Is Regen still worth playing?

[Bill Z Bubba]

14 minutes ago, Troo said:

I think it may have to do with how it stacks up to other scrapper armours vs brute armours.

Brute Armors = Scrapper Armors at base values.
Yes, they have higher caps but IF the regen caps are different and we know the HP caps are different then that still doesn't make a whole lotta sense.

If ALL > Regen on brutes, then ALL will also be > Regen on scrappers.

[Erratic1]

1 minute ago, Psyonico said:

I've got a 50 KM/Energy Aura brute that I quite enjoy... actually, part of the reason I picked it again is the whole "KM is teh sUXxORZs" thing.

 

It has issues. My first KM scrapper (KM/Shield back on live) was frustrating because by the time the T9 activated half the time someone else had killed the target.

 

Got a new one I'm levelling (KM/Bio) that is fun but will require sufficient IO loving that he's kinda sitting on the side while I work on other, less influence intensive projects.

 

[Werner]

7 minutes ago, Infinitum said:

Go ahead.  lol it won't take long for that to happen.

Haha. Yeah. I’m not out to prove anything, just have some fun. I may well enjoy the ride to 50, which I usually treat very differently from my play at 50. If I do enjoy it that long, I might poke at min/maxing him on beta. I’m expecting that if I do get that far, which is questionable, I’ll be like “yeah, this is trash”, and he’ll get shelved forever. But even the nostalgia factor could make it fun to level.

[Bill Z Bubba]

Between work and age, I'm gettin slow on the PL. Gonna take me at least 3 hours to PL this guy to 50. Then another hour in Mids... another hour slottin everything. Jeez, it's gonna be like tomorrow before I'm T4ed.

[UberGuy]

Very late to the party, but I certainly think Regen (and yes, I mean Regen, not WP) is worth playing. However, it is not for everyone. Who is Regen for? It's for people who actively enjoy a click intensive playstyle. I actually wish more powersets in CoH required this. I derive significant enjoyment from knowing that my success in combat actually consistently depends on knowing the right time to do something, whether proactively or reactively. Regen, at least played under stress, is far less likely to survive if you don't use the right powers at the right time.

 

While I was pissed when Regen was nerfed away from toggle IH back in the day, I actually am glad it was, because I discovered I enjoyed the "new" version's resulting playstyle a lot more. IMO, people who want toggle IH back should basically just play WP. It's not the same thing, but it's close.

At the time of the I4 nerfs I had one Regen. Now I have 3 level 50 Regens - two Scrappers and a Stalker. I have another level ~30 Regen Stalker, but it's pretty similar to one of the others so I may never get it to 50.

 

Notably, I have zero WPs. WP is the anti-Regen in terms of Playstyle. It has one click power whose recharge you can't even modify. It's not without its tactical requirements, but getting a lot of foes around you is pretty standard fare for melee characters, which mostly leaves killing the most dangerous things first, which is standard fare for everyone.

 

I'm not blind to Regen's limitations, and while I would not want its clicky playstyle removed, I do think the set could use some tweaks that would improve it. None, however can change the core challenge it faces. As others in the thread have mentioned, relying heavily on lost HP replacement to survive competes poorly with both high +Defense and +Resist, because of how their benefits scale with increasing value. Increasing HP replacement / time offsets incoming DPS in a linear way - 1 HP/s recovered survives 1/HP/s of damage suffered, while Def/Res have a (1-1/X) impact on your time-to-defeat. That's hard math that won't change without radical changes to the combat system (which I would not advocate, for reasons mentioned about why this game is fun after ~17 years). To compete, Regen has to follow some fairly narrow build paths to crank its defense and resist, even in bursts, so that its other tools can keep up. (Note that I don't consider it a requirement to pair Regen with specific primaries, like Kat/ or BS/, but it definitely can take some of the build pressure off if you do.)

 

I'm OK with that.

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by UberGuy

[Infinitum]

8 minutes ago, Werner said:

Haha. Yeah. I’m not out to prove anything, just have some fun. I may well enjoy the ride to 50, which I usually treat very differently from my play at 50. If I do enjoy it that long, I might poke at min/maxing him on beta. I’m expecting that if I do get that far, which is questionable, I’ll be like “yeah, this is trash”, and he’ll get shelved forever. But even the nostalgia factor could make it fun to level.

Well back when new EM was in beta I had the hairbrained idea to try a EM Regen Brute - and others warned me, but my thouhts were - nah I can figure this out because enough time and investment I can make most sets work.

 

So I tried a few challenges - starting with the first maria jekins mission with infernal.  First few tries I faceplanted hard, then I got the hang of the timing of the clicks and actually got pretty good at that - next I went to the ITF - and that wasnt pretty, any thing more than one standard spawn size will.... Eat.... You.... Alive and on the standard size you are sweating that.

 

What made me delete and electroshock my frontal lobe to forget I ever had the idea was a AE mission Monos showed me that just wasnt right - other characters I have are just fine in it - but with regen its the equivalent of pushing someone in a wheel chair off a pier. 

 

So yeah abandon all hope ye who enter here.... And just roll a willpower.  lol

Edited March 5, 2021 by Infinitum

[Troo]

2 hours ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

More HP does make regen better. By the numbers Brute Regen > Scrapper Regen.

I suspect, as GB just stated, that a lot go the scrapper route due to Deadpool/Wolverine reasons.

I think it may have to do with how it stacks up to other scrapper armours vs brute armours.

 

1 hour ago, Galaxy Brain said:

No, its a good reason. 

 

If set A requires you to manage clicks, timing, environmental pressures encounter to encounter to get by which takes away focus from your other powers, then set B gets the same if not better defensive power without such sacrifice then yeah set A needs help since you spend much more effort for nothing.

Sounds a lot like all need to be the same.

 

Yes regen is clicky and requires attention.

Some players like that. Some folks enjoy that there is at least a little skill and/or timing involved. For those who don't like clicky, there is a solution already in place.

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

1 minute ago, Troo said:

Sounds a lot like all need to be the same.

No, it's really not that. It's that mastery with regen will still be less than mediocre talent with any other set. That's the point we're trying to get across.

[UberGuy]

To be fair, there are plenty of sets that will flat out die hardcore if you fiteclub with 54/x8 spawns of Cimerorans, especially at Scrapper/Stalker resist caps. If you don't have high DDR, they will floor your defense due to cascade failure, and then you're screwed. Brutes and Tankers have less to worry about against them if they can at least cap their L/S resists.

 

Personally, I think the worst non-Rularuu foes for anyone vulnerable to -def are not Cimeorans, but L45+ PPD Quantums. That's ranged -def attached to energy damage. A x8 spawn of those is pretty damn horrible. Prae Resistance and L45+ Family get a nod here too, for the same reasons, but the PPD are a bit more focused about piling the energy defense strippage on you. Only villains really need to deal with PPD ever, though.

 

L54 Rularuu, of course, are very few build's idea of fun.

[nihilii]

10 minutes ago, UberGuy said:

Personally, I think the worst non-Rularuu foes for anyone vulnerable to -def are not Cimeorans, but L45+ PPD Quantums. That's ranged -def attached to energy damage. A x8 spawn of those is pretty damn horrible.

Truth right there. Plus, the PPD Cataphract has this toxic grenade that throws you into an unresistable puke animation. When this happens while the rest of the boys trash your defense all the way to -100%, you're as good as dead.

[Troo]

15 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

No, it's really not that. It's that mastery with regen will still be less than mediocre talent with any other set. That's the point we're trying to get across.

The only place this might be true is at very high level solo game play. Beyond that, with IO sets and incarnates the notion is simply poppycock and splitting hairs. (gently pushing back while getting to use poppycock)

 

Is it the best numerically = no. (note: this is not true across the board, there are cases)

Does it work and can it be fun = yes.

 

Designing 'fun' in a spreadsheet is a mistake.

 

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Troo

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Troo said:

The only place this might be true is at very high level solo game play. Beyond that, with IO sets and incarnates the notion is simply poppycock and splitting hairs.

 

Is it the best numerically = no. (note: this is not true across the board, there are cases)

Does it work and can it be fun = yes.

Math is always true.

 

1 minute ago, Troo said:

Designing 'fun' in a spreadsheet is a mistake.

Arguably true. As is "balancing things properly can increase fun for everyone."

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, nihilii said:

Truth right there. Plus, the PPD Cataphract has this toxic grenade that throws you into an unresistable puke animation. When this happens while the rest of the boys trash your defense all the way to -100%, you're as good as dead.

Been there on Max's mission in DA sooooo many times.

 

Course, my SR users laughed at everything but the unresistable puke thing.

[Hew]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

its the equivalent of pushing someone in a wheel chair off a pier...

 

 

down by the river, livin' in a van

[Psyonico]

[Infinitum]

Chris Farley as Regen to Willpower and Bio

 

[Galaxy Brain]

40 minutes ago, Troo said:

Sounds a lot like all need to be the same.

 

Yes regen is clicky and requires attention.

Some players like that. Some folks enjoy that there is at least a little skill and/or timing involved. For those who don't like clicky, there is a solution already in place.

 

It should not be the same, my main problem with it is that it IS FUN! But.... then I realize all this effort could be circumvented if I had a different armor set for much the same payoff if not more where those extra clicks could be made into attacks and I could be more more effective.

 

Related experience was challenging myself by taking an Empathy/Assault Rifle defender through the Night Shift arc solo to see what that was like on SO's at lvl 20. I could do it! But, it took a lot of effort in terms of player tricks (kiting, corner pulls, LoS, etc) to do what I am sure a Scrapper or Sentinel could have just done by plowing on ahead. 

 

Same result, but vastly different effort.

 

 

However, part of this is due to the "test" itself. A good anecdote is that you wouldn't grade all the animals on how they climb a tree, the monkey will win and the fish stands no chance. If there are multiple tests, but the only water available is a puddle... then yeah the fish is out of luck despite it being a participant. Similarly, I was able to complete the missions with a terrible combo for Solo Play, but it was still out of it's element much like how a /Regen would be able to protect you but not as well as some other armors simply because it is not within it's niche.

 

Invuln laughs at SL, Fire laughs at Fire and provides a ton of offensive synergy, Elec laughs at end drain, etc, etc, etc... but Regen doesn't seem to have as common a space where it can shine. Its actually similar to SR in a regard where it doesn't *really* care about what kinds of enemies you face, but the game mechanics favor SR more than it does Regen (plus all that DDR gives it a niche). There's VERY few encounters where the ability to take sustained damage non-stop is a factor, maps where there are environmental hazards like active fires / poison gas / special enemies with untyped damage / etc that would actually FAVOR the ability to heal really fast are not on the test as often as "survive all this SL damage / end drains / etc", stacking the odds against it given that all the other sets have lots of chances to strut their stuff compared to it. 

 

 

[Hew]

I like the idea of making regen the ultimate anti-debuff. I would consider playing something like that.

[Snarky]

22 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

 

 

 

Invuln laughs at SL, 

 

 

Invul does not realize S/L exists, laughs at everything else beside Psi.  At Psi Invul is like...so this is what everyone else feels all the time?!?

[SwitchFade]

1 minute ago, Snarky said:

Invul does not realize S/L exists, laughs at everything else beside Psi.  At Psi Invul is like...so this is what everyone else feels all the time?!?

Then you work out your build and invuln gets to 80 psi resist with 90-80 everything else.

 

Aw, clock CUDDLEking!

[Snarky]

2 minutes ago, SwitchFade said:

Then you work out your build and invuln gets to 80 psi resist with 90-80 everything else.

 

Aw, clock CUDDLEking!

you could, ....but its not worth chasing psi resist for the % of the game it is an issue.  carry some purples and oranges and don't be lead tank on those runs.  prob solved

[Galaxy Brain]

More to @Troo's point as I got cut off:

 

The ability to have drastically different playstyles is amazing, and contributes to a huge pool of fun. The issue is when you have certain playstyle options that, when it comes to objective ability, trump other playstyles. Look at the knocks against Sentinels and Crowd control AT's: you can build other characters tough enough to not need CC for protection / cover yourself well enough to where your raw damage outpaces the other AT while being "tough enough".  Regen has sort of the opposite problem where all other armors are relatively tough enough if not tougher without having to work as hard. 

 

Even looking away from that, the set itself has weaknesses that really screw with how you wanna use it. Any slows will mess you up hard, the fact that your heals are not instant make it so your key ability to reactively heal is impacted at times, and with the cooldowns on many abilities you have to be able to predict beforehand when to use an ability (mainly for IH) in order to adequately use it, and there many be many times where it is just the wrong call and you "waste" your power. 

[Bill Z Bubba]

15 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

Even looking away from that, the set itself has weaknesses that really screw with how you wanna use it. Any slows will mess you up hard

Meant to hit on this point earlier as prep for my build.

 

Seems I should lean heavily on winter IOs for -recharge debuff resistance.

Go max recharge for both the ST attack chain AND the click heals.

Ramp up melee defense as much as possible.

 

Is it agreed by all that these are the priorities?

[Haijinx]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Meant to hit on this point earlier as prep for my build.

 

Seems I should lean heavily on winter IOs for -recharge debuff resistance.

Go max recharge for both the ST attack chain AND the click heals.

Ramp up melee defense as much as possible.

 

Is it agreed by all that these are the priorities?

Just easier to go SR.  With a nice slow resist built in as a bonus 

[Bill Z Bubba]

4 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Just easier to go SR.  With a nice slow resist built in as a bonus 

Nonononono.

We know SR is vastly superior. We're trying to make regen as good as possible to COMPARE to other sets.