Federated Servers + Centralized Character Database Participation?

[Marstead]

TL;DR: Is there any reason to hope that the HC team will eventually participate in this federated server/centralized character database project? If not, why?

 

Hey everyone, there's a reddit thread today about the community initiative to created federated servers and a centralized character database to protect players against shutdowns, mass migration of the community, etc.

 

https://old.reddit.com/r/Cityofheroes/comments/budmms/why_i_chose_the_rebirth_server_and_also_some/

 

I am enjoying Homecoming and I25, but these these sound like really good ideas. If there's one thing I care about more than anything else, it's the integrity of the characters I've created (on any of the existing fan servers) and confidence that those characters will never be permanently lost again.

 

Have the Homecoming developers commented about participating in these two initiatives in particular?

 

I'm really hopeful for a future where the HC folks can keep doing their own thing with I25 and beyond, but that everyone including HC still participates in this initiative. For example, I'd like to be able to transfer characters out of and back onto Homecoming, if that becomes possible through this initiative. I know a lot of that process will be difficult -- some things will be impossible to transfer, like archetypes found only in I25, and servers would be right to reject things like enhancements and salvage crossing servers.

 

I hope if the HC team intend to *never* participate in this initiative, that there is a very good reason for it. Thanks!

 

EDIT: subbacultchas pointed out that above closing sentence is a little harsh; I'm not out to stir up trouble here! It seems like the Homecoming team is very rational and just interested in bringing back a game we all love. So by that I just mean, if they don't plan to participate in this, I assume they have a good reason for it (and it'd be good to know what it is!)

[_NOPE_]

+1. As soon as I saw that NCSoft used a centralized authentication server that was removed from the main game severs... I knew something like this was possible, and I think it would be a really GOOD idea for all of the disparate teams to get together and, if they won't share a single character database, at least agree on a single "protocol"/API that could be used by all parties involved to export/import characters from one server to another... some tool that would allow this to happen, but not allow "cheating" by messing with the exported files. Sentinel+ might be capable of this, I don't know... but I think it would be a good idea.

[subbacultchas]

I am definitely not against this, I do like the idea quite a bit. I don't know if it will be well received, especially given the imperative nature of the closing sentence.

 

Good luck man.

[Marstead]

I am definitely not against this, I do like the idea quite a bit. I don't know if it will be well received, especially given the imperative nature of the closing sentence.

 

Good luck man.

 

Hey there,

 

I think the reddit thread I linked is more confrontational than I'd like it to be, and I certainly don't want to stir up anything -- I really just want to know if this is never going to happen, and if it's not, I assume the HC folks have a good reason for that. Because to my layperson reading, I can't see any risk in it? Looks like all upside for everybody.

[justicebeliever]

My concern about a single character repository is that makes a ripe target for someone to shut down multiple servers at once.  I love the idea of a universal standard for import/export of a character from one server to another, but would be concerned about all the eggs in one basket.

[MunkiLord]

I like the idea of this, but for me it would depend on how it would impact characters already made and if it would change XP gain or anything else. Currently, Homecoming is set up to allow quick leveling and gathering of other resources. If that would have to change in order to be in on something like that, I would not want that to happen.

[subbacultchas]

I am definitely not against this, I do like the idea quite a bit. I don't know if it will be well received, especially given the imperative nature of the closing sentence.

 

Good luck man.

 

Hey there,

 

I think the reddit thread I linked is more confrontational than I'd like it to be, and I certainly don't want to stir up anything -- I really just want to know if this is never going to happen, and if it's not, I assume the HC folks have a good reason for that. Because to my layperson reading, I can't see any risk in it? Looks like all upside for everybody.

No worries man. That last line is just something I grew up hearing, knowing it meant, "Do this or consequences will follow." I really mean good luck to you, I think this is a solid idea.

[jubakumbi]

What I don't understand is why people think the people spending (all of) their free time keeping the game running, playing it, and setting aside some time to passion-project improve it, need to keep answering a string of questions about every single little detail that arm-chair developers can make up to add to the game.

 

The entire _idea_ of some sacrosant character authority where all CoX characters can live on in eternity ia awesome.

So is solving a ton of things.

 

How about we let the servers get stable, the various server runners do thier thing as they like and let them be, rather than trying to pin them down on things companies with hundreds of employees and budgets won't directly commit to, hm?

 

Just sayin'.

 

PS: Someone has now posted in that reddit thread questioning if the HC server are 'OK' to play on...misinformation just breeds...

[The Fifth Horseman]

We do not plan to use an authentication server outside of Homecoming's own network. Using our own authentication server means that we are free to integrate game accounts with our other systems (such as our support system and website) and means that we can be sure that nothing will happen to our user's accounts :)

[Frakk]

My concern about a single character repository is that makes a ripe target for someone to shut down multiple servers at once.  I love the idea of a universal standard for import/export of a character from one server to another, but would be concerned about all the eggs in one basket.

 

100% agree

 

[Wild Claw]

Technical question:

 

Can a centralized character repository work if the different servers are on different versions of the game? In other words, does having i24, i24+mods, i25, i25+mods, etc. characters all use the exact same repository structure, or are there compatibility issues?

[Saikochoro]

Honestly, in my opinion, the only reason to consider something like this is if homecoming were to be shutdown with a C&D. Otherwise, there not really a point. The mass majority of the population is in a central location already (homecoming). I like pretty much all of the changes that have been made and would hate for homecoming to have to change something on their own servers to accommodate other servers.

 

Plus it seems unlikely that it would be fully compatible due to some of the differences in i25 vs i24. So even if homecoming were to be targeted with a C&D, it’s unlikely that people would be able to keep all of their characters (perhaps even none of them if they zeroed in on sentinels and new powersets) if a central repository were made. So they’d likely have to start from scratch on a new server anyway. Seems like it would be time better spent on other projects to further improve homecomings own servers.

[Rylas]

My concern about a single character repository is that makes a ripe target for someone to shut down multiple servers at once.  I love the idea of a universal standard for import/export of a character from one server to another, but would be concerned about all the eggs in one basket.

 

Pretty much my thoughts. Standard import/export, but decentralized files. Let it be something encrypted that the bigger server groups can make use of, but not something people can tamper with to boost their character.

[Marstead]

What I don't understand is why people think the people spending (all of) their free time keeping the game running, playing it, and setting aside some time to passion-project improve it, need to keep answering a string of questions about every single little detail that arm-chair developers can make up to add to the game.

 

The entire _idea_ of some sacrosant character authority where all CoX characters can live on in eternity ia awesome.

So is solving a ton of things.

 

How about we let the servers get stable, the various server runners do thier thing as they like and let them be, rather than trying to pin them down on things companies with hundreds of employees and budgets won't directly commit to, hm?

 

Just sayin'.

 

PS: Someone has now posted in that reddit thread questioning if the HC server are 'OK' to play on...misinformation just breeds...

 

You raise a good point -- I like to talk about how gamers love their "Why don't they just?" questions, and usually there's a good reason why they don't just. I guess my fear is that players are taking up a very aggressive attitude with the Homecoming devs, and I worried that the bad blood directed against the HC team is going to make them reasonably hesitant to participate in stuff like this. Even just hearing "It's possible, but we don't have time to focus on it right now" would help a lot, since there's already momentum on this particular issue. I think people are interpreting HC's lack of comment in this area as an unwillingness to participate, which is those folks' fault for reading too much into a non-answer, but it can also be resolved pretty quickly with a "Maybe, but not yet".

[Marstead]

Technical question:

 

Can a centralized character repository work if the different servers are on different versions of the game? In other words, does having i24, i24+mods, i25, i25+mods, etc. characters all use the exact same repository structure, or are there compatibility issues?

 

I think the way you handle this is individual servers have different rules for import. Perhaps Server A won't allow enhancements from other servers because they are much easier to craft, or influence because it's easier to gain, etc. Honestly I wouldn't really mind if I was only allowed to import the character itself with its security level + costume, some key badges that don't upset balance or which aren't significantly easier or more difficult to farm for across servers, and nothing else.

 

As far as importing things like ATs that don't exist on the target server, these could convert on transfer according to a data table. For example, Sentinels become Blasters, and their secondaries convert to a legal secondary on the list.

 

The way I see it happening, Homecoming becomes the laissez-faire sandbox server, and therefore has virtually nonexistent import requirements. Every other server has stricter import requirements about what it will and won't accept for import. In cases of fundamental database clashes (nonexistest ATs, badges, etc) that data is either deleted entirely or converted to legal data.

[Dr. Gemini]

I would think that there would be no means of keeping people from editing their characters unless there were a central server they were held on. Anything that exists solely on one person's computer can be hacked. The Homecoming team should not be expected to either set up and finance a central server nor to alternatively develop software that can facilitate character transfers. The people who want this should be the ones prepared to finance/develop the tools and this kind of request should be more of the "if the tools exist would you allow it" kind.

[Marstead]

I would think that there would be no means of keeping people from editing their characters unless there were a central server they were held on. Anything that exists solely on one person's computer can be hacked. The Homecoming team should not be expected to either set up and finance a central server nor to alternatively develop software that can facilitate character transfers. The people who want this should be the ones prepared to finance/develop the tools and this kind of request should be more of the "if the tools exist would you allow it" kind.

 

Yes I think that is very fair. The reddit post I linked to and the general attitude outside Homecoming seems to be that because HC doesn't want to devote resources to doing this, that they won't cooperate when it's done. I think a "Hey, if you get it working, we'll think about it" would set a lot of minds at ease.

[The Fifth Horseman]

Yes I think that is very fair. The reddit post I linked to and the general attitude outside Homecoming seems to be that because HC doesn't want to devote resources to doing this, that they won't cooperate when it's done. I think a "Hey, if you get it working, we'll think about it" would set a lot of minds at ease.

A single shared authentication service / character database is a single point of failure. The reason NCSoft had no issue using one was because they fully controlled it. That would not be the case here.

• If someone compromises it, every user of the connected servers is fucked - and it's a big, juicy target with more value the more servers opt into it.
  
• If it goes down, every connected server is fucked. And you can expect that to result even from something as simple as being overloaded.
  

 

 

[Solvernia]

imagine if the guy who ran the auth server or owned the character database decided "hey i don't like X server anymore" and cut them off

 

bad times ahead lads

[Zep]

I like the idea of a common BACKUP server that could also be used for character transfer between comparable COH worlds. Someone would prob hack it and cause problems though :(

[Guest jordan_yen]

My concern about a single character repository is that makes a ripe target for someone to shut down multiple servers at once.  I love the idea of a universal standard for import/export of a character from one server to another, but would be concerned about all the eggs in one basket.

 

Pretty much my thoughts. Standard import/export, but decentralized files. Let it be something encrypted that the bigger server groups can make use of, but not something people can tamper with to boost their character.

 

Wasn't the point that the code would all be original? How would they sue over that?

[Guest jordan_yen]

I would think that there would be no means of keeping people from editing their characters unless there were a central server they were held on. Anything that exists solely on one person's computer can be hacked. The Homecoming team should not be expected to either set up and finance a central server nor to alternatively develop software that can facilitate character transfers. The people who want this should be the ones prepared to finance/develop the tools and this kind of request should be more of the "if the tools exist would you allow it" kind.

 

Yes I think that is very fair. The reddit post I linked to and the general attitude outside Homecoming seems to be that because HC doesn't want to devote resources to doing this, that they won't cooperate when it's done. I think a "Hey, if you get it working, we'll think about it" would set a lot of minds at ease.

 

There's a lot of us vs them in this thread that I'm seeing. Why is it that if someone doesn't like Homecoming's policies that they have to be labeled as some kind of hack or tinhat? I left homecoming early over the export issue personally and that's not about politics or drama, it's about character permanence which matters to me a lot more than a big community.

[_NOPE_]

Apparently you didn't leave...

[justicebeliever]

My concern about a single character repository is that makes a ripe target for someone to shut down multiple servers at once.  I love the idea of a universal standard for import/export of a character from one server to another, but would be concerned about all the eggs in one basket.

 

Pretty much my thoughts. Standard import/export, but decentralized files. Let it be something encrypted that the bigger server groups can make use of, but not something people can tamper with to boost their character.

 

Wasn't the point that the code would all be original? How would they sue over that?

 

Assuming the “they” you reference is NCSoft, only a small % of the code is original, and all of that is sitting directly on top of NCSoft's opyrighted code, and trademarked assets.  Let me know if this isn't what you where refering to, or if the answer makes sense

[golstat2003]

I would think that there would be no means of keeping people from editing their characters unless there were a central server they were held on. Anything that exists solely on one person's computer can be hacked. The Homecoming team should not be expected to either set up and finance a central server nor to alternatively develop software that can facilitate character transfers. The people who want this should be the ones prepared to finance/develop the tools and this kind of request should be more of the "if the tools exist would you allow it" kind.

 

Yes I think that is very fair. The reddit post I linked to and the general attitude outside Homecoming seems to be that because HC doesn't want to devote resources to doing this, that they won't cooperate when it's done. I think a "Hey, if you get it working, we'll think about it" would set a lot of minds at ease.

 

There's a lot of us vs them in this thread that I'm seeing. Why is it that if someone doesn't like Homecoming's policies that they have to be labeled as some kind of hack or tinhat? I left homecoming early over the export issue personally and that's not about politics or drama, it's about character permanence which matters to me a lot more than a big community.

 

Until NSCOFT comes in and says this is all good and we're never eeeeeever (Chris Jericho reference lol) shutting this down again, forget your character permanence and just have fun. I don't care what server you are on, right now we are all able to play because NCSOFT has not yet decided this is a problem. IF they ever do it won't matter what server you're on. I'm mean you'll have a nice backup of your character (when/if each of the servers implement that feature) sitting somewhere in data/1s and 0s form. . . and that's about it.