners post.  Were also here to just play whatever without concern of min/max and have fun with friends, new and old.

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Agreed, but when it gets right down to it I think most of us also fit those last couple of lines in Werners post.  Were also here to just play whatever without concern of min/max and have fun with friends, new and old.

Double-edged blade. Being a number crunching min/maxer can also cause us to see problems that interfere with our ability to just log in and have fun.

Or maybe that's just me.

[Doomguide2005]

6 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Double-edged blade. Being a number crunching min/maxer can also cause us to see problems that interfere with our ability to just log in and have fun.

Or maybe that's just me.

     I'm still confused 😜

    

[JnEricsonx]

22 hours ago, Player2 said:

It's fine on sentinels...

My first regen character is BR/Regen.  

[Heraclea]

I never considered myself a huge min-maxer.  I have a large roster of level 50 characters at various stages of incarnate and IO builds.  I have two level 50 regen melees.  One, that I mentioned earlier, is a staff/regen built to see if I could make an adequate tank using regen.  I consider this experience mostly a failure.

 

But the second regen character is a fire/regen scrapper.  This is a revival of a Victory character who then and now played a useful but specialized role in my roster.  This character did not take Tough or Weave in an attempt to build up defenses; on out of the box regen these tiny bits of resistance and defense are lipstick on a pig.  She does not slot for those bonuses, and instead picks up the melee purples, which are more beneficial to her than to any of my tankers.  She is built to run low level task forces; when Citadel or Synapse are the weeklies she comes out.  On this content Regen performs well; again I think Regen is probably the most inviting set to level but the poorest performer at level 50.  She also performs well on the melee team for Hamidon raiding; resistance and defense mean nothing here compared to low endurance consumption, and she flies.  She also runs the Shadow Shard TFs whenever anyone wants to run them; since her armor is nothing but holes she is indifferent to exotic damage, and she flies. 

 

I still think Regen is a trap for the unwary new player.  But when you have a large roster of generalist characters you can afford to make some specialists. 

[Snarky]

14 hours ago, twozerofoxtrot said:

I think it's amazing, and the only T9 worth taking, for all the reasons that Laxx pointed out. Also, it doesn't have a crash! You can pop it every minute-thirty and it doesn't have a crash.  

 

So personally I think it's essential if you're ever in a situation where you can be reasonably expected to soak an alpha. Repeatedly. 

The literal time measurement of a 'moment' is 90 seconds.  I can see why they used the word though.  "Hey! You're still up!  Ooops, no,  Nope, you're down." Was too long

[Galaxy Brain]

9 hours ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

I think that's (subconsciously) part of why many people write off Regen.  It's not a "safe" set, and it's certainly not a "set it and forget it" set.  (Not without considerable investment in set bonuses.)  It's not a difficult set to master by any stretch, but you do have to master it to survive.  On live, and here on Homecoming, there's a definite meta bias towards safety and toggles.

To be honest, the other half of it being hard to master is that it is not *rewarding* to do so. It'd be one thing if Regen were super reactive and hard to pin down but doing so makes you immortal, but other armor sets are tougher with 1/4th the IQ required.

[twozerofoxtrot]

12 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

It'd be one thing if Regen were super reactive and hard to pin down but doing so makes you immortal, but other armor sets are tougher with 1/4th the IQ required.

 

True but you can be a Big-Brain Scrapper tanking Hamidon!

[oedipus_tex]

I have a question as someone who never got a Regen character far along. Is it the case that the set would do okay fighting a specific kind of enemy, and that kind of enemy is rare/doesn't exist? Or is Regen just numerically inferior, an Armor variety of the old Energy Melee?

[ForeverLaxx]

4 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

I have a question as someone who never got a Regen character far along. Is it the case that the set would do okay fighting a specific kind of enemy, and that kind of enemy is rare/doesn't exist? Or is Regen just numerically inferior, an Armor variety of the old Energy Melee?

Any enemy that deals "special" or otherwise untyped damage makes Regen uniquely suited to handling. This is because, I'm sure you know, Regen doesn't have any particular resistances worth noting so all damage is functionally the same to it. The set is designed around this, giving it the tools it needs in order to survive where other armor sets, like Invuln or Willpower might fail. Those tools, of course, are the click heals.

 

Unfortunately, you don't really see this much in-game. The best example is Hamidon and you don't even really "need" a Regen character to clear it despite being the best at handling it on paper.

 

As an aside, it's still a strong melee armor set for PvP unless something drastic has changed. Melee isn't great in zone PvP, but the nature of how combat works there in a 1v1 scenario (mostly jousting) plays directly into how Regen wants a fight to go.

[Snarky]

7 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

I have a question as someone who never got a Regen character far along. Is it the case that the set would do okay fighting a specific kind of enemy, and that kind of enemy is rare/doesn't exist? Or is Regen just numerically inferior, an Armor variety of the old Energy Melee?

Compare Regen to Invul for a sec.  Invul (without much argument) is out of the box tough as nails.  It has layered defenses.  Defense, Resists, and a Heal that massively buffs your health bar.  Also, it has great defense debuff resist.  Then you take I/Os.  With some study, a few buckets of cash, a Invul can be made unkillable.  With a weakness to Psi damage.

 

Regen....  is not that.  It is a GOOD armor set.  There are no 'bad' armor sets in the game.  But it is not diving into an endless tunnel of +4/x8 strong.  I/Os will make it stronger, built smart.  But it lacks the layered mitigation base that provides a foundation for the max levels powerbuilders seek.  So it gets a ton of shit.

 

My current main is a dark/dark Brute.  No inherent defense.  But Dark Armor has stealth (weird right?) and two Mez auras for stunning minions.  Layered defenses in a completely different way.  Then it has great resists, you can pretty easily slap at least some i/o defense on it, and possibly one of the best heals in the game.

 

Regen is one trick pony.  It is very good at what it does.  But it faces tough competition from sets that have 3-6 horses pulling.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Snarky

[Heraclea]

7 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

I have a question as someone who never got a Regen character far along. Is it the case that the set would do okay fighting a specific kind of enemy, and that kind of enemy is rare/doesn't exist? Or is Regen just numerically inferior, an Armor variety of the old Energy Melee?

Regen was nerfed several times from what it was at the game release.  But every subsequent nerf to an attack set based on animation times -- which was attractive to the old devs because it was impossible to build around -- was also a nerf to Regen.  

[Yomo Kimyata]

Imma making a broadsword/regen brute for Praetoria.  He's gonna rock!

[Rathulfr]

19 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Double-edged blade. Being a number crunching min/maxer can also cause us to see problems that interfere with our ability to just log in and have fun.

Or maybe that's just me.

 

No, it's me, too.  Sometimes I log in to a "sub-optimal" alt to start playing it for fun, and then I remember how much better it would be if it were (insert more optimal AT/set combo), and my enthusiasm just drains away.  I have to remind myself that I'm playing the char for "fun", not for optimization.

 

[Galaxy Brain]

7 hours ago, Snarky said:

Compare Regen to Invul for a sec.  Invul (without much argument) is out of the box tough as nails.  It has layered defenses.  Defense, Resists, and a Heal that massively buffs your health bar.  Also, it has great defense debuff resist.  Then you take I/Os.  With some study, a few buckets of cash, a Invul can be made unkillable.  With a weakness to Psi damage.

 

Regen....  is not that.  It is a GOOD armor set.  There are no 'bad' armor sets in the game.  But it is not diving into an endless tunnel of +4/x8 strong.  I/Os will make it stronger, built smart.  But it lacks the layered mitigation base that provides a foundation for the max levels powerbuilders seek.  So it gets a ton of shit.

 

My current main is a dark/dark Brute.  No inherent defense.  But Dark Armor has stealth (weird right?) and two Mez auras for stunning minions.  Layered defenses in a completely different way.  

 

Regen is one trick pony.  It is very good at what it does.  But it faces tough competition from sets that have 3-6 horses pulling.

 

This is a great way to put it, and while yes Regen has a niche when it comes to being equally good to "Damage" regardless of how it is applied, the reality is that such encounters are incredibly rare to the point of being almost a gimmick.

 

Lets actually eyeball Brute Regen vs Invuln against what I'd call an "MM" encounter with 3 minions, 2 lt's, and 1 boss.

 

Minions got 2 attacks with a 50% hit chance at base, which eyeballing a few enemy groups we will equate to ~24.38dps. x3 = 73.14dps

LTs got 4 attacks with a 57.5% hit chance at base, which eyeballing a few enemy groups we will equate to ~62.43dps. x2 = 124.89dps

Bosses got 6 attacks with a 65% hit chance at base, which eyeballing a few enemy groups we will equate to ~ 161.28dps

 

This is of course all averaged, assuming we are gonna put both brutes in a gauntlet that just has them fight these guys forever and ever and average the results. Lets see how both would behave over time with basic slotting (max values to HP/Res/Def/Rech) 

 

Regen:

Over time, regen will have:

 

14.86 res vs all (ignoring MoG since it's super hard to calculate with it's extreme stats on uptime/values)

119.38 HPS (all things averaged with 3-slotting stats / uptimes / spamming self heals)

2100 HP (Dull Pain over time, also integrated to the HPS)

 

With no inherent defenses, the Regen character will take the full brunt of the combined 359.28 DPS, reduced to 305.89 after resistances. Subtract the HPS from that, and you're left with 186.51 DPS to the character. 

 

2100 / 186.51 = ~12 seconds in this scenario.

 

 

Invuln:

Over time, invuln will have:

 

53.49% SL Res, 23.77% other res, 0 Psy res

19.02% def to all but Psy (in this 6-enemy example)

22.34 HPS

2100 HP (It has Dull Pain too!)

50% Def debuff res

25% End Res

20% Slow res

 

The inherent defenses will behave a bit differently thanks to the acc modifiers per rank, so lets adjust the incoming DPS per rank real quick:

 

Minions = 30.98% base hit chance = 45.3 dps

LT = 35.63% base hit chance = 77.36 dps

Boss = 40.27% base hit chance = 99.93 dps

 

Total DPS = 222.59

 

Now, with resistances we are either looking at 53.49% if they are SL damage or 23.77% for other damage types. Add in the HPS, and this reduces the final DPS down to either 81.19 SL or 147.34 other. 

 

2100 / 81.19 = ~26 seconds in this scenario. (2.17x regen)

2100 / 147.34 = ~14 seconds in this scenario. (1.17x regen)

2100 / 114.26 (avg) = ~18 seconds in this scenario. (1.5x regen)

 

 

As you add more Res/Def, Invuln gets sturdier even when you compare the meager 22.34 HPS to Regen's 119.38 HPS over infinite time. Of course, this is not "actual" but may as well be given that Instant Healing is on such a low uptime of only about 27%.

 

 

 

[Coyote]

Regen would be fine if it had DDR, but there's no rationale to giving DDR to a non-defense set.

 

It might also do well if MoG had its stats cut to 1/3 of what they are now... and it's uptime increased to 3x. A 45 second MoG... or better yet, one with 1/3 the Recharge so that it can reliably soak up the alpha strike on every spawn, would generally be fine.

 

As it is, it's really vulnerable to stacking -Def debuffs ramping up enemy damage, since its mitigation doesn't ramp up. So you have to worry about the alpha strike AND about the backloaded damage against enemy groups that stack -Def.

[Troo]

19 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

Or is Regen just numerically inferior, an Armor variety of the old Energy Melee?

BLASPHEMY!!

[Troo]

Brutes might not be the best to compare. Regen on scrappers might be more interesting.

 

Spoiler

2 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Lets actually eyeball Brute Regen vs Invuln against what I'd call an "MM" encounter with 3 minions, 2 lt's, and 1 boss.

 

 

There may be something off with the math as well. A brute getting smacked down in 12 seconds by 3 minions, 2 lt's, and 1 boss.. that just doesn't ring troo.

 

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Troo

[Spinal]

This thread is funny. I haven't made a regen melee on HC, because I played the piss out of it on live..... but it can't be as bad as you all say. Challenge accepted though, regen is my next hero.

 

Also, regen is great on a Sentinel, to the point that it's boring. Granted mine is slotted to the gills (and yes all heroes can be OP with a top end build).

 

Also #2, I can't believe SR got pulled into the convo, and suggested as worse then lowly regen. /eyeroll 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Spinal

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, Troo said:

Brutes might not be the best to compare. Regen on scrappers might be more interesting.

Itd be pretty much the same thing but less HP in this instance.

 

1 hour ago, Troo said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

There may be something off with the math as well. A brute getting smacked down in 12 seconds by 3 minions, 2 lt's, and 1 boss.. that just doesn't ring troo.

Its not "true" as the incoming DPS is treated like literal DPS. Itd take much longer in reality as there are gaps between the hits, you'd be fighting back, etc, but as a "score" imo it gets the point across.

[MoisesG]

I think Regen needs to be nerfed again, so we can ALL then agree it is the worst armor set.

[Troo]

Don't get me wrong @Galaxy Brain I am not saying regen will out survive invul just standing there, but 4x difference just doesn't make sense. Neither does lasting 12 sec with multiple heals available.

I'll do a quick anecdotal test.

 

Edit:

Yeah 12 seconds is an absurd statement no matter how many caveats. (time is a critical factor**)

On a Stalker with just 3 SOs only in the Secondary's Heal & Regen powers (nothing else, with no other powers on, no fighting back). I regularly got to hit Reconstruction more than once (36 sec rech). I did not make it to Dull Pain wearing off (2 min)

 

** Time is critical - in actual game play if I can make it 18ish seconds and have 1/2+ health.. death is a stranger.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Troo